ST Palpatine "Gran Palpa" Discussion Thread

Thank you for sharing that clip!

At first, he does seem to confirm that cloning was involved, especially with that line, "More than a clone, less than a man." And he does reference how Snoke and the other clones are meant to visually give you a hint about Palpatine's return. But the rest of his comments seem to move away from that, and indeed the discussion over cloning was a response to a specific fan question, so I wonder how much that is involved.

Consider other comments he made during the Q&A. He seems to be saying that it's the same physical body as the one in ROTJ. Here are the ones I thought were most relevant, starting with a comment related to how everyone thought Palpatine was dead:

"But I wasn’t of course, I was very severely injured, physically debilitated and battered. But the mind was as keen and as sharp and as dark as ever."

"In the original script, there was much more physical detail. Pretty horrific physical detail. . . . Originally, JJ perhaps felt that we had to explain how he was physically treated when Vader chucked him down that shaft. And then after a while we thought, well, I don’t think that needs to be over-explained. You’ll see that terrible face, and you’ll see he’s in a contraption, a sort of support machine."

"That mind kept alive somehow. You probably noticed the tubes coming out of his body."

"But the most frustrating thing for him, at the beginning of the movie, is he can’t get back to his old self. He doesn’t have complete control of over his own body. His progress in the film is to get himself back to being, I won’t use the word human, but Emperor again. Which eventually he does.
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To me that says that perhaps he wasn't a clone, and that his actual body from ROTJ was somehow kept alive or resurrected. Perhaps cloning technology was somehow involved in that, and that might explain why he looks more like his Republic-era self for a while. And frankly that's the biggest mystery regarding his return. If he survived and was not a clone, why did he not look like the Emperor?

When I listened to the discussion in the video, my impression was that he didn't look like the Emperor because he wasn't completely and fully back in control of his body. His body had been found and resurrected, but his spirit wasn't fully back yet. It was a botched process, and he did not have his full Sith power. And it's only once he is able to fully bring himself to life that he ends up resembling his Emperor look.

In a sense, he's more like a ghola from Dune Messiah than he is a clone: a resurrected and regenerated body that does not automatically have all of its memories. He wasn't just brought back through cloning or resurrection, he had to work to bring his spirit and mind back as well. Like others have said, this does seem to match Snoke's comments in the Kylo Ren comment as well. And this reference seems more plausible if we consider how his "I am all the Sith" comment also seems to reference Reverend Mothers in Dune. Just some thoughts.

 

I'm sticking with my theory: Snoke was an acolyte of Palpatine (Perhaps even the head of the sith acolytes) in the unknown regions and was his own entity. The Snoke clones were an experiment that were part of Palpatine's plan to return. He needed a body for his essence to inhabit (he did learn to cheat death, his spirit lingered, perhaps the first Sith in a thousand years to do so) and the Snoke clones were part of that cloning project. Ultimately, they succeeded in cloning his original body and his plan was to use Kylo Ren as his new apprentice. Then, somewhere along the way, he learned that Rey was alive and upon learning about the Dyad (most likely through Snoke as he would have recognized their connection) incorporated that into his plan.

It works for me because it A) doesn't totally destroy the ending of ROTJ and B) is the least convoluted version of events in what is already a very convoluted and contrived ST. It also lets the characters retain their own agency which makes Snoke (and by extension Kylo and the ST story) much more interesting.

 

On my third viewing it was clear beyond all doubt that Palpatine only discovered the Dyad when he accidentally tapped into it and saw his fingers beginning to restore themselves. I mention this not to dismiss all of your theory but to add some informational corrective to part of it.

 

There’s also the fact of the Death Star ruins themselves. We also thought they were disintegrated, but somehow they were not. To me that could be a parallel of how Palpatine or his original body somehow survived.

The visual dictionary is even coy about the Death Star ruins, saying more than once that it was a mystery how they could have been so intact not only after the explosion but also after crashing on Kef Bir. The book hints at this being related to hyperspatial effects involved in the explosion.

That parallel also explains why Ochi knew that Palpatine’s wayfinder was in Kef Bir, and in that specific location.

 

The Plagueis novel is not longer canon, but it alludes to that period. According to it, Sidious<Plagueis<Tenebrous<Twi'lek Sith. That Twi'lek lived 200 years before TPM.
http://www.theforce.net/latestnews/story/Interview_Plagueis_Author_James_Luceno_142844.asp

Also, the Yinchorri (3 mt tall repitilians) template, looks retrospectively, sometimes, as the template for Snoke. Those agressive, FS yinchorri were to be used against the jedi. Plagueis talks about cloning them with the kaminoans. Questions like 'can compliance be bred into them without affecting their violent tendencies?' are asked.

