PT OK Let's Settle This - Mace vs Sidious

That's a matter of perception. There's no evidence of that.

No, he wasn't. Sidious was never disarmed to begin with, as he showed when he blasted Windu with lightning.

If it doesn't exist, it doesn't exist. It's not a matter of true or false.

That's a completely made up idea. It's purple because Sam Jackson requested. Lightsaber colors have no meaning other than blue and green being exclusive to Jedi and red being exclusive to the Sith. What dictates wether someone is closer to the dark side or not is the character. And Windu's character doesn't show any of that.

 

Form VII (the other name for Vaapad), and Mace's unusual fighting style, have been referenced in the newcanon.

Expanded Character Encyclopaedia: (p126) "A master of Form VII combat, Mace Windu is one of the best living lightsaber fighters"

Ultimate Star Wars (p237) "Regarded as one of the best lightsaber fighters of the Jedi Order, Mace is a master of combat techniques that sometimes tread dangerously close to dark side practices."

 

While it is true that Samuel Jackson requested purple, it does not mean that the color of the lightsaber is irrelevant. http://www.starwars.com/databank/lightsaber-crystal explains that the color of a lightsaber is a result of the bond with its user, and the new Ahsoka novel (which is canon) explains that red lightsabers result from kyber crystals "bleeding." This occurs when a dark side user forces the crystal into subjection since kyber crystals really only "choose" light side users. So it does make sense that someone who partially draws on the dark side would cause their crystal to bleed slightly but not enough to turn it completely red.

 

What?! No. You continue to use the false concept that purple is blue + red, which is not true. Mace got his crystal and it turned purple. That's it. There was no "bleeding". Red may happen due to someone using the dark side to enforce their will onto the crystal, but that's not purple. It didn't turn blue -> purple -> red. That's not how it works. A kyber crystal is basically colorless until it connects with the person through the Force.

 

Well... maybe. But still, why was Mace's, of all the jedi, the only one in the movies to turn purple? If color was just randomly either blue, green, or purple, there would be a lot more purples.

 

Nobody knows. It's not blue->purple->red though.

Or purple is just rare and Mace happened to get it. Which is what happened.

 

Mace Windu, because he's a bad you-know-what.

 

Mace won the lightsaber duel part. He did. Period. Instead of using force powers, Sidious chose to duel Mace and lost that part. We never see the full extent of Mace's force powers in the movies, so we don't know what could've happened had Sidious not sensed Anakin's arrival. Having said that, I still think Sidious was probably stronger in the force; however, I think he only beat Yoda due to circumstance. I think Yoda was on the verge of turning the tide, but just had bad luck. I rank them Yoda, Sidious, Mace. My two cents.

 

No wonder Mace put that acronym on his lightsaber.

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He's a ****ing legend.

 

The prop department did.

 

Well, yeah, but at his request.

 

No, the prop department did it as a gift. He didn't request it. It's a reference to his role in Pulp Fiction.

 

I know Pulp Fiction, my man.

 

Never said you didn't.

 

Actually, I think Darth Sidious had fear of heights.
And that Mace pushed the duel till near window and broke the window,to have Darth Sidious being afraid.
In a normal duel, in a large space, where is no danger of falling, I think it was a draw.

 

I never cared for the Vaapad stuff, since Mace has one of the most conservative and defensive styles in the Saga. Even Yoda and Kenobi are more aggressive. Of course, after thousands of years, there wouldn't be lightsaber styles at the Jedi Temple, anymore. The Jedi would have combined and eliminated techniques until they had one uniform system of lightsaber combat; however, after sufficient training, individuals would adapt it to their own personalities, so everyone would perform differently (just as everyone does Judo differently, despite there being a uniform Judo curriculum).

 

Palpatine knew what he was doing. He let Windu win, because he knew Anakin would be there to save him. Therefore, he sacrificed himself as much as necessary to seal the deal.

Also, from a public perspective, he needed to let Windu win in order to justify announcing the betrayal of the entire Jedi Order.

 

sorry double post...

 

I voted Palpatine.

In my view, the Lucas quote has been misinterpreted. Lucas never says Mace won or Mace beat Palpatine. He says Mace overpowered him...

Doesn't Sidious overpower Yoda here?:



Does that mean the fight is over? Does that mean Sidious won the fight? No!


Conversely doesn't Yoda overpower Sidious here?:



But does that mean the fight was over? Does that mean Yoda won? No!

Oh, doesn't Maul overpower Obi Wan thus winning the fight..? Nope...



