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Saga OT Force vs. PT Prophecy

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Obi-Ewan, Dec 30, 2013.

  1. Obi-Ewan

    Obi-Ewan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2000
    It is my contention that much of the way the Force is portrayed in the prequels contradicts what we learn from the original films; in particular the way it related to the Prophecy. If you're going to reply, please have more to say than "everything we thought we knew can be reversed by the prequels" or "our knowledge is incomplete without the prequels." There is continuity, and the prequels are there to maintain, not retcon it.

    What the original films taught us about the Force.
    1. The Force is an energy field created by all living things. (ANH) Life creates it and makes it grow (ESB).
    2. Han, who cannot use the Force, simply doesn't believe in it.
    3. The Bureaucrat whom Vader strangles is similarly chastised for his "lack of faith."
    4. Does the Force control your actions? Partially. Obi-Wan, however, who has quite a bit
    of experience with the Force, downplays this element, and tells us that the Force will obey
    the commands of a Jedi. (Or a Sith, for that matter.)
    5. Is the Dark Side stronger? A most emphatic NO! The Dark Side is only quicker, easier, and more seductive.
    6. A ragtag gang of rebels manages to rally together several star systems into a strong military resistance and, with the Force on their side, manages to defeat the Empire at Endor.
    7. The Force runs strong in the Skywalker family.
    8. Obi-Wan and Yoda are counting on Luke to defeat Vader and the Emperor.
    9. The Rebels mount their offensive against Death Star II because they know the Emperor will be there and know that destroying the Death Star with him on board will wipe out the Empire.

    What the prequels tell us:
    1. The Midichlorians are essential for life. Without them there would be no knowledge of the Force.
    2. Remember all that stuff about faith from items 2 and 3? Forget all that. Without the requisite number of midichlorians in your blood you don't have a snowball's chance in hell of learning to use the Force.
    4. Does the Force control your actions? Apparently, it controls EVERYTHING! It can even create a life form from scratch. (More on this later.) So much for it being created BY life, now apparently it's the CREATOR of life.
    5. Is the Dark Side stronger? Well, let's see. A single dark side user has managed to manipulate his way to the top of the galaxy's government, gained himself dictatorial powers, and is in charge of a massive war machine. Of course, all this he got through political maneuvering, so that's easily destroyed (see Episode VI). But wait, there's more! He also know how to use Force Lightning. Now those plucky rebels we used to root for (Item 6). So now that whole climactic battle, in which they turned his trap against him, was still a losing battle. The Emperor is now in fact so nearly invincible that the combined efforts of the entire galaxy are not enough to defeat him. Never mind that they have the manpower and firepower to destroy the Death Star and his Starfleet. Now, defeating the Sith and defeating an Empire which the Sith created are two different things, and the former simply can't be done with all the good Force users and even the combined strength of all the good non-Force users. This requires that one single life form that the Force created from scratch. The tie-breaker? That dang force-lightning.
    7. The Force runs in certain families? How would we know? They're not allowed to breed.
    8. Obi-Wan and Yoda are giving Luke a hopeless task in defeating Vader. The Emperor will never be defeated without Vader's help.
    9. Two options. A) Destroying the Death Star with Palpatine on board just isn't the same as defeating the Sith order. B) Palpatine, despite his advanced age and decrepit condition, and despite his blindness to the numerous dangers posed to him (Han destroying the shield generator, Lando and Wedge penetrating the shield) had some escape plan up his sleeve and only Vader turning on him kept him from leaving. Never mind that if he can't tell that his own apprentice is about to turn on him, how can he be expected to know that his Empire is crumbling around him, much less take precautions to save his own skin.
     
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  2. Moviefan2k4

    Moviefan2k4 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2009
    George explained the whole "prophecy" deal in an interview for the "Empire of Dreams" documentary...

    (paraphrasing)

    "The prophecy says that Anakin is the Chosen One, destined to destroy the Sith. He remains the Chosen One even after being burned up, and fulfills the prophecy by killing the Emperor and sacrificing himself."

