Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Completed Shows' started by RevantheJediMaster, Jul 15, 2005.
Shout it loud and proud so everyone in the back can hear.
I can't stand the art style of TCW, but I got curious and watched a brief youtube clip of the fight between Maul and Savage Opress vs Sidious (I tried to avoid looking at Sidious's face because it looks disgusting lol). Can someone please fill me in on what Maul was trying to do before Sidious showed up?
I read that he was killing innocents to attract the attention of the Jedi so he can get revenge on Obi Wan? Also he was amassing forces because he had ambitions? But if he attracted the attention on the Jedi then of course Sidious would find out too (I'm assuming that Maul knows that Sidious is the Chancellor), and if he was amassing his own forces without reporting to Sidious then he's obviously making himself very suspicious, to say the least. So he should expect Sidious to come sooner or later right?
But in the video when he sensed Sidious's presence, he seemed so scared. And when Sidious got in, Maul acted subserviently. It didn't seem like Maul was ready for a fight at all.
So what was Maul trying to do then? Did he think he could do everything he did undetected by Sidious? Or did he think the place he was at is an ideal hiding place that Sidious would never find? Did Maul expect a conflict with Sidious eventually (maybe after he became more powerful)?
The thing with Maul killing innocents to draw out Obi-Wan came right after his resurrection. After that he attempts an amassing of crime factions and takeover of Mandalore, using the chaos of war to unite these factions and create a criminal empire with him at his head. Mandalore, where he makes his base, is a neutral system, unaffiliated with either Separatists or Republic, making it safe from attack (but liable to criminal corruption). Though Maul feigns subservience when Sidious arrives, its evident by the fact he didn't immediately go to his master that he's trying to stay hidden (plus his disdain for his 'replacement' Dooku).
So overall, Maul was establishing a powerbase under the radar, outside of the Clone Wars where he could prepare for either the Jedi or Sith finding and attacking. His only error was not expecting Sidious to show up as soon as he did, as he'd only just established his powerbase, eliminated some trace resistance, and dealt with his latent rivalry with Obi-Wan. He wasn't quite ready to fend off his master, though his supporters do later free him from imprisonment under Sidious.
So the fact that Maul survived and is killing innocents (to lure out Obi Wan) is public, while the fact that he is establishing a powerbase (for his ambitions) was supposed to be a secret from both the Jedi and Sidious. Unfortunately for Maul, Sidious not only figured out what he was doing, but also found his exact location far earlier than Maul expected. Is my understanding correct?
Yeah, pretty much, though the extent of knowledge around his public killings may be small. It's an out of the way planet and he sends a direct threat message to the Jedi, exactly so Sidious wouldn't immediately discover his existence or location. The rest is all correct.
Ok that makes sense. Thank you!
Ok we had this interesting discussion in the Boba Fett- thread that belongs here. About the role of George Lucas, Dave Filoni and Jon Favreau in creating a new post-EU canon. Project started with TCW and continued in Rebels and now moved into live-action Star Wars under Disney- era. I think Filoni is the central figure after Lucas sold SW to Disney and I think his vision is seen in everything except the sequels that were sort of weird project anyway...
I also criticized Filoni a bit. At times he (and/or he and Favreau) seems to be writing sort of fan-fiction really. It appears to me Filoni has certain areas of interest in Star Wars he is interested in more than others. This includes mandalorians, Ahsoka, deep force mysteries and addition of wolves whenever possible. I could add clones, especially Rex to that list.
Rehabilitation of Boba Fett as a good guy may be part of this vision too, but that discussion doesn't belong here.
I mentioned there are some small inconsistencies and creative differences in TCW that reveal that visions of Lucas and Filoni did even clash at times. They are small though and Dave clearly respects George a lot. But I explain what I meant here.
Matter number 1. Trade Federation and Banking Clan neutrality inconsistency
Lucas was heavily involved in process of making TCW, but it seems his involvement grew after season 1. when episodes aired there were a lot of confusion surrounding status of Trade Federation and Banking Clan neutrality in the war. During season 1 no mention of any such neutrality took place. Trade Federation and Banking Clan are even mentioned as mere part of separatists and also shown as such. This was in line with EU. Later big deal was made about them being neutral, which was order directly from George Lucas. He even told not to use trade fed ships anymore in separatist fleet after season 4 and personally designed new ship to replace it. This was revisionist and confusing since seasons 1-3 portrayed trade fed ships as part of CIS fleet and they also appear in ROTS.