Mace may have "overpowered" Sidious by knocking the lightsaber out of his hand as he kicks him, but, just because Sidious lost his lightsaber, that doesn't mean Mace won anything.

Does anyone really believe that just because Mace knocks the saber out of Sidious's hand that now all of a sudden Sidious is beat? A Sith Lord that we just witness fly across a room in a tight spiral or does flips when fighting...





...is just all of a sudden beaten and just going to lay there to be executed just because he has his lightsaber knocked out of his hand?

After all we see what a saber less Sidious can do later in his fight with Yoda.



So the Lucas quote...

Once again, Lucas says it himself, Palpatine pretends to be weak, after Mace overpowers him, and he than tries to destroy Mace with his powers. Lucas's quote doesn't end with Mace overpowers him...

If he (Sidious) is pretending that means he is really not weak and is fully capable of carrying on the fight. He is simply using this moment to force Anakin into a decision, and continuing the fight is not what he wants Anakin to see.

We see from the rest of the film that Sidious is fully capable of flips, and jumps, and spins across rooms, he is capable of fighting without a lightsaber, and capable of knocking the lightsaber out of his enemies hands with his force lightning (Yoda duel)...



Now all of a sudden he can't do all that because he has his lightsaber knocked out of his hand? He can't shoot some lightning at Mace to distract him, do a Palpatine flying spin to create space than start throwing furniture and more lightning at Mace? Instead he just lays there conveniently for Mace to execute him?

No, to me, Palpatine was prolonging the fight because he knew Anakin was coming, now maybe Mace legitimately overpowered Sidious, but, to me, it was because Sidious was prolonging the fight until Anakin got there.

To me, the answer has always been Palpatine knew Anakin was coming

Alexrd Palpatine most certainly knew Anakin was going to be there, in fact that pretty much the whole fight was for Anakin's benefit. Palpatine didn't need that final confrontation in order to initiate Order 66, he could have initiated Order 66 and made something up after the fact, he had control over everything.

It's not a coincidence that Palpatine reveals he is a Sith to Anakin. It was done on purpose. It's why the opera scene is so important. In the opera scene Palpatine puts it in Anakin's head that the dark side and the Sith are the path to keeping people from dying. Not! Not the Jedi and not the light side!

Here is my explanation from one of HevyDevy threads:

So Palpatine knew Anakin was going to be there, Palpatien had been setting it up for years. Palpatine knew Anakin's deepest secrets, and used those secrets against him (Anakin). Palpatine knew there wasn't anyway that Anakin would not be there. Just as Lucas said, Anakin was worried that they (the Jedi and Palpatine) were going to kill each other. Palpatine knew there was no way Anakin wasn't going to be able to ignore his emotions...

 

Not really. Order 66 wouldn't affect the Temple and would give time for Windu & Co. to react against him.

No, it's not. He felt it was the right time, but it wasn't. He took a risk.

Indeed.

I know, I've seen the movie. But he didn't know that when he revealed himself to Anakin that he would still do the right thing by turning him down to the Council. And he didn't know he would be back for him. He planted the seed and expected it to grow. But he didn't know if it would happen. Not until Anakin showed up at the end of his duel with Mace.

 

Can you expand on this point? I understand Anakin had access to the Temple so he led the attack, but how can you be sure Order 66 couldn't be directed at the Temple without Vader?

Sidious wasn't counting on it succeeding right here, but was hoping on the possibility. To me, it appears Palpatine was ultimately setting things up for the Mace confrontation from the start, if he can't get Anakin on board more in a more subtle fashion during an earlier character arc event. I agree it was a risk, but look at the results.
He is trying his luck to see how far he can push Anakin at other stages throughout the whole first half of the film.

The scripted version of the film helps a lot with this. Palpatine pushes Anakin to give into his urge to kill Dooku (Anakin (script): "I couldn't stop myself"), and has been pruning him ("It is only natural..."), referenced by his reminding Anakin about the Tusken camp failure, and seeing if he can get Anakin to leave behind Obi-Wan, which of course Anakin at this point would never do.



Then back on the surface of Coruscant there is the important exchange between Mace and Palpatine that (mikeximus explained to me) sets up that Palpatine is expecting Mace and co at his office to remove his emergency powers on Grievous's death or capture. Linking to Palpatine later revealing Grievous's location to the Jedi oh so conveniently in the same scene he reveals the death-cheating power of the dark side to Anakin. And then, on Anakin's report that Obi-Wan and Grievous are in battle, he finally reveals who he really is because he knows what is about to happen. Palpatine isn't stupid, this is all calculated.