Sidious ends up killing Plagueis, of course:

We know what happened with Maul and the Nemoidians and Dooku. The novel ends and the Yinchorri template was left as a 'little opening'.
Maybe it was reused or adopted. Snoke was a 3 mt tall reptilian at some point during TFA development.

In the novel, Kamino was known by Tenebrous, Plagueis' master. That's closer, chronologically, to that 'rend in the force', and to Snoke's age - and, now, to the High Republic period.

 

y'know what, we'll probably get at least some more information on the technicalities of Palpatine's resurrection when the TROS novel hits, there's always deleted scene / cut script stuff in there. I fully expect the Snoke thing to be as vague as it was in the movie, though.

 

I still think Exegol could exist outside the regular universe as a Force realm like Mortis. The special properties of the Force present in Exegol are necessary part of reviving and keeping Palpatine 'alive'. Palpatine may also be trapped there. With the power of Exegol - even with the huge machines - he would die. So the Force itself and the Force in that location could be a bigger factor in his resurrection than the other technology keeping him alive.

 

You reminded me of something. Snoke said "I cannot be betrayed..." however in TROS Palps tells Kylo "perhaps you have betrayed me". Is it possible that Palps made sure that Snoke would feel invincible like programmed to feel that way, yet Snoke's discrepit body is due to Palps himself descrepit. There are elements of Palps in Snoke other words. Except any power to ursurp the Phantom Emperor who has plenty of secrets himself. Meanwhile Ben is completely and obviously independent of himself hence, Snoke would not actually have the invincibility he thinks he has.

MJ

 

I’m very curious about what Snoke’s role was before TROS was made and how it compares with what it ended up being. Has Serkis said anything post-TROS regarding his character?

I’m also not sure whether his deformities/injuries are still due to injuries/the dark side or are instead a side effect of a botched cloning process. Maybe we’ll need to wait for a high res view of the Exegol tanks to have a better idea.

In any case, it’s odd that they would show Snoke clones to explain how Palpatine came back. Why not Palpatine clones? Is it because they wanted to kill two birds with one stone? Or would there not be a reason for Palpatine to still have clones around? Was he even cloned after all?

Going off Ian’s comments, I’m growing more convinced that his damaged body was recovered, healed somewhat using cloning technology (hence his pre-ROTS appearance), and that he was resurrected in that same body. But not fully, so it took the power of the dyad to let him fully embody, and that channeling of dark side power once again resulted in his face mutating with the dark side as it had so long ago. For some reason, the idea of his spirit somehow existing independent of his body bothers me. It was always something I disliked in the EU. So yeah, I prefer the ghola approach.

 

It keeps all of it more mysterious. Was Snoke damaged in life, and his clones later created to match that state? But wouldn't a clone be free injuries? Then again wouldn't a clone start as a baby? These clones seem like replicas of old Snoke. I think Snoke may be a ghola.

Also could Snoke be a lot of smoke and mirrors like the Wizard of Oz? When he hits Kylo Ren with lightening, Snoke bounces the lightening off the floor? (Not sure I believe what I'm about to write, but here goes...) Could special technology be used to give Snoke the appearance of Force Powers? Is Snoke's thrown room specially made with devices to fake Force abilities. Tractor beams to move lightsabers and people. Generators to shoot lightening. Things like reading Rey's mind are actually Palpatine working through Snoke.

I like this. Original body brought to Exegol. There it is patched up through the force, cloning, and technology. The original spirit is resurrected or take possession of body. There is some weird stuff going on with crane Palpatine physically. For one thing his shoulders are either deformed / broken, or he doesn't have a complete torso and his left arm connects to the machines not his body. I'm not sure Palaptine even had legs. I'm not sure if he's even technically alive. It's like Palaptine's soul inhabits the reanimated body of Palpatine, but it needs all these machines to keep it going. So the body might not be alive so much as reanimated, like a puppet or machine. Palpatine's soul controls it and makes look alive, but it's more like a pilot than part of the body.

While Snoke could be a ghola, I think Palpatine learned a trick to keep his spirit alive and intact without his body while also not becoming one with the Force. It's like the opposite of Force Ghost. And Palpatine may only be able to pull this trick off long term on Exegol where the power of the dark side and rules of the Force bend in the Sith's favor. Where Force Ghost lets go so completely they become one with the Force, the Sith hold on to life so strongly they remain anchored in the living world as if they are still alive. Being the embodiment of generations of past Sith Lord helps this.

