1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Palpatine's Machinations

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by FightoftheForgotten, Jan 13, 2022.

  1. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    May 19, 2020
    The Anakin discussion has gone off the rails (it's mostly my fault) and I think a lot of people would like to continue to talk about the Chosen One.

    So here is the thread where we can discuss just what exactly Sheev "the Phantom Menace" Palpatine was actually doing behind the scenes in the PT. Does it make sense? Is it muddled and overly convoluted for no discernable reason? Let's discuss!
    whostheBossk likes this.
  2. lord_sidious_

    lord_sidious_ Jedi Knight star 3

    Feb 19, 2019
    Well in AOTC the villain is still largely meant to be mysterious. By ROTS there was way too much happening so it wasn't worth pausing the progress of events to cram in an explanation of a failed plan from 10+ years ago. If it had been a TV series then maybe they would fit more explanations in, but movies are meant to be short.

    I would think his Plan A must have been "better" than Plan B in some way for that to be his initial choice. Maybe he wanted the Trade Federation's powerbase to grow large enough to be a threat to the Republic? So basically what he had the Separatists do ten years later, perhaps that could have started some years earlier if the TF successfully forced Padme into signing the treaty in TPM. He must have had another strategy to get rid of Valorum (e.g. have someone accuse Valorum of accepting bribes from the TF and deliberately allowing their forces to grow so much) and become Chancellor himself before the war breaks out.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2022
    StartCenterEnd likes this.
  3. lord_sidious_

    lord_sidious_ Jedi Knight star 3

    Feb 19, 2019
    On second thought, I don't think the war could have started earlier, as the clones wouldn't have been ready yet. But it could have been easier. Dooku had to do a lot of negotiation work to gather enough forces to get the war started on time. If the TF had more power and Maul was still there with them, it would be less work.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2022
  4. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Well, I have talked about this in various threads but trying to sum up and be less than a Bible in length. (Note TRYING)

    Palpatine was behind the blockade and the invasion was planned. But Valorum involved the Jedi which was not expected and so the plans did not change but were accelerated. End game was always to invade and have Padme sign some treaty, which then would be presented to the senate. The idea, I think, is that Valorum would be seen as ineffective as he could not settle this blockade and if he were to accept this "treaty", Palpatine could say "This treaty was obviously signed under duress, this is nonsense." And call for a vote against Valorum and get elected. Part of this is speculation but mostly based on what is said.
    On the whole, I can sort of go with this. Palpatine is basically creating a crisis in order to get elected to a position of power.
    Some questions do arise, if Naboo would become part of the TF, would that not mean that Palpatine is no longer a senator as the TF already has a person in the senate. If so, how could he become chancellor if he is not a senator?

    But Padme gets away and he sends Maul to get her back, so the original plan seems to be still on the table. But Maul fails and Padme gets to Corscant and so Palpatine has to adapt and alters his plan. This works and Valorum is out and he is confident he will be chancellor. Again, I can roll with it.
    Then Padme decides to go back and now it becomes a bit more iffy.
    Palpatine has gotten what he wanted so the treaty is of no value to him now.
    So he could, as he did in a line in the script, tell the TF that Padme is of no further use so kill her.
    But then the question is why did the TF remove the blockade? If Padme is to be killed then Palpatine could tell them to have all ships on alert and have fighters out and when Padme's ship shows up, blow it out of the sky.
    For that matter, why is Maul there? The TF have enough ships to destroy just one cruiser so why send a sith for that?

    If he still wants Padme to sign the treaty then the question is why, he does not need it. Just to please the TF?
    Once Palpatine is chancellor, he has to "deal" with the TF takeover of Naboo somehow. If he leaves them in charge of Naboo then he looks as weak and ineffective as Valorum. I would think, that had Padme not gone back, then once Palpatine was chancellor, he would make some sort of "deal" with the TF that end with them leaving Naboo. So he can show that as him being strong and capable. But under the table, the TF get enough to make it worth their while.
    And again, if he wants Padme captured and made to sign a treaty, which he knows she will not sign. So again, why remove the blockade? Have it there and on alert and once Padme shows up, force her ship to land on one of their ships and take her prisoner.