Plus, a major motive to Palpatine's constitutional amendments (that are more prevalent in the script) seem to be largely just to get the Jedi frustrated and acting rashly. The executive powers over the Jedi, that Obi-Wan mentions in the scene before Anakin is first called to Palpatine's office.



Back to testing Anakin's limits. The following part of the movie shouldn't have been cut Imo, but this excerpt is particularly relevant:

PALPATINE: I fear the Jedi. The Council keeps pushing for more control. They're shrouded in secrecy and obsessed with maintaining their autonomy . . . ideals. I find simply incomprehensible in a democracy.
ANAKIN: I can assure you that the Jedi are dedicated to the values of the Republic, sir.
PALPATINE: Nevertheless, their actions will speak more loudly than their words. I'm depending on you.

Not coincidentally, the Jedi don't let Anakin in on their true fears, and this backfires when Mace's "actions (appear to) speak louder than words" at the crucial moment. Palpatine needed this to happen or his credibility goes out the window. But maybe I am stating the obvious here.


A significant moment where Palpatine almost goes to far in pushing Anakin is in the final cut of the opera scene.

ANAKIN: The Sith rely on their passion for their strength. They think inward, only about themselves.
PALPATINE: And the Jedi don't?
ANAKIN: The Jedi are selfless . . . they only care about others.
...
PALPATINE: (continuing) Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis "the wise"?
ANAKIN: No.

Palpatine senses Anakin isn't taking the bait yet, he is perhaps even offending Anakin, so he switches to something more personal to Anakin. Anakin is instantly more immersed, it is quite shifty of Palpatine timing-wise.




Interestingly, in the script there are a few lines in between this moment that speak more of the greying of Anakin's views:

ANAKIN: The Jedi are selfless. They only care about others.
PALPATINE smiles.
PALPATINE: Or so you've been trained to believe. Why is it, then, that they have asked you to do something you feel is wrong?
ANAKIN: I'm not sure it's wrong.
PALPATINE: Have they asked you to betray the Jedi code? The Constitution? A friendship? Your own values? Think. Consider their motives. Keep your mind clear of assumptions. The fear of losing power is a weakness of both the Jedi and the Sith.
ANAKIN is deep in thought.

I find this curious, because it hints that Anakin is already thinking a little grey in that he is willing to do something illegal (spy on Sidious) if it serves the greater good. It adds credence to claimed blurred line between the two Orders, that will make Anakin in desperation side with his own greed, at the stressful crucial moment later.

I wholeheartedly disagree, there is much subtext to imply Palpatine knew Anakin couldn't just stay away, that in some circumstance Anakin would definitely end up there at that moment. He was taking a risk, yes, but the novel and the film implies he knew what was coming or he would try harder to kill Mace himself.
In the novelisation Mace even senses Palpatine's shatterpoint is Anakin... but fails to search for Anakin's; Palpatine himself, hence everything hinges on the chosen one's actions.

Again, the novelisation is more explicit. Palpatine is totally confident when Anakin arrives (he calmly orders: "Anakin, destroy this traitor!"), he isn't surprised one bit. He has foreseen what is about to transpire.

 

It would, but not immediately since the Temple was clone-free.

Well, I believe he was counting on succeeding in that scene. But Anakin didn't fell in that moment so Sidious needed to be ready for the consequences.

I disagree. I don't believe Sidious is that omniscient.

Yes, but we're talking about the second half.

Which fears?

The film implies no such thing. Like I said, he planted the seed and was confident that Anakin would fall for it. But he didn't know it.

 

Order 66 would definitely affect the Temple with or without Anakin there. There were at least 400 Clone troopers marching up those steps, and I say at least because we can see in the movie that there are 5 groups of 84 troops visible (7 by 12) and marching to attack the temple. There were probably more than that, but, that is all that was visible on screen when they show the wide angle shot of the troops marching, so at least 400 troops took part in the attack.

But that's all irrelevant isn't it? Because Bail Organa states that he saw thousands of troops attack the Jedi Temple...

We saw what hundreds of Battle Droids did to the Jedi during the Battle of Geonosis, and seeing how clones were far superior to droids and there were thousands of clonetroopers attacking the Temple, I don't think Mace, Kit, Saesee and Agen were going to flip the tide. The attack on the Jedi Temple would have taken place either way, with or without Anakin leading it or with or without mace and his Posse there. The vast majority of the Jedi were spread across the galaxy, and the Temple was lightly guarded.