Matter number 2. Mandalorian reimagined and concept of darksaber vs. the concept of Beskar inconsistency
Mandalore and Mandalorian appearance was a large change to EU and while not inconsistent in itself there was apparently some creative differences too. One them was darksaber. Lucas insisted that lightsaber must not be blocked by what looks like "ordinary sword". That's why Pre Viszlas vibroblade became black lightsaber. This is inconsistent with the use of beskar weapons in mandalorian where ordinary spear does block lightsaber.
Matter number 3. Maul's return, creative differences
It seems that Lucas insisted this and Dave grudgingly accepted to it.
Matter number 4. Order 66 and Rex, possibly Dave's own decision
First I need to say that order 66 was rather well done in TCW season 7. It is bit unclear whether or not Lucas already thought back in ROTS that clones have special way to react to order 66 and they have programmed specially to that emergency order than all the rest. This was explained in Fives- arc and carried over to season 7 and Rebels and Bad Batch too that inhibitor chip is what makes clones to be unable to resist order 66 .
But I'm not so sure that Lucas insisted that Rex (never mind Wolffe) needs to survive. Maybe he did, but I'm not so sure. I feel like this was probably Dave's decision. Is there some good documentary or such about this? It seems to me that possibly Dave Filoni is personally just liking Rex and Ahsoka so much he didn't want to kill neither. I wonder if Lucas had any plans to Ahsoka when he created the character for TCW.
Rebels had both characters so Dave needed to explain how they survived order 66. It is notable how differently clones who receive order 66 act towards them than towards other "traitors" though, they don't open fire immediately, but act much slower and give them time to escape. It is usual movie/tv trope though, sort of character shield that only applies to main characters than needs to survive for story to continue. But seems like a minor internal inconsistency to me.
He didn't say not to use "Trade Federation" ships (the corporations are supplying the Separatists), what he wanted was to create more visual distinction between the two, to the point where a new separatist ship design was created. Separatist ships supplied by the corporations have separatists markings, and that's true in ROTS and all seasons of TCW. A Trade Federation ship (as in, one officially employed by and representing the Trade Federation) doesn't have Separatist markings. Same for the other corporations.
The idea that the corporations are not the Separatists is established in AOTC. It was the EU at the time that went in another direction.
I don't recall any grudge from Filoni in regards to Lucas decision to bring back Darth Maul. But yes, it was something that George decided.
Other than Lucas being more inclined for Ahsoka to die (in contrast to Filoni who wanted her to live), there's not any information on how Lucas would have locked the fate of any of those characters or even on how he would have concluded the series itself.
As far as Order 66 goes, the inhibitor chip is not something that exists only for Order 66, but is part of the bio-manipulation that makes the clones more obedient, docile and less independent than Jango Fett. Lucas had explained Filoni from the very beginning that as far as the clones go, the execution of Order 66 was something akin to the Manchurian Candidate. The trigger is a direct command from Darth Sidious to execute that order.
Yes, but it seems that all that info about "neutrality" was not fully explained when they were making season 1. There was no mention of neutrality, and Padmé even mentions "Banking clan possibly leaving the separatists" in Destroy the Malevolence. It was all lie of course, and could be explained away, but seems to me that it was not really until Season 3 episodes where this neutrality was established and explained by Lucas to Filoni and the rest of the team. There was a lot of confusion about neutrality-thing when those episodes came out. I didn't find it too confusing myself, but I saw it as minor inconsistency with how TCW season one seemed to follow EU in which all corporations openly joined separatists. I think it means that Lucas possibly became even more directly involved after season 1. Maybe those few details just escaped him during season 1 though. I personally found it disappointing that we stopped seeing new separatist council members after Poggle was introduced during season 2.
We never saw Shu Mai, Tikkes, Po Nudo, Passel Argente or even San Hill. We saw some other members of their species (except Koorivars).My single biggest disappointment in TCW. I liked designs of these characters and would've liked to see more of them.