    It seems to me, that Lucas deliberately kept the prophecy vague in some aspects, even suggesting it could've been misread by the Jedi Order. This makes a certain level of sense, as Lucas apparently envisioned Anakin in the PT as a twisted Christ figure.
     
  3. Obi-Ewan

    Obi-Ewan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2000
    That's not the answer, that's the problem.

    "The prophecy says that Anakin is the Chosen One, destined to destroy the Sith."

    The original trilogy does not concern itself with fulfilling an ancient prophecy. Destroying the Sith vs. defeating the Empire he created is a false dichotomy. ROTJ clearly shows the Rebels defeating the Empire against overwhelming odds, not them depending on Anakin to do it for them. That ONE PERSON has the singular DESTINY of doing it essentially makes a waste of what EVERYONE ELSE has accomplished, because it's a hopeless task without him. For the Force to single out and, in fact, single-handedly create one person for this job is also against everything we learn about the Force before. The Force doesn't create life, life creates the Force.

    For the Dark Side to become so powerful that such a drastic step is necessary is also against what the originals tell us: that the Dark Side is not stronger. Unless we're suggesting that the mere ability to create Anakin from scratch is what gives the Light Side the upper hand, because in that case I suggest you consult the opera scene. Judging from this site quite a few people seem willing to take Palpatine at his word there and, sadly, the literature that's been published seems to do the same.

    "It seems to me, that Lucas deliberately kept the prophecy vague in some aspects, even suggesting it could've been misread by the Jedi Order. "

    The Jedi's reading of it seems largely in line with what Lucas has said, but even if they did misread it that doesn't really address the argument, so it's a Red Herring.
    Obi-Wan and Yoda's actions regarding Luke are not those of two men who have ever concerned themselves with an ancient prophecy. They never show any doubt
    in the prequels that Anakin was the Chosen One, even, in Obi-Wan's case, after seeing what Anakin has become. No "misreading" of the prophecy explains their placing all their hopes on Luke in the originals.
     
  4. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Source?

    Every living being is created by life and is able to create life as well. Where is the contradiction?

    What?! Your fallacious reasoning aside, the Dark Side is not stronger, and nothing in the prequels even suggests (let alone prove) otherwise.

    Correction: The Force runs strong in certain families.

    Once again, source? Where was it ever established that families are not allowed to breed?

    Not according to them. As established in RotS, Obi-Wan questions if Anakin is the one reffered to in the prophecy and Yoda believes that the prophecy could have been misread. And after Anakin fell to the dark side and was defeated, Obi-Wan lost all faith in it.

    The question being?
     
  5. Lars_Muul

    Lars_Muul Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 2, 2000
    There's nothing wrong with retcons, as long as they maintain continuity.

    - Nowhere is it stated or even implied that you need a high midi-chlorian count to be able to use the Force. What's implied is that it makes it easier.

    - It's explicitly stated that midi-chlorians, not the Force, create life: "It's possible he was conceived by the midi-chlorians", "he could even use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life".

    - Palpatine would've had plenty of time to escape if Luke had taken Vader's place at his side or if Luke had died.
    Proof: Luke made it out of there after redeeming his father, dragging him out to the shuttle, talking to him for a minute and then getting him on board.





    - Leave him or we'll never make it!
    - Are you sure?

    /LM
     
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  6. Seagoat

    Seagoat Skywalker Saga and Music Section Moderatator star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2013
    I'll first go through your list of OT facts, giving a PT fact that maintains continuity, then vice versa.

    1. Scientifically speaking, the Force is, in any form, energy, not matter. It is all around the galaxy, and according to how many life forms there are, there are more Midi-chlorians, therefore more connections to the Force. Obi-Wan's statement's still apply.
    2. and 3. So some people no longer believe in the Force. It's been almost twenty years since the Jedi existed on a large scale. It's not hard to believe that either people have stopped believing in it or were simply born at such a time where it was rarely spoken of. Perhaps it had even become a taboo subject of sorts.
    4. I don't believe he meant we're in charge of the Force, rather that a Jedi can command it to be used as what we know as Force powers.
    5. I'll counter this in my PT post.
    6. I don't see what that even has to do with PT continuity.
    7. Again I'll counter this one in the PT post.
    8. PT post counter
    9. Yes, and this is what happens.