And I'm wondering if Palpatine's spirit returned to Exegol before his body. It's like a Pac-Man ghost. Upon death the Sith Lord's Spector goes back to Exegol if it doesn't take over a new body. And Exegol is a magical place. Possibly a Force Realm outside the regular galaxy like Mortis. Ancient Sith Lords somehow found their way to Exegol and conquered it.

I'm thinking that's the only place Palpatine can survive in his weakened condition. He's essentially trapped there. He can still do things to effect the galaxy, manipulate the Force, and see through the Force. He can send things he created out from Exegol. He himself and the power that keeps 'alive' is limited to that place, similar to the Grail in The Last Crusade.

 

I think they're going for that it's his original body because Palpatine looks like an re-animated corpse, basically, his fingers are stitched together, his eyes have no pupils like a zombie. He sort of looks like what someone would look like if they were thrown down a shaft and then exploded, multiple times. And we don't see any legs, he could just be a torso connected to the robo arm. It makes his return very "unnatural"

 

Leaked images of the TROS novel has revealed how Palpatine returned and what state he's in.

Spoiler

 

Thanks. Wish we could have received more details like this in the actual film, it needed it so badly.

 

I see, so Palpatine's original spirit in a clone body.

Doesn't explain where the spirit was between ROTJ and being put in the clone body though. I hope it says more elsewhere.

But that (gross) description of his state explains some things.

Like others had speculated, it seems a mix of Imperial technology and "unnatural" powers.
Makes sense when he says "I've died before."

But maybe we already knew all this.

 

I'm a bit confused tho, the clone body thing does explain why he looks like a decayed but unscarred Palpatine for most of the movie. But how does he regain the scars he gained from his fight with Windu after he drains the dyad

 

I'm mostly ok with this explanation, I think it works, and I'm glad they clarify it's actually his spirit, just inhabiting the clone body. It also makes the later plot point of him trying to inhabit Rey's body make sense, the clone body is failing and he needs to hop to a new one.

If anything, this just solidifies my belief that those aren't actually scars, and that's actually his true face, he purposely revealed his true face as he was being electrocuted to gain sympathy from Anakin.

 

A clone made the most sense. For such a huge plot point, Palpatine’s return felt so pedestrian. Characters should’ve been in fearful awe of his presence being announced. They could’ve done so much more with the character and everything around him, but it felt ho hum.

 

The fact that Palpatine is a Clone is perfect ! and everything makes sense - he died and was dead in ROTJ and his minions brought him back through Cloning and thus of course why he wasn't at full power - the only petty was that this wasn't made clear in the movie to appease all the nay sayers......

 

This guy seems completely hung up on the body being a clone while not focusing on the spirit transfer. He makes it sound like the Emperor in 6 is not the Emperor in 9 and thus Anakin killed the real Palpatine. It doesn't matter what body Palpatine possesses, it's still Palpatine if his dark spirit is possessing it.



Also, I am going to assume the book makes sure Palpatine can't transfer his spirit to another clone or force sensitive being in the end.

 

I'm glad the novel supports what is only implied in the film, which is that Palpatine is working against time to find a successor or a person who can accept his spirit, since he will weaken and die even with the technology and alchemy and so forth. He may not even be sure the transfer will work but it is the only way he can have even a limited ongoing existence as a demon on Rey's shoulder or whatever. failing that he hopes Kylo will bow to him and take on the mantle of a real Sith lord. It is my view, though not everyone will share it, that for all his self-centeredness Palpatine really believes in the Sith tradition and wants it to continue. He fears its disappearance beyond just the prospect of fearing his own personal death.

I'm also of the view that his transfer into Rey's body, if successful, would not render her "possessed" in the sense of losing her own identity or agency. It would involve a pact with the dark side however and she would find it very difficult to turn back afterward. He would have access to her thoughts and be able to suggest or urge certain choices on her. Much more difficult to ignore than Force bridge telepathy with Kylo. So it's a very good thing she didn't go through with the sacrifice of hate or whatever that ritual is called.

 

I like the clone aspect of this. The ST is basically a film adaptation of Dark Empire. I’m looking forward to seeing what’s added to the comic adaptation of TROS.

 

But if that's his real face then why doesn't he just appear like that from the start of the movie? There's no need to keep up appearances for him right?

 

The same here, I wish there had been more detail on this too. It seems to be the general theme of TROS, all action, fast paces, flashing lights and beautiful imagery and resonating monents. But little, to no, detail. It should have been two movies to tell the story effectively.

But what it does show in this novel extract is that Palpatine did know the ability to cheat death. His other body dies at the end of Jedi and his spirit survives.

In my opinion, that blue smoke that is seen after Palpatine tumbles down the reactor, that would be Palpatine's spirit escaping in the form of dark energy and it would, overtime, find its way back to Exogol to inhabit another clone body