He couldn't really criticize his boss openly I think, but I sort of saw that in interviews at the time that he at least doubted it would be perhaps too risky and fans may not necessarily like it. Maybe I just imagined it. Way how he got rid of Maul in Rebels
Actually Maul proved to be really interesting character. But I didn't like the way he was introduced, spider-monster thing was bit too weird IMO and that snake-character was so irritating.
Yes, but story-wise it is really all about order 66 after all. It was the grand deception.
I sort of feel like Lucas was revisionist at least what came to clones. He at some point seems to have been intended clones became stormtroopers and stormtroopers were possibly even clones. The whole joke of Jango hitting his head to door in AOTC just like a stormtrooper in ANH did by accident. Then he changed his mind obviously, stormtroopers are all volunteers after all. Filoni also seems to be very keen on making stormtroopers and clones as separate as possible and clones as good guys as possible.
I guess that is something that is quite understandable, clones being major protagonists in TCW, would be weird if they would all become bad guys, but I cannot help but to feel Filoni has perhaps just personal attachment to at least certain clones like Rex and Wolffe. Sometimes it is a burden for a story if storyteller becomes too personally attached to characters. Like "I don't want to hurt them" or even worse "I want them to be perfect". Yet Filoni has made rather good decisions with Ahsoka and Rex, even though saving Ahsoka in Rebels through that time jump thing was... questionable.
I don't understand. There was no mention of neutrality or lack thereof. It simply wasn't what the story was about in those episodes.
I don't see the inconsistency. The Separatists (represented by Dooku) did make a deal with the corporations. This is established in AOTC. That doesn't make those same corporations separatists.
Even Padmé guesses that the separatists will seek the help of the corporations if the Republic does create an army.
Maybe, because he never showed any grudge whatsoever, only surprise.
The story of that arc was about Order 66, but the chip had multiple purposes.
Originally, the stormtroopers were clones but were eventually phased out due to their nature.
You're taking the joke too literally. The Republic army did become the Imperial army. The clones did become imperial stormtroopers. But as time went on, they were replaced and regular people were simply drafted.
Star Wars: The Clone Wars - The 10 Best Characters Who Appeared In Only One Episode
It's up for debate of course; but I'm just glad that Numa got some acknowledgement in this list. #NERAMEANSBROTHER
Why "The Siege of Mandalore" Is the Clone Wars Movie We Needed
This op-ed pretty much tells us everything we already know about the four-episode arc at the end of Season 7. Why, for all intents and purposes, it's among the best pure storytelling of the franchise in decades.
I would still love to see more 'Lost Missions' to fill in some of the missing story arcs. Son of Dathomir and Dark Disciple are essential story arcs and I just really want to see Kashyyyk, Bounty Hunters, & Crystal Crisis fully animated.
As for the blu-ray question, I doubt it's going to happen anytime soon, but in the future I really hope they release the Disney+ originals in physical media. I would very much like to have a complete collection.
If a separate Blu-ray was released with the lost story arcs like SOD and DD, I'd buy it immediately, and I don't really by Blu-rays anymore. But those stories were already told in book and comic form, so I'd doubt they'd go back to re-filming them.
From what I remember, it was that Lucas specifically did not want an ordinary sword to block lightsabers. Other weapons were acceptable - Lucas himself included lightsaber blocking electrostaffs after all.
The issue was regular metal weapons (even more so a sword) resisting lightsabers. The electrostaffs have energy beams that block the lightsaber, it's not the metal that does it. If you apply the same logic with a metal sword, you're doing a lightsaber again, which makes it redundant.
The corporation “neutrality” situation is a right mess, Lucas himself was on board with Corporations being mostly all in with the Separatists by the time of TCW season 1 - I mean in the episode commentary for the Ryloth arc it was mentioned that it was Lucas’s idea for Wat Tambor to be given the title of Emir.
I get that during AOTC it was implied that some of the corporations sit in the middle, although Nute Gunray seemed to be a full on Separatist because he seemed very concerned about the Republic gaining an army so quickly, if he was just war profiteer, he wouldn’t have been at all fazed by the Republic army showing up on Geonosis because it would have all been a part of the plan.