    Now, onto what you said for the PT.

    1. Remember, the common fan mistake is that they ARE the Force or that they're the cause of it. No, they act as transmitters of the Force, a symbiote of sorts. They're a catalyst to the same, mystical energy field. Obi-Wan didn't feel the need to give Luke a whole biology course, so he just told him what he needed to know.
    2. They never said that. Midichlorians could be a quite common cellular organelle in the GFFA, just in varying amounts. Never in the PT did they say you need a specific amount, just that it determined how much natural power a Jedi could reach.
    3. You skipped 3...
    4. This technically isn't a contradiction to the OT. It's never stated that the Force does not control one's actions.
    5. The Sith had the element of surprise AND a weak, inefficient Jedi order to their advantage. A Jedi order that, ironically, had grown overconfident in their belief that the Sith were gone, despite the fact that they were working slowly right under their noses to shape the galaxy into a position they could use.
    6. You also skipped 6...
    7. *We* don't know. Luke knows. He knows his father is strong in the Force, he knows that he is strong in the Force, and I'm sure he sensed or at least suspected Leia's strength in the Force.
    8. They never said this. They believed Vader was a lost cause. From what I can gather, perhaps they believe Luke is actually the Chosen One (as some fans even argue for) or that the whole Chosen One thing was misinterpreted or otherwise false to begin with. Anakin's offspring were slim hopes, but they were the only hopes. All the other Jedi were dead, and they themselves had already tried and failed to stop them.
    9. A) yes, it is. Two Sith, both on the Death Star. If it goes boom with them on it, the Sith are gone until a new one potentially rises up. B) Who's to say Palpatine even had a plan of escape? "Your overconfidence is your weakness" - I doubt he even believed the rebels had a chance of destroying the Death Star.
     
  7. Moviefan2k4

    Moviefan2k4 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2009
    How so? Palpatine may have formed and maintained the Empire, but Anakin's destiny was solely focused on the Sith, not their business endeavors.

    Have you ever heard the phrase, "the night is darkest just before the dawn"? Light ultimately won, no matter how powerful the darkness became; that's the point.

    Obi-Wan's words to Anakin on the black sands of Mustafar carry a different context. He's basically saying, "How could you go this far? This isn't the way its supposed to be!" I know its not a direct correlation, but there's some similarities between what the Jedi expected of the Chosen One, and the Jews' hopes about the Messiah. Both wanted a badass warrior, but Anakin and Jesus were neither. In the end, they sacrificed themselves instead of others, the only narrative difference being Anakin turning to the Dark Side beforehand.
     
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  8. Obi-Ewan

    Obi-Ewan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2000
    Source?
    Every published bit of information about the Jedi Order surrounding the release of Episode I. Children are tested at birth for midichlorians and, if shown to have a sufficient level, are trained as Jedi. Hence, it is a prerequisite to being trained in their order. Anakin's strength in the Force is measured by his midichlorian levels, as is Yoda. Hence, faith is out of the picture: even if we use the term now, it is merely a measure of germs in your blood.

    Every living being is created by life and is able to create life as well. Where is the contradiction?
    The Force is created by life, it is not life itself. Every life form in that galaxy (Anakin included) reproduces in the natural way to create a life form like itself.

    What?! Your fallacious reasoning aside, the Dark Side is not stronger, and nothing in the prequels even suggests (let alone prove) otherwise.

    The Dark Side is so strong in one particular use that the only being capable of defeating him has to be created by the Force itself. Otherwise, the galaxy is doomed. How is that not stronger? And if the Dark Side can be used to create life, that hardly gives good the edge.

    Once again, source? Where was it ever established that families are not allowed to breed?

    Do you not remember that whole forbidden love thing? Where Anakin could be cast out of the Jedi Order for marrying and impregnating Padme?

    Not according to them. As established in RotS, Obi-Wan questions if Anakin is the one reffered to in the prophecy and Yoda believes that the prophecy could have been misread. And after Anakin fell to the dark side and was defeated, Obi-Wan lost all faith in it.

