Amph One Thread To Rule Them All: The Rings of Power, The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings & Middle-earth films

He seemed to imply that he was there when Melkor arrived in Arda, or maybe that was just when he returned from his exile in Valinor.

 

Given Tom's songs about ancient starlight "when only the elf-sires were awake"

When they caught his words again they found that he had now wandered into strange regions beyond their memory and beyond their waking thought, into times when the world was wider, and the seas flowed straight to the western Shore; and still on and back Tom went singing out into ancient starlight, when only the Elf-sires were awake. Then suddenly he stopped, and they saw that he nodded as if he was falling asleep. The hobbits sat still before him, enchanted; and it seemed as if, under the spell of his words, the wind had gone, and the clouds had dried up, and the day had been withdrawn, and darkness had come from East and West, and all the sky was filled with the light of white stars.

and that the first elves awoke on Cuiviénen before Melkor's exile:

It is told that even as Varda ended her labours, and they were long, when first Menelmacar strode up the sky and the blue fire of Helluin flickered in the mists above the borders of the world, in that hour the Children of the Earth awoke, the Firstborn of Ilúvatar. By the starlit mere of Cuiviénen, Water of Awakening, they rose from the sleep of Ilúvatar; and while they dwelt yet silent by Cuiviénen their eyes beheld first of all things the stars of heaven. Therefore they have ever loved the starlight, and have revered Varda Elentári above all the Valar.
In the changes of the world the shapes of lands and of seas have been broken and remade; rivers have not kept their courses, neither have mountains remained steadfast; and to Cuiviénen there is no returning. But it is said among the Elves that it lay far off in the east of Middle-earth, and northward, and it was a bay in the Inland Sea of Helcar; and that sea stood where aforetime the roots of the mountain of Illuin had been before Melkor overthrew it. Many waters flowed down thither from heights in the east, and the first sound that was heard by the Elves was the sound of water flowing, and the sound of water falling over stone.
Long they dwelt in their first home by the water under stars, and they walked the Earth in wonder; and they began to make speech and to give names to all things that they perceived. Themselves they named the Quendi, signifying those that speak with voices; for as yet they had met no other living things that spoke or sang.
And on a time it chanced that Oromë rode eastward in his hunting, and he turned north by the shores of Helcar and passed under the shadows of the Orocarni, the Mountains of the East. Then on a sudden Nahar set up a great neighing, and stood still. And Oromë wondered and sat silent, and it seemed to him that in the quiet of the land under the stars he heard afar off many voices singing.
Thus it was that the Valar found at last, as it were by chance, those whom they had so long awaited. And Oromë looking upon the Elves was filled with wonder, as though they were beings sudden and marvellous and unforeseen; for so it shall ever be with the Valar. From without the World, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold.
In the beginning the Elder Children of Ilúvatar were stronger and greater than they have since become; but not more fair, for though the beauty of the Quendi in the days of their youth was beyond all other beauty that Ilúvatar has caused to be, it has not perished, but lives in the West, and sorrow and wisdom have enriched it. And Oromë loved the Quendi, and named them in their own tongue Eldar, the people of the stars; but that name was after borne only by those who followed him upon the westward road.
Yet many of the Quendi were filled with dread at his coming; and this was the doing of Melkor. For by after-knowledge the wise declare that Melkor, ever watchful, was first aware of the awakening of the Quendi, and sent shadows and evil spirits to spy upon them and waylay them.
So it came to pass, some years ere the coming of Oromë, that if any of the Elves strayed far abroad, alone or few together, they would often vanish, and never return; and the Quendi said that the Hunter had caught them, and they were afraid. And indeed the most ancient songs of the Elves, of which echoes are remembered still in the West, tell of the shadow-shapes that walked in the hills above Cuiviénen, or would pass suddenly over the stars; and of the dark Rider upon his wild horse that pursued those that wandered to take them and devour them. Now Melkor greatly hated and feared the riding of Oromë, and either he sent indeed his dark servants as riders, or he set lying whispers abroad, for the purpose that the Quendi should shun Oromë, if ever they should meet.
Thus it was that when Nahar neighed and Oromë indeed came among them, some of the Quendi hid themselves, and some fled and were lost. But those that had courage, and stayed, perceived swiftly that the Great Rider was no shape out of darkness; for the light of Aman was in his face, and all the noblest of the Elves were drawn towards it.

and that Tom "remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn", and that he remembers "the Dark under the stars when it was fearless, before the Dark Lord came from Outside" I'd go with him being in Eä before the Valar went in and before Arda, the Earth itself, was formed.


