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Full Series Official "The Clone Wars" Series Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Completed Shows' started by RevantheJediMaster, Jul 15, 2005.

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  1. bstnsx704

    bstnsx704 Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 11, 2013
    Correct me if I'm forgetting something, as it has been quite a while since I last watched TCW outside of a few select arcs here and there, but as the October/Halloween season looms closer I find myself once again watching a bunch of Hammer's horror films (I just watched The Gorgon last night) and I can't help but think about what a missed opportunity it was to never put Tarkin and Dooku on screen together to give us something of a Hammer horror reunion with the animated embodiment of Cushing and Dooku's characters.
     
  2. Force Nexus

    Force Nexus Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Jun 22, 2022
    The Clone Wars Season 1 Episode 1 was released 14 years ago today [face_party]
     
  3. clone commander bossk

    clone commander bossk Ostrich Velocity Expert star 5

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    Nov 5, 2019
  4. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Force Ghost star 4

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    Oct 1, 2012
    Totally agreed!
     
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  5. DarthPivot

    DarthPivot Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jul 30, 2016
    I am a couple years late on this but wow the finish to the Clone Wars was fantastic. The last season was done really well. I particularly enjoyed episode 11/12, Maul/Ahsoka, music and final scene. I did have a couple questions:

    Did Sidious need Maul to set up Ashoka? When Ashoka was being made to look bad, a force user seemed to be behind this. For whatever reason he needed Maul, did Sidious let him go or did Maul escape?

    Why did Rex call Palpatine Lord Sidious - was this an error?
     
  6. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

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    Dec 7, 2014
    Rex calling him Lord Sidious seems to be an extension of the way clones in ROTS refer to him as 'my lord' after Order 66.

    When you mention setting up Ahsoka, do you mean in the Season 5 Wrong Jedi arc? That was Barriss, Maul was unrelated to her leaving the Jedi Order.

    Sidious' use of Maul after capturing him on Mandalore was chronicled in the Son of Dathomir comic, set between Season 5 and 7. It was adapted from a planned TCW arc that was never made when the show was cancelled (along with numerous other episodes in various states of completion). He uses Maul as bait to lure out Mother Talzin, so he can defeat her once and for all. Maul is rescued from captivity by his followers, Gar Saxon and Rook Kast, and then wages a war against the Separatists and Republic, before Sidious, Dooku, and Grievous pin Talzin down on Dathomir. Maul escapes and flees back to Mandalore.
     
  7. Force Nexus

    Force Nexus Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Jun 22, 2022
    I think Rex managed to put the pieces together. He knew about the inhibitor chips from Fives, who told him right before his death, that they may be possibly related to assassinating the Jedi, and that the Chancellor was involved somehow. Rex was also present at the meeting with Obi-Wan and Ahsoka, when Obi-Wan told about Darth Sidious, who orchestrated the war and played both sides. So, when Order 66 came down, he realized Fives was right all along, and that Darth Sidious is the Chancellor. They even had a shot lingering on Palpatine's face after Rex told, "Yes, Lord Sidious." It's almost as if he was thinking, "How do you know?", but no matter, since Rex was going to comply regardless. But he managed to resist the programming for a short while, because of Fives. That's why he was repeating, "Find him, Fives, find him." He was clearly thinking back to that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2022
  8. DarthPivot

    DarthPivot Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jul 30, 2016
    @darkspine10 - Thanks for info. I watched Clone Wars over a period of time. Appreciate the clarification re Ashoka season 5. And re Maul as a non reader of comics - very helpful.

    I rewatched RotS - and clones do refer to Palpatine as Lord - but to go to Lord Sidious is a big jump. I don't believe any of the clones knew Palpatine=Sidious. I did rewatch the clone wars rex order 66 scene and it does for a brief second stay on Sidious but there is no reaction. Though if any clone knew I suppose based on what @Force Nexus says it would be Rex. But Clone Wars production also had messed up Rex - as he should have been Commander and not Captain?