    Obi-Wan doesn't question it, he is actually speaking as Anakin's advocate in that scene. He is giving reasons why Anakin should be trusted as a member of the council and as a spy on Palpatine.

    The question being?
    Option A requires Vader to be there. The other recognizes that, even without Vader's help, the Rebels have this whole thing wrapped up.

    There's nothing wrong with retcons, as long as they maintain continuity.

    Retcons by their very nature do the opposite.

    Nowhere is it stated or even implied that you need a high midi-chlorian count to be able to use the Force. What's implied is that it makes it easier.
    Children are taken from their families to be raised as a Jedi based on midichlorian counts, others are rejected and, by the time they are 9, they are deemed to old to even begin.

    - It's explicitly stated that midi-chlorians, not the Force, create life: "It's possible he was conceived by the midi-chlorians", "he could even use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life".

    Palpatine would've had plenty of time to escape if Luke had taken Vader's place at his side or if Luke had died.
    Proof: Luke made it out of there after redeeming his father, dragging him out to the shuttle, talking to him for a minute and then getting him on board.


    That's funny, you using the physical fitness of a 22-year old to prove that an octogenarian has similar capabilities. Plus, for him to have such invincibility that he can escape from anything less than VADER TURNING ON HIM makes him, and his Dark Side abilities, stronger than the good side.

    I]9. A) yes, it is. Two Sith, both on the Death Star. If it goes boom with them on it, the Sith are gone until a new one potentially rises up. B) Who's to say Palpatine even had a plan of escape? "Your overconfidence is your weakness" - I doubt he even believed the rebels had a chance of destroying the Death Star. [/I]
    Finally someone here understands what I'm arguing. If a new one can rise up, then it is ultimately irrelevant how this one was dispatched; the fact is it would still be a less than final victory, even if done by the Chosen One. Palpatine refuses to recognize that there is a risk involved. He is convinced only of one possible outcome: the Rebels both in space and on Endor will walk into his trap and the alliance will be destroyed, and he will be there to witness it. Into his mind the thought will not enter that there is any risk to his Empire, much less his person. He is blind to the fact that Han has destroyed the shield, that the Rebels have penetrated the outer defenses, and that Vader is clearly having second thoughts about this whole Dark Side thing. How can he be expected to know that his Death Star is about to be destroyed, or to even believe it if warned by another? "Evacuate, in our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances."

    I]Have you ever heard the phrase, "the night is darkest just before the dawn"? Light ultimately won, no matter how powerful the darkness became; that's the point.[/I]
    The point of the originals, yes. The point of the prequels is that they were hopeless without Vader's redemption.

    Obi-Wan's words to Anakin on the black sands of Mustafar carry a different context. He's basically saying, "How could you go this far? This isn't the way its supposed to be!" I know its not a direct correlation, but there's some similarities between what the Jedi expected of the Chosen One, and the Jews' hopes about the Messiah. Both wanted a badass warrior, but Anakin and Jesus were neither. In the end, they sacrificed themselves instead of others, the only narrative difference being Anakin turning to the Dark Side beforehand.

    The destruction of the Sith is what they expected and, ultimately, what they got; not forgiveness for their own sins, which doesn't really enter into the picture. My point is, the Rebels were clearly already on the winning side before Vader defected (or re-defected). As with Jesus, making him the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy required ripping those prophecies out of their context, re-writing them to fit Jesus's life and re-writing his life to fit them. In Jesus's case, because being nailed to a tree didn't deliver the Jews from Roman occupation. In Anakin's case, because his redemption originally had relevance only to Luke's life, and Lucas rather sloppily tried to re-jigger the series to focus on him and make his the savior of the whole galaxy.
     
  9. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    But not a prerequisite to use the Force, which was what you were arguing.

    No, it isn't. Learning to use the Force was never just a matter of faith, even in the OT. Every living being has midi-chlorians (which are not the Force, and therefore don't require faith). The more you have, the more attuned (not necessarily powerful) you can be. Luke didn't fully believe in the Force (and in himself) during his training on Dagobah, therefore he couldn't fully tap into it, even though his midi-chlorian count was very probably high.