But even as Ulmo spoke, and while the Ainur were yet gazing upon this vision, it was taken away and hidden from their sight; and it seemed to them that in that moment they perceived a new thing, Darkness, which they had not known before except in thought. But they had become enamoured of the beauty of the vision and engrossed in the unfolding of the World which came there to being, and their minds were filled with it; for the history was incomplete and the circles of time not full-wrought when the vision was taken away. And some have said that the vision ceased ere the fulfilment of the Dominion of Men and the fading of the Firstborn; wherefore, though the Music is over all, the Valar have not seen as with sight the Later Ages or the ending of the World.
Then there was unrest among the Ainur; but Ilúvatar called to them, and said: ‘I know the desire of your minds that what ye have seen should verily be, not only in your thought, but even as ye yourselves are, and yet other. Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be; and those of you that will may go down into it.’ And suddenly the Ainur saw afar off a light, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame; and they knew that this was no vision only, but that Ilúvatar had made a new thing: Eä, the World that Is.
Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.
But when the Valar entered into Eä they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaped, and it was dark. For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Timeless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshowing; but now they had entered in at the beginning of Time, and the Valar perceived that the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it. So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored, and in ages uncounted and forgotten, until in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the vast halls of Eä there came to be that hour and that place where was made the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar. And in this work the chief part was taken by Manwë and Aulë and Ulmo; but Melkor too was there from the first, and he meddled in all that was done, turning it if he might to his own desires and purposes; and he kindled great fires. When therefore Earth was yet young and full of flame Melkor coveted it, and he said to the other Valar: ‘This shall be my own kingdom; and I name it unto myself!’

 

So - how many reference guides do I need to read to watch this show?

 

Old Tom was an absolute delight, and the showrunners proved with flying colors that he could’ve been wonderful in the FotR film too. Really enjoyed the episode as a whole. Finally, for the most part, the show truly slowed down to let us take in the real star of the story - the world, its languages, its cultures. I think old Tolkien would’ve liked this one.

None.

This is the kind of high-quality commentary the thread was missing.

 

I really enjoyed Tom. I should have liked a touch more whimsy and mirth, but this does just fine. He was charming as could be, and I liked that we got quite a few references to FOTR that work primarily because they were left out of the movie. Had Jackson's trilogy done these things, it would have been redundant despite ROP technically not being an actual prequel to those films. It would have just looked like cheap reminders of the LOTR you were crazy about. Instead, they have the courage to do what those films didn't.

Fitting, as well, that the first appearance of Tom onscreen also features the first appearance of the Barrow Wights.

 

My only serious criticism of this episode is that Galadriel's action moves are too over-the-top. If the fight choreographers would tone it down and make it a little more grounded in reality, I'd like that better.

 

That’s one of their many concessions to Jackson, I’m afraid. It ain’t going away and so I’m resigned to it. Certain hero elves will continue to have crazy OTT moves. But only a few. So far, Galadriel and Arondir have the super-elf thing, just as Legolas was the only one with those abilities in the movies.

I love how Tom deals with both the tree and the Stranger in that scene. He acts with both the roughness and care that a livestock farmer would act with. Carefully extracts the Stranger, roughly throws him to the ground, and then both reprimands and soothes the tree, as one would to an unruly barnyard animal. His mannerisms and tone are just perfect.

 

I liked the tune during the end credits, listened to the whole thing, even though I didn't love the performance. When I read those lyrics, it's always livelier, more snappy. This version is a little too slow and soulful for my taste and expectations.

 

I'd like to hear a more jaunty take on the tune.

 

Yeah, I think the Wainwright version during the end credits is supposed to be a version of the song sung by someone else, with the wistful tone of someone who's remembering someone/ something that's been lost. The tone of the song that Tom actually sings to himself in the episode is the right one for Tom himself. And allegedly, both Tom and the Stranger will sing in the next episode or two.

It's coming (sung by the actor playing Tom and the Stranger), though it's not as jaunty as you might want (but I absolutely love it). You can hear it on the soundtrack:

 

Haven't posted since seeing the new episode, but I liked it... this season continues to be really good. As others said above, I really liked Tom Bombadil in this.

 

Yeah. And for some fans that thought Tom wasn't jolly enough, I present the simple fact that he was interacting with a wizard/ Istar/ Maiar here, not hobbits. So it makes sense that he might speak to him in a somewhat different register (though I think he was just right, and pretty close to how he is in FOTR). After all, at the end of ROTK (book 6, chapter 7), Gandalf notes that he intends to have a "long talk" with Tom Bombadil, and I imagine there was some seriousness in that, and it wasn't just about badgers and water-lilies. Or maybe it was!

‘But if you would know, I am turning aside soon. I am going to have a long talk with Bombadil: such a talk as I have not had in all my time. He is a moss-gatherer, and I have been a stone doomed to rolling. But my rolling days are ending, and now we shall have much to say to one another.’

 

Can i just say i feel more of book Tolkien in Rings of Power then i do in LOTR and The Hobbit...

 

Won’t be a surprise to anyone, but I feel the same. Not in all respects, but in some important ones.

 

i think in a lot of respects the show mimics jackson's visual and storytelling style, which makes sense, they are trying to appeal to fans of those films as well as fans of the source material. but a lot of what happens feels a lot like frodo and sam randomly running into merry and pippen on maggot's farm, so i'm a bit surprised that bor likes it so much. i think being forced to invent so much of the material gives them a bit of an advantage in a way, since they're creating new stories set within the universe rather than adapting ones that are already near and dear to peoples' hearts. anyway, i haven't noticed much of a quality shift from season 1 to season 2. i've only watched the first two episodes of season 2 so maybe that will change, but i will say that i'm definitely enjoying it more. i think that's because going in this time i knew what show to expect, and i've been able to just go for the ride, however silly it seems at times, rather than fight against it.

