Palpatine Was Right When He Said "The Sith And Jedi Are Similar In Almost Every Way"

Everyone assumes Palpatine saying this was nothing more than a kinard to help facilitate his master plan for converting Anakin to the Darkside, by juxtaposing the Jedi and Sith, with regards to their morality, and ambitions. However I view it differently.

After watching ROTS, what Palpatine said began to ring true to a certain extent in my mind as well. I saw more than a few Sith-esque traits exhibited, by the supposedly always "good" Jedi.

First off, the Jedi council wants Anakin to spy on Palpatine, which of course involves "deception".

Next, when he should have been "patient" and waited for Yoda to return, Mace impulsively heads to Palps office, and once Mace has disarmed Sids, he trys to kill him, instead of placing him under arrest.

Then we've got "never attack" Yoda going to now Emperor Palpatines quarters, with clear, pre-meditated intentions of killing him.

And finally, the the most egregiously Sith-esque Jedi moment of all, has to go to Obi-Wan for leaving helpless Anakin to be burned alive at the lava riverbank. I always assumed the "good guys" showed mercy towards a beaten opponent-in this case a totally dismembered one!

Anyway, those are the main scenes that I interpreted as Jedi doing a pretty good Sith impersonation in the film. Sure there are a few more. Your thoughts?
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Yoda: "Destroy the Sith, we must.

Peace, justice and free-will exist in their galaxy due mainly because the jedi, the guardians of peace and justice, keep it that way. The sith seek to destroy democracy and bring oppression and tyranny to the galaxy. What else were Obi-wan and yoda supposed to do, if not kill them? Live happilly in peace together? Come on. Even a jedi has to kill, should the occaision call for it.

 

Well, you don't have to tell me all of the laws of the Republic if you don't want to, just the ones that apply to this discussion. You're so convinced that what Mace did was deffinately illegal that I just assumed you were familiar with the Republic's laws. Are you saying this point was laid out in the novelization of ROTS? If so please explain as it could only help your case. I'm not saying that just because Mace does something that it's automatically legal. I'm saying that if the movies don't contain any evidence that what he did was illegal then I have no reason to assume that it was.

I guess we'll just have to disagree about the confession being enough evidence for an arrest. Mace clearly thinks it is and no where is a contrary position stated in the film. Also the films never lay out what is exactly required for a legal arrest. I'm not going to assume that it works exactly like it does in the U.S. anyway. The Sith's history when in power is known and the Jedi are known to have stopped them, or at the very least it can be presumed that the history was recorded, so don't you think that the Senate would listen to the Jedi in such matters. Dooku may be dead but he was a Sith, he confessed to Obi-Wan that his master was in a high office in the Republic, he was taking orders from this master when he started the Seperatists. It's not like they wouldn't have any case against Palpatine. It's nothing like Catholics calling for the arrest of Jews. Maybe if the Catholics were charged with keeping peace and justice in the country and winning a war against an army led by the Jews, and then found out the identity of the Jew leader and went to make an arrest, you'd have a similar situation.

As for your President example, if you were in a position of authority and the President had confessed to you that he was behind the war then you've got a case. The President can be arrested for anything that an ordinary citizen can be. He's not above the law just because he's been elected to the highest office. And if he killed the officers who came to arrest him for his crimes he would be charged with murder. Criminals don't get a pass to kill cops just because they have guns when they c

 

A lot of valid pts here.
Palps was manipulating Anakin so of course he'd say anything to
do so. By making the Sith and Jedi sound so similar he was trying
to make it easier for Ani to rationalize his turn.
If you thought there wasn't a huge difference b/w two choices and
one in particular may give you a huge payoff [saving life] then
what do you think you'd pick?

 

A lot of valid pts here.
Palps was manipulating Anakin so of course he'd say anything to
do so. By making the Sith and Jedi sound so similar he was trying
to make it easier for Ani to rationalize his turn.
If you thought there wasn't a huge difference b/w two choices and
one in particular may give you a huge payoff [saving life] then
what do you think you'd pick?



Anakin is a somewhat intelligent individual AND he's human. I would definitely choose the safety of my family over an orginazation that doesn't seem to trust me.

 

Well, 'somewhat intelligent' goes out the window for me when
he chooses to go on his murderous rampage and kill childen.
I was just providing a rationalization for why Palps made the
Sith/Jedi sound so similar. I definitely don't agree with
Ani's choice no matter what the original reason was.

 

Now back to Mace's ability to make an arrest, I could get a visitors pass to the whitehouse, walk up to the president of the United States and declare that I am putting him under arrest for fighting a war to gain more power(though I am in support of the war)....would that not be treason? Or at the very least an arrestible offense?Now think that same example but I came in with guns, would the president not be able to kill his would be arresters?