    Who said it was?

    None of that contradicts that the Force can create life (through midi-chlorians).

    The dark side is not "so strong in one particular use", the Sith were. Anakin didn't destroy the dark side, he destroyed the Sith (who were exploiting the dark side, thus causing imbalance).

    So? The Force still runs stronger in certain families. The Jedi Order doesn't control that.

    Irrelevant. He still lost faith in the prophecy by the end of the movie.

    Luke was sent to confront Vader.

    I still don't know where did you got the idea that Sidious had an escape plan. He believed he had the Rebels trapped, and as Luke stated, his overconfidence was his weakness.
     
  10. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 18, 2012
    This, though, is an understanding that is reliant on the PT. there is nothing in the OT to suggest that one had to be of a certain midiclorian count - in fact midiclorians were not ever mentioned in the OT. And doesn't this contradict what you just argued (that a midiclorian count was not a pre-requisite for using the Force)?
     
  11. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Luke himself states that the Force runs strong in his family, thus establishing that he has a great connection with it. Despite that, he still needs faith.

    There is nothing in the PT that suggests that either. Only that Anakin had an unusual high count, even for Force sensitive beings.
     
  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Lucas had decided during the writing of TESB, that Vader would be the one to kill Palpatine and cemented it further with the writing of ROTJ. He was adamant in 1981 about finishing the story as he didn't want to do the PT right yet and he wasn't really interested in the ST, as he didn't have as many concrete ideas about that and he was burned out, both professionally and personally. It was imperative to Lucas that he not only eliminate Palpatine and Vader, but the Empire as a whole. Hence we had Vader's actions which were first hinted at in TESB, but the motivations for it changed by the end of ROTJ.

    Tying it into a prophecy allowed Lucas to give purpose to Anakin's life and his downfall, as well as wrap up his story, nice and neatly. As to the creation of Anakin, nothing in the OT contradicts the notion that the Force created Anakin. Hell, Lucas even teased that it wasn't the Force directly, but a Sith Lord who did it. In fact, originally it was Palpatine who created Anakin to use against the Jedi. Lucas only changed that as he felt it would be better if it was more ambiguous.

    Lucas said that there is a balance to the Force. A good and evil. Black and white. Yin and Yang. Positive and negative energies. What happens in the films is that the rise of the Sith to power, especially through the methods used in the films, results in the Force coming out of balance. The dark side of the Force grows stronger with each passing day until it reaches dominance. Only through Anakin, can the balance be restored. It isn't inherently stronger, but it is quicker and easier to use the Force through negative emotions and actions.


    The Jedi know that the Sith need to be destroyed. That was a given for years and years. The doubt with Anakin was stemming from the belief that the Chosen One would not become corrupted. That he would be this pure and noble warrior, who was above reproach. Instead, he was flawed individual who gave into temptation and personal greed. What neither side could know was that the Chosen One didn't have to be a Jedi to fulfill his destiny.

    The Jedi send Luke out to destroy the Sith because while they no longer believe in the prophecy, they believe that a Jedi must destroy the Sith. Something which the Sith were well aware of, which is why Order 66 and the Jedi Purge occurred. If one Jedi survived, it could mean the rebirth of the Jedi Order, just as one Sith surviving a thousand years ago, meant the return of the Sith Order.

    Everyone has Midichlorians within them, as Qui-gon said. But it takes a certain level of Midichlorians to qualify for training. The belief system is still there as Lucas discussed it in 81. He stated that some have a belief in the Force and some don't. Those that who will often take the time to practice and study the ways of the Force in order to use it. Others will never do so. The faith still exists as Luke has trouble using the Force until he starts to believe in it. Han doubts the Force until Luke saves him, but he still doesn't believe in it enough to even think of training to become a Jedi. Even during the making of ROTJ, Lucas said that Leia would have to be as equal to the Force as Luke, if she were to be trained. And finally, way back in 1975, Lucas wrote that the Jedi Order started because one man learned the ways of the Force and taught it to his children and grandchildren, who in turn continued on and on.