    I also was confused why Maul and Ashoka were caught up in Order 66. I think Rex actually made the point in the episode Ashoka wasn't Jedi (though I found it strange Obiwan was briefing her on the council's mission to have Anakin spy on Palpatine). Maybe too close to a Jedi.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2022
  9. Force Nexus

    Force Nexus Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Jun 22, 2022
    Rex was a Captain because Ahsoka was a Commander, and Anakin was a General. It goes like this: Jedi Master/Knight (General) -> Jedi Padawan (Commander) -> Clones (Commander if no Padawan, Captain otherwise). Rex was promoted to Commander in the last arc. Why not before? Maybe he didn't want it, or there was no time, or maybe because Rex was actually in charge of the Torrent Company, a subdivision of the 501st, and not the entire legion.
    Maul knew too much and was a danger to Palpatine personally. He was a loose end that had to be dealt with. Ahsoka, like Obi-Wan, was too close to Anakin, which is why Rex and Cody were the first ones to receive Order 66.
    He didn't brief her, he told her in secret, personally. He even said, "May I speak with Ahsoka alone for a moment?" He told her as a friend and for the sake of Anakin, so that Ahsoka could talk to him, because Anakin was growing extremely unhappy and uncertain, as seen in Revenge of the Sith.
     
  10. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    It's the same jump. None of the clones knew or met the person who's giving them order 66, they don't know he's a Lord, a Sith Lord, Lord Sidious. Yet they refer to him as such. That's a clue to what's really going on, and it's something established in ROTS that most fans and even the licensed works ignored. The clones are (unknowingly) sleeper agents, Manchurian Candidate-style. They are receiving an order which they automatically and subconsciously obey without question. Not an order from anybody, not an order from the chain of command, but an order from the Sith Lord. Because the Sith were behind their creation, they had certain protocols "implanted" in the clones when they were created that they were meant to execute with the right trigger. And the trigger was a direct command from Sidious. This was why the Sith had the clones created to begin with, to help get rid of the Jedi when the time comes.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2022
  11. DarthPivot

    DarthPivot Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jul 30, 2016
    Hey thanks for the responses @Force Nexus, good stuff.

    Is that established somewere, how Palaptine decided to deliver personal Order 66 notifications compared to the way all the other clones got it (generic video/audio) and timing? We see Cody get the order where Palpatine says his name, though watching it again - interestingly he says the time as come - which Cody wouldn't have any idea it was coming, but is Cody the only one that got the personal message? What difference would a personal order make to Cody? Also, how do you know Rex and Cody got the order first? It also looks like Rex didn't get a personal order.

    Yes and no on that one, it seemed the conversation occurred to help the viewer understand where the show was along the RotS timeline. He could have just said Anakin is on special assignment and end it there. He's providing her bombshell news. And prior to that, Mace declined to share information from the council meeting because she wasn't a Jedi. Now, of course, Obiwan and Anakin are much closer to her, but if you recall in RotS, Obiwan making clear to Anakin this assignment isn't to be on record and his serious tone - just a little surprised personally that he would go into specifics with Ashoka. Minor detail though.

    I don't think this is accurate. Folks in the thread vote me down on this if I'm wrong. Order 66 is an order from the Supreme Chancellor declaring the Jedi traitors to the Republic. The clones received the order from Chancellor Palpatine, not Darth Sidious. The order came from the chain of command. Now, either error or Rex put it together, referring to Chancellor Palpatine as Lord by other clones just seemed to be a honorific.

    That said, I'm also a little hazy on the relationship between Tyranus and the Kaminoans - when Fives was taken to Kamino to be studied, it seems like the Kaminoans didn't want the Jedi to find the truth about the inhibitor chips was to protect the republic - not the fact that the built a back door for the Sith. Though in the same episode they consult with Tyranus. The Kaminoans didn't know they were dealing with Sith, correct?
     