Exactly.

As for your President example, if you were in a position of authority and the President had confessed to you that he was behind the war then you've got a case. The President can be arrested for anything that an ordinary citizen can be. He's not above the law just because he's been elected to the highest office. And if he killed the officers who came to arrest him for his crimes he would be charged with murder.

Yep, he can be arrested. But only after proper arrest warrants and indictments have been issued. Where was Maces arrest warrant or decree by the Senate in this case ?? That is Maces biggest problem. His arrogance makes him believe that HE is the highest authority in the galaxy. I believe the Jedi serve at the pleasure of the Senate.

 

Where does it say that the Jedi have no policing powers and no power to arrest anyone? Nowhere. And while it is never directly stated that the Jedi can arrest people we have GL comparing them to sherrifs, Obi's line about being the protectors of justice, and being called peacekeepers (a word used to describe our policemen). If they didn't have that power don't you think that Palps would have brought that up with a line like, "You don't have the authority to arrest me?" It seems like a pretty logical line if the Jedi don't have the power to arrest people. Even in the book all he asks is if being a Sith is being a crime. He never brings up that they don't have the authortiy. And now for the evidence. The Jedi know that the other remaining Sith is behind the Seperatists and then Palps tells a Jedi that he is the Sith Lord. That's a confession to treason right then and there, resulting in a fully legal arrest. It may not hold uo in court but it is enough for an arrest. And then when the Jedi go to arrest him he kills 3 of them. Well guess what it doesn't matter then because now they can get him on 3 cases of murder, attempted murder and resisting arrest.

Now say I'm a Police Chief and there has been a murder. They policemen now that one a 5 foot 9 white male with dark blone hair commited the murder and then I tell one of the policemen that I am the murderer. Wouldn't that warrant my arrest if the only evidence is that I confessed to it and match the description? Yes it would.

 

"The jedi may have done what was "right" but they did not do what was LEGAL."

sometimes doing what is right, supercedes doing whats within the confines of the law

 

Now back to Mace's ability to make an arrest, I could get a visitors pass to the whitehouse, walk up to the president of the United States and declare that I am putting him under arrest for fighting a war to gain more power(though I am in support of the war)....would that not be treason? Or at the very least an arrestible offense?


Geez, i hardly call 4 Jedi masters , tourists with a visitors pass!,the Jedi are fighting the War, and the Jedi are the ones leading the Clones.
I don't know why people are still defending Palpatines actions. Anakin is a Jedi,Palpatine told him that he was a Sith, Anakins word is good enough to Arrest the Chancellor. And that is What they went to do, ARREST him. Palpatine is the one who attacked and murdered 3 jedi first, Which is a real good measure of his guilt and intentions.Really they just wanted to Arrest him and let the Senate decide his fate. seems pretty legal to me. after he kills the 3 Jedi, he has already forefitted his right to live, Mace is completely justified in trying to destroy him at this point. The Jedi "ARE' two sides of the same coin, but opposite sides, one is good and honorable, the other side is Evil , and deceitful. simple

 

I think Obi-Wan thought Anakin died on Mustafar, but couldn't be saved, and couldn't turn back to the light. The reason to attach Luke to Vader was because if Luke killed Vader he would of been Palpatine's puppet, because of all the anger and hate he built up from when Vader threatened about Leia. All Obi-Wan did when talking to Luke about his father was try to make their bond strong so Luke doesn't go down the same path. However, Luke believed his father could be turned back to the light, and Obi-Wan says " Then you've already failed " because of his past experience. Obi-Wan believed he had made a mistake ( Even though keeping Anakin alive was what killed the Emperor ) and that he should of killed Anakin. He didn't want Luke to make the same mistake, but Luke succeeding where Obi-Wan failed.

 

First off, the Jedi council wants Anakin to spy on Palpatine, which of course involves "deception".

Like the Jedi haven't spied before. And they have good reason with Palpatine. He might be becoming a dictator. That's against the Republic constitution.

Next, when he should have been "patient" and waited for Yoda to return, Mace impulsively heads to Palps office, and once Mace has disarmed Sids, he trys to kill him, instead of placing him under arrest.

Get your facts straight. Mace was on his way to Palpatine to tell him to hand over control, because the war is over. Grievous is dead. Anakin tells him that he's a Sith, so it is Mace's duty to arrest him. Which he does. Palpatine resists and kills three Jedi. Mace arrests him after the fight but Palpatine attacks Mace again, leaving him no choice. You conveniently forget the arresting.