    The Force influenced the Midichlorians to create Anakin. They started the cell division which gave birth to Anakin.

    They're not encouraged to start families, but they're not forbidden from getting their freak on. Lucas stated that the Jedi are not celibate monks, but they're not family people either. That's why Qui-gon asked Shmi who was Anakin's father. He thought it might have been a Jedi who opted to get his **** *** and the end result was Anakin.

    Then Anakin betrays everything that he once stood for and as he's laying there burning, Obi-wan says, "You were the Chosen One." This shows that he lost faith in him. Couple that with, "He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil." and there you go.

    Except Palpatine could escape before the Death Star was destroyed. The Alliance was still losing until the shield is destroyed. Palpatine became distracted by the Lightsaber duel and thus didn't pay attention to the battle outside. He was only even at the Death Star because he foresaw Luke coming and had planned for the Alliance to come there. Had Luke not even been there, the battle would have ended much differently.

    Luke himself was going to be rejected because he was too old and too emotionally immature to begin the training, as per Yoda's own words.
     
  13. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    The OT leaves much to the imagination regarding the force and this is part of the reason I like it so much. All the stuff about midichlorians doesn't seem to contradict the OT as far as I can tell, as there's not that much set in stone to contradict. There are people 'strong in the force', there's a family element there. Midichlorians, whilst a bit of a blunt instrument from a storytelling point of view, just consolidate that for me.

    For me, the complete game changer is the fact that Anakin was immaculately conceived by the force. Once this happens Anakin is basically God incarnate and once the force is portrayed as being that interventionist, everything that happens subsequently becomes secondary to that fact. The elements of choice and individuals shaping their own destinies are significantly lessened in importance. This I don't particularly like as those are some of my favourite themes in the OT.
     
  14. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Wacky Wednesday Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Especially in the novelizations:

    ANH:

    "It is an energy field and something more. An aura that both controls and obeys. A nothingness that can accomplish miracles. No-one, not even the Jedi scientists, were able to truly define the Force. Possibly no-one ever will. Sometimes there is as much magic as science in the explanations of the force. Yet what is a magician but a practicing theorist? Now, let's try again."
     
  15. Moviefan2k4

    Moviefan2k4 Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 29, 2009
    I said there wasn't any direct correlation between Jesus and Anakin, but Lucas did mention purposely making Luke's father into a twisted version of Him. On an historical note, Scripture never says the Jewish Messiah would be a conqueror; that's just what they expected. My overall point in comparing the two was that the Jedi expected something of their Chosen One, but it was fulfilled in ways they never even thought of.
     
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  16. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 23, 2003
    Relocating to Saga.
     
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  17. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    I'd argue that the Force is only explained in the OT. Well, it's not even an argument...
     
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  18. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    You don't think telling us that you can have your force sensitivity tested along with your cholesterol and blood sugar is adding information?

    How about that fact that the force as an entity is willing and able to conceive a human being and give him a set purpose for living?
     
  19. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    Even before the prequels were released, I figured that Palpatine had an escape plan. Palpatine falling into the reactor and Vader getting electrocuted to death wouldn't mean anything if the Death Star II was going to blow up with them on board anyway.
     
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  20. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Not to what the Force is, no. The Force is explained by Ben in ANH and developed even further in TESB by Yoda. Midi chlorians simply explain why some people are more attuned than others.

    As explained in ANH, the Force always had some sort of control over people. The fact that it has a will was not surprising to me.
     
  21. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 23, 1999
    Given the context that that line has, it feels more like a reference to how Luke can deflect the shots from the remote. He can't use his eyes to see, but he's interacting with the Force, which is omnipresent, and knows his will; it can accentuate his strength and speed. It's not simply that it allows him to see without his eyes, because even if he could see, nobody could hit a bullet with a sword. It's accentuating his abilities to do what he wants to do, with superhuman powers added on. It guides the blade because he swings it, is what I'm saying.
     
  22. TX-20

    TX-20 Force Ghost star 4

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    Jun 21, 2013
    Luke: "If the dark side isn't stronger, why didn't you finish off the Emperor when you had the chance?"
    Yoda: "Because, the dark side is, um, Leia is your sister! You kissed your sister!! Focus on that."
     