  12. Force Nexus

    Force Nexus Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Jun 22, 2022
    It's my assumption that they have gotten the order first. Cody, because he is the first one to get it in the movie, obviously, and, like you said, he was addressed by name. It would make sense that Palpatine would want to eliminate Obi-Wan as soon as possible. It was his goal since the beginning. He wanted Anakin to leave Obi-Wan at the beginning of Revenge of the Sith, he leaked the info on Grievous, hoping the Jedi would send him away. He needed Obi-Wan away to seduce Anakin. I also think he purposefully let Maul go after the events of The Son of Dathomir, specifically to have him as a backup plan to distract Kenobi. Maybe it was Palpatine who sent visions to Maul, so that he would make his move in order to draw Kenobi out? Remember, Maul was expecting Kenobi, and not Ahsoka. So the purpose of Cody getting it first is evident: Palpatine needed Obi-Wan eliminated as soon as possible, it was his target #1. Same with Rex and Ahsoka: Ahsoka was close to Anakin, so Rex would have to be among the first ones to receive Order 66. I assume it wasn't an automated message, because, like I said, Palpatine didn't immediately cut off when Rex said, "Yes, Lord Sidious." I believe there was a purpose to the shot lingering on his face. But that's how I read that scene.
    As for "The time has come", it was more of a Palpatine reveling in his own success. After all, he's been waiting for it for a long time, and he finally won.
    That's the meta purpose, being a point of reference to the events of Revenge of the Sith for the audience, but not the narrative purpose.
    Yes, Mace didn't trust her a whole lot. And Obi-Wan trusted her a lot more, since the three of them were friends, and they were not on record. You can clearly see in the scene that it was a private conversation, and Rex turned off some other droids that were recording it, and Obi-Wan was talking in a discreet manner. He got into specifics, because Anakin was currently going though a lot of stress, a stress of similar nature that Ahsoka went through herself in The Wrong Jedi arc. Obi-Wan was also someone from the Jedi Council. He was, in a way, a representation of the Jedi to Anakin — an authority first, and a friend second. Obi-Wan trying to talk to him about it didn't exactly work out. Anakin was very pissed. He asked him bluntly, "Why are you asking me of this?" And he said, "The Council is asking you." But Obi-Wan was a part of that Council. So, from Anakin's point of view, they were just using him again. Ahsoka, as an outsider and just a friend, could maybe ease his mind. He wanted her to talk to him, but she never got the chance, of course.
    No, he is correct. Aside from the obvious statements from Lucas/Filoni that Alexrd is referring to, the movies were very careful with using those titles. Lord was used exclusively in relation to the Sith Lords — Dark Lord of the Sith. Nute Gunray was referring to Sidious as Lord, Sidious was referring to Maul as Lord, Tyranus was referred to as Lord, Grievous referred to Sidious as Lord. Chancellor Palpatine was a democratically elected chancellor of a free Republic. He's no Lord. The clones had no reason to call him that way. They had no idea what that is. Even if we take the chain of command into consideration, they would call him a Supreme Commander. The reason is because Order 66 — a secret directive implanted into all the clone troopers — came down specifically from Lord Sidious, the man who created the clones, and who were programmed to obey their creator above all else, including their own will.
    They knew he was a Sith, but I don't think they exactly knew the difference between the Jedi and Sith. Not many in the Galaxy did. To them, they are all just crazy wizards with laser swords. Remember when Maul and Savage raided a ship for credits, and the owner confused them for Jedi, and Obi-Wan later had to explain it to him that they were Sith actually? Same with Kaminoans, who probably think it's all the same, and they even made a remark, "These Jedi are a curious cult." And they did not really care. Kaminoans only cared about making money.
     
  13. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    It is accurate.

    No, Order 66 is an order from the Sith Lord, not from the Supreme Chancellor. The Supreme Chancellor is not anyone's Lord. The Sith were behind the creation of the clones, so they are the ones ultimately in control. That's why Sidious was able to command them to execute this secret protocol that was implemented in the clones when they were created. And that's why the clones were able to address and execute an order from someone they never met. This was all first established in ROTS, and expanded in The Clone Wars with the biochip storyline.

    It is an honorific. An honorific of the Sith, not of anyone in the Republic's chain of command. Rex didn't put it together nor was it an error. It was the way it is precisely to reinforce the point already established in the movies.

    No, but even if they did it would be meaningless to them.

    The Kaminoans only care about their customers, those who pay. And Tyranus was the original customer. They contact Tyranus because that's who they have their contract with. It's Tyranus (and his master) who payed the Kaminoans to create an army, with all their particular specificities. It was Tyranus who provided the template. It's Tyranus who closed the deal. Again, to show what was established all along in the movies: that the Sith were behind the creation of the army, and that it's the Sith who are ultimately in control of it. The extent of their control is finally revealed when Order 66 happens, when the clones obey without question a direct and secret command from the Sith Lord.

    Like I said, they are sleeper agents without being aware of it. Lucas himself always referred to it as working like the Manchurian Candidate.
     