To me it looks like Lucas changed his mind and decided he wanted to retcon what was set up in TCW Season 1, sadly this meant that TCW team mostly avoided using CIS council Leaders moving forward even including Gunray “because they didn’t want to mess with continuity” and “they aren’t war generals” even though Wat Tambor was clearly portrayed that way in the Ryloth arc.
I think they mostly avoided CIS council leaders to avoid having to explain and acknowledge the mess they made. It is a real shame though because they were good villains and there was a lot of wasted potential for good stories.
How is it a mess? The corporations made a secret treaty with the separatists (represented by Dooku). Wat Tambor, Nute Gunray, etc are allied with the separatists ever since AOTC. That never changed.
Nute Gunray is concerned because he was not counting on the Republic having an army, but on a Separatist takeover of the Republic. That's what Dooku explains in AOTC.
How and when was he portrayed as a war general? He's given a ruling position on Ryloth. An Emir is like a prince or governor.
There's nothing in the first season of TCW that contradicts the fact that the Separatists and corporations are different entities.
There would have to be a mess to begin with.
The Leaders of the corporations are clearly Separatists allies so how can those Corporations still claim neutrality? Wat Tambor the leader of Techno Union spends much of the war in prison for leading a CIS invasion of Ryloth, but his corporation still claim neutrality even though Wat Tambor is in prison and still their leader.
There was nothing in the movies that implied Gunray or the Trade Federation were neutral, yes the Trade Federation is a corporation and it’s own entity, but it read Gunray wanted to destroy the Republic and rule through the Separatists. It read the corporations wanted to form their own government with less taxes and restrictions on what they could do.
The corporation leaders are also CIS council leaders and the CIS is a military council.
It is a mess for instance after S3 they avoided using the Lucrehulks, even though there are Separatist Lucrehulks in ROTS and Neimodians crew members are swarming the Invisible hand. San Hills absence from the Clovis arc was not good writing either. Basically they avoided Gunray, San Hill, Tikkes, Lucrehulks, Neimodian crew members because they didn’t want to address and explain inconsistencies they created.
Spoiler: Book of Boba Fett spoilers
With Bane clearly saying they have fought before, but saying "won't be the first time I beat you out on a job" how is this so as Bane was clearly shot in the head. How does he count this as a win. Anyway if anything that episode just really made me want them to release that arc.
This is all explained in the series. Nute Gunray is not the Trade Federation. Wat Tambor is not the Techno Union. The Trade Federation, as a corporation, has dealings with both the Republic and the Separatists. And those caught in the secret meeting were labeled as extremists and thus not representative of the corporation's official stance. That's how they managed to have their cake and eat it too.
No, they didn't. The corporations didn't want to form their own government. The representatives that were in the secret meeting wanted the alternative government that Dooku was offering with the Separatist movement, so they offered their support.
Military council? When was that ever established in the movies or the series? They owned the armies, they aren't military people themselves. They are businessmen.
So? How does one thing contradict the other? Where's the "mess"?
Who said he had to be in the arc? What does that got to do with the quality of the writing?
Not true. You're the one pretending that there are inconsistencies to begin with, and that's not the case.
I'm not sure what you mean by that.
I took the comment, "won't be the first time I beat you on a job" to mean that Bane beat Boba on a Bounty, not in a duel. And I'm not sure if the unreleased arc is even considered cannon. You never know if at some point they might release a new Bounty Hunter story, Clone Wars era, involving Boba and Bane and the others like Dengar and Bossk.
I don't really care about this debate, but you realize that was a complete lie by Lot Dodd, right? It's extremely obvious throughout the series that he's a Separatist collaborator, and any claims of neutrality from the TF were completely bogus. Both AOTC and ROTS give the distinct impression that the Separatist Council are the true leaders of the Confederacy, despite what the galaxy and what Separatist senators might think. I don't blame people for thinking it's a mess, since it is overly complicated, if not entirely contradictory.
Where did you get the idea that I thought he wasn't lying? The fact that he was lying is completely irrelevant to the point.
How is it a mess, overly complicated or entirely contradictory? The distinction between the separatist and the corporations goes all the way back to the movies. It's not something that was invented for TCW. It's something that Lucas established from the beginning.