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  23. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    But explaining the force goes beyond merely stating what it IS. It includes how it behaves, can be used and how potential sensitivity to it can be measured.

    'Some sort of control over people' isn't quite at the same level of intervention as bypassing the reproductive process in order to create a person for an express purpose.
     
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  24. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    And what is wrong with it simply being "A good man is seduced by evil but redeems himself through his own son."? Why is this not a "purpose"? His story would be wrapped up by him returning to the light and dying as the good man he once again is.
    To me the whole prophecy thing is underdeveloped and thus the time could have been better spent elsewhere. If you going to have the prophecy there, do something interesting with it. As it is now, to me it seems tacked on to make the story more "Epic".


    Well in the PT, the Dark Side is so powerful that it can in some ways cripple ALL the Jedi and limit their powers. I don't know any info that suggests that the "Light side" can do something similar to the Sith. So the Dark Side can weaken the Jedi, that sounds pretty powerful.

    I don't really think so, some things have changed. Even tough it is not directly stated, the implication is that below a certain Midi count, you can't become a Jedi. That means that faith alone is not enough, you must have over a certain amount of midis. If you don't then it doesn't matter how much faith you have, you still can't be a Jedi. It also seems that having a high midi count boosts your abilities even if you have no knowledge of the Force or have any faith in it.

    Also Lucas have said something about that a loss of Midis will reduce your Force potential and that is why Vader in the suit is not as powerful as he would have been otherwise.
    So it seems faith has taken a backseat to biology.

    It/they must have done something more than this, otherwise Anakin would have been female and a clone of Shmi.
    And if the Force can do this, why can't it influence the midis in Palpatine's body to stop re-producing?
    As his midi count goes down, his power will weaken and he will eventually die as the midi count reaches zero. Or influence the midis in his body to give him cancer and kill him that way.
    Or if the Force could foresee Palpatine and what he would do, influence the midis in his mother body to make her barren. Thus Palpatine would not be born and no more problem.
    Once the Force is taking direct action in response to what it sees as a threat, then that opens the door to all manner of other possibilities.

    First, Tarkin could have escaped the first DS but he didn't.
    Second, where do you get the idea that Palpatine was only at the DS because he foresaw Luke coming there? He knew about the rebel force but was surprised that Luke was with them.
    He knew that Luke would in time seek Vader out and told Vader that when that happens, he must bring Luke to him. Nothing about him knowing before hand that Luke would hand himself to Vader at Endor. He was at the DS as bait to lure the rebels into a trap and also that he could see their end with his own eyes. Luke was just an added bonus.
    Third, the rebels wanted to destroy the DS and kill the Emperor, don't you think they would figure that Palpatine would try to escape and have some plan to counter that?
    Fourth, how would the battle end differently? Well yes, without Luke, Han would get eaten and the ewoks would not have joined the rebels. So then the shield would never go down and the rebels would loose. But assuming that all the stuff on Endor happened and the shield was brought down, what would be different then? The rebel fighters would start their attack and blow up the DS2. Maybe Palpatine would get away but why would the battle end differently?


    [/QUOTE]

    I doubt it, Yoda was only testing Luke. Besides Yoda has only himself to blame for Luke being too old as he could have brought Luke to him sooner. And the only other option, Leia, is just as old, so if Luke is rejected for that reason then so is she. Then Yoda has no one to stop the Sith which means he has given up and allowed the sith to win.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
  25. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Which Yoda does in TESB. Anyway, once we know what it is, it ceases to be a mystery (or as mysterious, as some argue). Midi-chlorians were introduced to explain why Anakin was special, even among Jedi, and it also explains why some individuals are more attuned than others, and why Obi-Wan and Yoda waited for Luke and not some random Joe. We don't know anything more about the Force itself than we did during the OT. Well, we learned that it has a will, but that only increases the alleged mystery. Heck, I never heard any outcry when Yoda was explaining the Force to Luke in TESB, or how it's "ruining the mystery" of it all...

    Although that's never stated, the OT never implied that being a Jedi relied on mere faith either.