Then we've got "never attack" Yoda going to now Emperor Palpatines quarters, with clear, pre-meditated intentions of killing him.

After Palpatine ordered two Stormtroopers to kill him. Besides, the Sith have to die on principal. That's how it's always worked.

And finally, the the most egregiously Sith-esque Jedi moment of all, has to go to Obi-Wan for leaving helpless Anakin to be burned alive at the lava riverbank. I always assumed the "good guys" showed mercy towards a beaten opponent-in this case a totally dismembered one!

Nope. Obi-wan wasn't feeling merciful that day. Nor could he kill an unarmed man.

 

Obi-Wan never watched a helpless Anakin burn alive, but he did watch the Sith who betrayed and murdered Anakin Skywalker, the Sith named Darth Vader. It was a good move for Obi-Wan to leave him alive(the will of the Force), Anakin would eventualy comeback to destroy Vader and the Emporer thus restoring balance to the Force and fullfilling the Prophecy.

 

Where was Obi-Wan's warrant or Senate decree to go after Dooku? Or Grievous? Was he overstepping his authority in those situations? If you can accept that the Jedi were given the proper authority to deal with those Seperatist leaders, why is it so difficult to believe the Jedi had the authority to deal with the guy who was giving them their orders?

Where is it shown, or even hinted at, that the Jedi even need arrest warrants? Mace doesn't think he needs one, the 3 Jedi masters that occompany him don't seem to think he needs one, Anakin doesn't seem to think he needs one, and Palpatine himself doesn't seem to think he needs one. Why wouldn't Palpatine ask to see the arrest warrant if one was needed? So, that's 4 Jedi masters, 1 Jedi knight, and 1 Sith lord that all accept that Mace has the authority to arrest Palpatine. So there's my evidence from the movies that supports my contention that Mace acted well within his authority. Where's your evidence from the movies that shows otherwise?

 

But THATS EXACTLY THE POINT, the jedi believe themselves to be above the senate, hence them having to "take over the senate" when they had ousted Palpatine....Do you truly believe the jedi would have been able to tell the senate they had just arrested there leader without any evidence, then you also have the fact Palpatine is like the godfather of the Republic and the senate is behind him(did you not hear the cheers after it was announced the remaining jedi would be destroyed?

Once again, everyone in this thread in support of the jedi are only basicly saying..

Because there jedi, they can do whatever they want. And ONCE AGAIN, the jedi are NOT the police, they are protectors of the republic, and generals, THEY ARE NOT IN A POSITION TO MAKE ARRESTS, especially of the LEADER of the republic. While I grow tired of going over this over and over again I will once again point out why the jedi had no authority to arrest him.

"He controls the senate and the courts!!!"

Wait, wait? is this the same man who said minutes earlier that he was arresting him for the senate?So the man hes arresting controls the thing hes arresting him for?

Now explain that to me.

 

JEDI: use the force for knowledge and defense
True

SITH: evil crazy-ass dudes Use the force for obtaining control and absolute power

Do you truly believe the jedi would have been able to tell the senate they had just arrested there leader without any evidence, then you also have the fact Palpatine is like the godfather of the Republic and the senate is behind him(did you not hear the cheers after it was announced the remaining jedi would be destroyed?

I don't think the Jedi would have been able to take control of the Senate without looking like the "bad guys"

 

Perhaps thats true, but as it is, they came out like traitorious assasins...Id say they could of come out atleast a little better.

 

They don't believe themselve to be above the Senate.They say that they'll have to take over the Senate to ensure a peaceful transition to the new leadership if/when Palpatine is removed. This was in case Palpatine wouldn't give up his temporary powers voluntarily. If he had done that there would be no need to take over the Senate. The Jedi are saying that they'll have to take over the Senate so that the Republic can be restored to how it previously functioned, with the Jedi working for the Senate. I'd hardly call that believing that they're above the Senate. The Senate gave away powers, based on lies, to the point where they were not really a Republic anymore. The Jedi, being defenders of the Republic, are charged with making sure the Republic survives, which means restoring the proper government.

I think the Jedi would have been able to tell the Senate that they had arrested their leader because he confessed to being the Sith Lord behind the Clone Wars, which he then used to gain more power within the government. Sure they supported Palpatine, because they thought he was protecting them not leading an army against them, but they also supported the Jedi until Palpatine lied to them about a Jedi plot to take over the Republic. That was after the supposed arrest would have taken place so the Senate would have bean more supportive of the Jedi at that time than when they applauded their slaughter. I'm not saying the Senate would have convicted him, but it seems reasonable to me that a confession to leading a war against the Republic is enough for an arrest.

And since we're characterizing the opposing side, everyone in this thread opposed to the Jedi are basically saying...