The best that could have happened for the Jedi would be that some might be able to escape the attack had Mace and his posse been there instead of already dead. Either way the attack on the Temple was going to happen, as Sidious says, the attack will catch them off balance because the Temple would not be expecting it. This would be true with or without Anakin leading the attack, or if Mace and his posse were still there. There was no reason for them to expect the attack.

It most definitely was the right time. It is Palpatine that puts everything in motion. It is Palpatine that initiates the final confrontation with Mace and his posse! At the beginning of the movie Palpatine tells Mace that the only way he is going to give up his powers is if Grievous is dead. So than who tells the Jedi were to find Grievous? It was Palpatine! Why would Palpatine tell the Jedi where Grievous was when he knows that if the Jedi kill Grievous that they will than be expecting him to drop his powers? The only explanation is that Palpatine purposely tells the Jedi where to find Grievous because Palpatine wants that confrontation to happen, because he now realizes that Anakin is strong enough and unstable enough to push to the Dark Side. It's time for Anakin to make his decision, and Palpatine is pushing everyone to that moment.

Sidious isn't trying to take a stab in the dark in trying to get Anakin to join him or taking a risk. He is planting yet another seed in Anakin's head that Anakin needs Palpatine, needs the Dark Side in order to save Padme. Palpatine knows that Obi Wan has engaged Grievous, and would probably be successful, Palpatine knows that once Obi Wan is successful, that the Jedi are going to be walking through his front door looking for him to drop his powers. There is no risk because Palpatine has pushed everyone to this moment. It's not risk when you have rigged the game to know how everyone else is going to respond. Sure if Anakin turned right then and there, than bonus for Palpatine, but, that is not what he was planning on.

In fact even Lucas says that wouldn't have made sense because that is what the story originally was. Originally he had Anakin turn to the Dark Side right there, at that moment, and that when Mace and his Posse show up, they were unaware of Palpatine being a Sith, because Anakin stayed at the Chancellors office and waited with the Chancellor for the Jedi to show up, because Anakin had already turned. Lucas said it didn't make sense that Anakin would turn like that, so he re-wrote everything to what we saw in the final movie.

Again in my eyes, Palpatine has set everyone up to come to him when the time is right. He setup the Jedi, so that when Grievous was killed they would come to him, he than setup the Jedi further by telling the Jedi where Grievous was hiding, knowing full well that the Jedi would be coming to him once Grievous was dead. Once he finds out that Obi Wan made contact with Grievous, he is expecting Obi Wan to do his job, and that the Jedi will be heading to him shortly, so he has to make sure that Anakin will be there too, so he tells Anakin that he is the Sith Lord, this ensures that one way or the other, Anakin is going to be there in order to make sure Palpatine doesn't get hurt because Anakin needs Palpatine. Just as Lucas stated in the commentary.

it seems to me that Palpatine anticipates a lot!

It seems to me that Palpatine was definitely expecting Anakin was going to turn him in...

Seems to me that Palpatine was not one bit surprised that Anakin was going to turn him over, even encourages Anakin to do so.

Palpatine has spent 10+ years manipulating Anakin, putting things into his head. As I detailed in my previous post. Palpatine knows Anakin like he would know his own child. Just like I know my kids that if I were to ask them if they wanted Peas or Ice Cream, I know they would pick Ice Cream. Well in this situation Palpatine knows that the choices Anakin have, are staying out of it (Peas) or getting back to the office to see what is happening (Ice Cream)...

As Lucas states in the DVD commentary, he purposefully added the scene where Anakin and Padme are looking at each other (though they don't see each other) as Anakin sits in the Council Chambers and Padme in her apartment, as a way to drive home that this is all about Anakin trying to save Padme, and that is why he has to get back to that office. Palpatine knows this, and he knows Anakin will be there, because he knows Anakin as well as anyone.

 

Later, not immediately like Order 66. That's my point, as I've explained above.

No, it wasn't. Otherwise Anakin would have turned right there and then. But he didn't.

Who's even arguing that? I'm saying that Palpatine expected Anakin to turn when he revealed himself to him and that he didn't know Anakin would return at the end of his duel with Mace.

Of course he is. There's the possibility that Anakin would do the right thing.

The seed has been planted before. He was basically telling that he was the key. He didn't expect Anakin to turn him in. He expected him to fall in that moment. But Anakin was still in conflict.

Again, who's arguing the story? We are talking about the characters. Palpatine expected Anakin to turn when he revealed himself. That was the point.

That's irrelevant to the discussion regarding Palpatine, what he knows and what he was counting on.