  14. DarthPivot

    DarthPivot Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jul 30, 2016
    I am not sure what to say, if it hasn't been definitively established in canon, I suppose we can debate this forever. I don't understand delivering a personal Order 66 message (vs. automated) would make any difference in Cody executing the Order (or it being more successful). Ahsoka was no longer a Jedi and Palpatine would need to know Ahsoka was with Rex. Why Cody & Rex receiving personal Order 66 messages give them a leg up in executing the order I don't understand. Plus Palps just wanted Obiwan off Coruscant, and kept busy. Ahsoka is in the same situation, off world and busy. Anakin was Vader by the time Order 66 came down. At that point it was over, Obiwan or Ahsoka contacting him wasn't going to change his mind. So Cody & Rex getting contacted first or personal messages doesn't make sense.

    Couple big things going on here - in one sense I understand your POV - programmed orders specifically from Sidious seems advantageous because there could be a situation where he was not the Chancellor but needed the clones to execute Order 66. But you are also saying the clone programming had orders from a Sith Lord. Sidious was so petty that once Order 66 was executed he should be referred to as a (Sith) Lord? The Kaminoans/Sith risked their biggest secret stored in the inhibitor chips?

    I just disagree with this. Even if this accurate because of the ANH language - the Jedi have long been aligned with the governing body of the galaxy and there is confusion what/who they are? Palpatine is famous/Jedi are famous. I just don't like this aspect, language from ANH should have been edited, wherever possible, after the PT.

    Again, the Kamino angle on all this is a struggle. Realistically, cloning in the GFFA should have been a highly regulated industry or at least kept tabs on by the government. Them being mysterious and shadowy with the ability to create enough clones to create galactic armies would have been interest to any government. So Sifo-Dyas orders the clone army and after his death Tyranus impersonates a Jedi to continue to receive updates during clone development? Tyranus asks for protocols to be initiated by a non governmental group to execute Jedi? And the Kaminoans do it? If so they are just as complicit as the Sith in overthrowing the Republic and bring the Sith to power. As for as I can recall in AotC, they genuinely seemed to think they were working the Republic/Jedi on this - but meanwhile they are granting access to outside groups to kill Jedi?
     
  15. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    I'll chime in here.

    Ahsoka was, for all intents and purposes, the Jedi in charge of those clones. Sidious doesn't really care about internal minutae of the Jedi Order, who has what rank, who was expelled or left the Order, etc...

    Obi-Wan tried to change his mind and make him realize all the wrong things he did before he engaged him. And in the end, Anakin returned to the light by having someone change his mind.

    I don't know if Sidious was contacting the clone commanders in any specific order. It's inconsequential though.

    Once Order 66 was executed, who cares?

    What's their biggest secret?

    The Jedi were a rare sight, even within the Republic. Yes, they worked with the Republic, but the Republic galactic territory is huge, and there are only a few thousand Jedi working all over it. Right at the beginning of TPM, someone like the viceroy of the Trade Federation, a significant galactic corporation, had never even seen one in all his life. And beyond the Republic, they are almost the stuff of legend.

    The Sith are even more mysterious to the galaxy at large. Few are aware of their existence and even fewer are aware of what they represent, since they ceased to exist a thousand years ago. So for someone to say that they are a Sith Lord to the average galactic citize is almost meaningless. If anyone sees someone swinging a lightsaber left and right, they will think Jedi.

    No, it shouldn't. There's nothing inconsistent about it.

    Why? And what government? The Republic doesn't exist in the Outer Rim and Kamino is beyond the Outer Rim. The only government that matters on Kamino is the Kaminoan government, which considering the involvement of the Prime Minister, is closely involved with the cloning facilities.

    So? Most of the Republic is complicit. But the Sith were never honest about themselves and their goals, so no, nobody is "as complicit" as the Sith. Most of them were played, taken advantage of by their greed or ignorance. Besides, the Kaminoans don't care about any of that. As long as they are payed and the product is delivered as ordered, they don't really care about anything else. The Sith made up a justification for the secret protocols and that's it. They are but a customer who payed to keep things secret and close to the vest.

    No, they seemed to think that the Republic and the Jedi as a whole were aware of what was being built for them. And they didn't grant access to outside groups to kill Jedi. That's a very reductionistic description of what really happened.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2022
  16. Force Nexus

    Force Nexus Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Jun 22, 2022

    Columbia just made a bunch of winter Clone Wars jackets, Anakin and Obi-Wan's from S1 and Ahsoka's from S4, lol
     
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