I want to believe that the Jedi are bad and so I'm going to assume that they have no authority to take action against Sidious because it supports my claims. Just because you keep saying that they have no authority and put it in all caps doesn't mean the movies support this. At least this time you provided something from the movie to try to help your case. I'm not saying that the Jedi can do whatever they want. I'm saying that the scope of their authority to keep peace and justice in the Republic is never clearly laid out in the films. Thus, it's unreasonable in my view to assume that you know for sure that they absolutely can't ever arrest anyone, or assume to know what the requirements for such an arrest would be. Especially since the movie seems to support the idea that the Jedi can arrest Palpatine at that point in the film and never contradicts this view.

As for your evidence, I must then ask, did they have the authority to arrest chancellors before Palpatine had control of the Senate and courts? If not, then your evidence is irrelevent because it then wouldn't matter who controlled the Senate or courts, they'd be overstepping their bounds. If you be

 

The Jedi have a clear duty to the Republic. Protect it from the Sith and would be dictators. Palpatine is both of them. Arresting him would be a blessing. And Anakin would testifiy that Palpatine confessed to him that he was a Sith Lord. Once the Separatist Council has been found arrested for war crimes, they would have to testify that Darth Sidious planned the whole affair. Lucas says that Mace Windu is doing the right thing by arresting Palpatine.

Wait, wait? is this the same man who said minutes earlier that he was arresting him for the senate?So the man hes arresting controls the thing hes arresting him for?

Now explain that to me.

Mace realizes while Palpatine is using the Sith Lightning that he can get off scott free, no matter how much evidence they have. He controls them. He can give the orders. He can spin it any way he wants to. Thus Mace realizes that the only way to end this, is to kill Palpatine.

 

This thread sure reminds me of the various "the jedi are actually bad guys" threads.

As far as sith and jedi being "similar in almost every way", I'd disagree. They have similarities... I mean, they use the force and have lightsabers, but their philosophies are practically polar opposites.

Oh, and as far as all the talk about arrest warrants go, I'm sure there are provisions in the republic for extenuating and emergency circumstances. If you want to assume the legal system in Star Wars is similar to that of the western world, that is.

 

The Jedi weren't evil, but there was definately evil within the Jedi.

 

He was completely flipping the facts around to try and make it sound good to Anakin. It's about like comparing Devil worshipers to Christians on the basis that they both think they are right and try to get others to think the same way as they do. Of course they aren't really similar, but you can reword it to make it not sound so bad and insinuate that there are really consistencies between the two.

 

Light Side or Dark Side, it's all the same thing. The Force if the Force, of course, of course. ...I made a funny.

 

So what your saying, coincidentally, is the same thing ive been saying this whole thread, That Mace Windu did infact intend to kill Palpatine, he believes him in control of the very thing he says hes arresting him for. Itd be like someone arresting Bill Gates, because bill gates said so. It makes NO SENSE....but then again it is Mace the idiot Windu.

 

So what your saying, coincidentally, is the same thing ive been saying this whole thread, That Mace Windu did infact intend to kill Palpatine, he believes him in control of the very thing he says hes arresting him for. Itd be like someone arresting Bill Gates, because bill gates said so. It makes NO SENSE....but then again it is Mace the idiot Windu.


This is a repost of mine from another thread. Just my opinion on the arrest

Augh, when he had him beat the first time he said, AGAIN, "you are under arrest my lord, you lose". Then "NO, NO" from Sidious and the lightning show.

He told him he was under arrest twice. Once when they showed up and then again after he had him down. In the meantime 3 masters died and Sidious tried to get him with lightning.

What was Mace suppose to do? Keep just trying to arrest him? Sids made it very obvious that he was not going alive. The sith was the one that dealt in absolutes

The fact that Mace said they would need to move quickly to save the Jedi Order was in no way showing attachment to the order itself. The order stood for the greater good of mankind. Now if he had said "we need to move quickly or the council will be in trouble", then he would have been showing that he was attached to his position.

And BTW, do you think Yoda was facing Sidious with the idea of arresting him, or Obi-wan versus Vader, or Qui-gon versus Maul? No. Why is Mace demonized for it? Especially when he offered surrender twice.

As for Annikan's little "It's not the jedi way" statement, well, that's obviously a self serving one. I doubt he would have killed Dookoo had he thought he could have saved Padme. It's only when there's something in it for him that he wants to suddenly follow code. But again, the code is not absolute... only the sith deal in absolutes.




My basic point is that the Jedi as keepers of the peace are servants of the senate, but not bound by it. They have no responsibility to follow a beaurocracy (spelling) that they know is being controlled by a sith lord