 

Episode 4 was pretty good. There’s still moments where I think to myself “get on with it,” but when it gets moving I’m really into it.

One pet peeve though: don’t have your credits song clash with the tone of the end of the episode.

 

Really, REALLY great write up by Laura Miller on Tom Bombadil and how he is being utilized within Rings of Power.


https://slate.com/culture/2024/09/rings-of-power-tom-bombadil-tolkien-season-2.html

 

Agreed with all the above about Tom Bombadil's role in the show. Aside from the FOTR, it matches the additional poems that Tolkien wrote about him, things that were collected in books like The Tolkien Miscellany, which explain more about his background. And Old Man Willow, and Goldberry (who seems to be a water sprite Tom stole from her mother), and his trolling of various animals. I'm not saying anything new here, but there is a strong implication in those that he's more of an Earth or nature spirit/entity of some sort, even though I know Tolkien was always cagey about confirming one way or another. In FOTR, due to the context of the broader story, it seemed he could have been someone directly related to the events (like a former wizard or part elf or whatever). The non-FOTR poems make that less likely, and this last episode and its nature focus (desert Tom! who would have thought?) match him perfectly.

I am not entirely digging the halfling plot. I like the new settlement, but they are implying that the Shire is some sort of Promised Land. That kind of plot has been done to death in fantasy/sci-fi, and I feel like it drains the unique adaptability of the halflings, who Tolkien never had all living in the Shire. It also takes something away from the Shire; as readers, we're supposed to sympathize with Bilbo/Frodo when they have to leave their safe home and go elsewhere, but they never treat the Shire as some sort of holy land. It's home, it's rustic, it's pretty but not Valinor.

 

I don't know. The Shire being a destination of vision seems kind of fitting since it does become a halfling safe haven under the protection of Arnor and later the Dunedain Rangers and still later the renewed Kingdom of Arnor under King Elessar. The Numenorean Faithful of Eru safeguarding the borders of the Shire seems like the kind of thing Iluvatar might gift a wandering halfling a vision of.

 

They keep doing that stuff. It's either a blatant troll or terrible writing. If they make em blue wizards it will go a long way towards good will with the fans

 

From Letters, Tolkien seemed to indicate he never really pondered what Tom actually was (other than to assure a reader he was not, in fact, Illuvatar). Out of universe, it's pretty clear that (much like the early portions of the the hobbits' journeys in FOTR) it's a legacy of where LOTR was originally being written as "The Hobbit 2". (Christopher Tolkien's 4-volume set on the development of LOTR is particularly illuminating on that, especially that 1) Tolkien only initially wrote it because the publisher had a hit and they wanted a sequel and 2) How his mythology slowly crept in and transformed it).

In the context of Tolkien's writings, it was just the "King's lands", part of their estate filled with vineyards and farms that were essentially left to abandonment when Arnor collapsed and the capital of Arthedain moved to Fornost.
(Because I'm a boring nerd, there's some interesting implications in the name as an indication that the term 'Shire' was acquired from the humans and therefore marked how the Northern Kingdom divided up their realm. Also, that Tolkien in other works explained that the "Farthings" were, in fact, named after coinage used by the Two Kingdoms)

 

I feel the opposite personally. But to each his or her own. Jackson, Walsh and Boyens had much more source material to work with though so I don't know that's it's even fair to discredit RoP in this regard because it's a second age show using Lord of the Rings as it's source of adaptation. But Galadriel and Elrond felt like Galadriel and Elrond. The dialogue felt Tolkienian (but they literally had to option to lift dialogue from the books) and I personally felt they nailed the thematics of LotR for the most part. Rings of Power just doesn't scream Tolkien to me 12 episodes in. The show works better for me when I disengage my reverence for Tolkien whilst watching the series...I just enjoy it more when I treat it like a high budget fantasy series with names of characters taken from Tolkien. But I can only speak for myself of course. It allows me to enjoy Halbrand and understand why Galadriel in this show is Galadriel in this show. Why Elrond is against the rings and is committing treason against his king by disobeying him. Why Tom Bombadil is the Yoda character giving purpose to an Istari....etc. When i can peel it away from the literature and just enjoy it for what it is then I am not constantly questioning every narrative decision outside of the consistency of its own framework of course.

 

She fails to consider that in the show, Tom Bombadil is talking to a wizard and not a troop of four hobbits.

Here’s Gandalf in ROTK (book 6, chapter 7), saying that he intends to have a "long talk" with Tom Bombadil, which implies that there was some serious business to discuss, and not just cloudy weather.

‘But if you would know, I am turning aside soon. I am going to have a long talk with Bombadil: such a talk as I have not had in all my time. He is amoss-gatherer, and I have been a stone doomed to rolling. But my rolling days are ending, and now we shall have much to say to one another.’

There’s so, so much online Tolkien “commentary” that misses the mark. I can only take a fraction of it seriously.