    About AotC,
    Here it is much harder to see what Palpatine's plan was originally. I think that he planned for Padme to die, the army bill to pass, the clones would not be found, the TF would join the seps, Dooku would make a threat, the clone army is "found", the senate panics and war starts. This is stuff that he can in some ways control.
    If instead Palpatine planned for the attempt on Padme to fail, Jango was ordered to use the dart, Obi-Wan would find Kamino despite all info being removed, Jango would lead Obi-Wan to Geonosis, he would send a signal and all that.
    That makes no sense as a plan and relies on Palpatine basically having read the script. It has far too many things that are random and he can't control. And a clever man like Palpatine would not go for such an uncertain plan, full of random variables if he did not have to.

    So here I think he again adapted. Once the attempts on Padme had failed, he ordered her off planet so she would interfere with the army vote. Once the army was found and Obi-Wan reported on Dooku and the seps, he had to act fast. So he manipulates Jar Jar, gets the senate to vote him extra powers. Why is a big question, if the senate were in favor to approve the clone army, why circumvent itself?
    Then the war starts. It could easily have ended badly for him. If Dooku was captured or killed on Geonosis, the seps could have fallen apart and the war ends before it gains any momentum.

    In RotS, again his plan at the start makes little sense. He somehow thinks that he can sit in the middle of a huge battle for hours or days, while Anakin come back. That Anakin will reach the ship alive and now he can pit Anakin vs Dooku. If Anakin had lost, if he had been killed before reaching the ship, what then? How could he get back? Would Dooku just let him go?
    And the plan makes even less sense for Dooku. If he wins over Anakin, nothing changes, if he looses then he is very trusting to think that Palpatine would spare him. Plus Dooku knows of the rule of two. So what did he think would happen?
    Did he think that Anakin would turn right when he killed Dooku? Quite possible and when Anakin somehow did not, Palpatine again had to adapt. So he spinns moon-beams for Anakin about this "stop death spell." And Anakin just buys it.
    When he reveals who he is, either he thought Anakin would join him right there. If so, do Order 66 and create the Empire.
    If Anakin attacks him, then Palpatine probably figured that he was strong enough to handle Anakin.
    If Anakin leaves, then he figures the Jedi would act. If they act rashly, then he is confident he can kill them. If they are less rash and use their brains and contacts each other and tries to make a plan. Do Order 66 anyway and deal with the situation then.
    It does not help that how Anakin turned was changed after filming and some scenes were reshot. But not all of them and so we have scenes with an Anakin that turned for various reasons, distrust of the Jedi, that Palpatine's empire is a better idea and so on. Padme is part of it but a smaller part. And scenes with an Anakin that turned just because Padme and nothing else.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
    VENGEANCE2022 and AusStig like this.
  5. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    May 19, 2020
    I never even thought of the fact that Palpatine would technically not even be a senator anymore once that treaty was signed. I bet he didn't either because that's a pretty big hurdle... trying to become Chancellor when you're not even an active politician anymore.

    My main thing about TPM is... the senatorial events we see in the movie don't even make any sense. The last we see of the senate; they're impeaching Valorum because of things unrelated to the Naboo conflict (general corruption) and their last decision before that is sending someone to Naboo to find out if what Padme is saying is even true or not. So... the senate doesn't even believe Padme about Naboo yet.

    How does that lead to Palpatine getting a sympathy vote? I understand it happens, but a lot of things happen in TPM for seemingly no apparent reason. I said the following in the Anakin thread...

    Palpatine ends up getting elected BEFORE the senate ever found out whether the invasion was actually happening or not. So why would the senate have sympathy for something they don't believe is happening in the first place?
  6. ThisIsTheWay

    ThisIsTheWay Jedi Knight star 2

    Nov 24, 2019
    Another interpretation:

    Whether or not the senate believes the Naboo situation is ultimately irrelevant. What truly matters is that Padme gave them opportunity to get what they wanted (Valorum gone) without any of the risk associated with innating the vote incase the vote failed.
  7. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    May 19, 2020
    It's irrelevant to ousting Valorum, but it's incredibly relevant to electing Palpatine.

    If the movie tells me that the senate is chomping at the bit to get rid of Valorum because of corruption charges, then fine. It's incredibly contrived from a writing standpoint that this information is just being dropped in our laps right before it's necessary and has nothing to do with the narrative thrust of the film, but it at least makes simplistic and logical sense.

    But Palpatine getting elected is based off a sympathy vote concerning Naboo. If the senate thinks that Padme is lying about the Naboo situation then why would the Naboo situation also invoke sympathy? Again, if I think someone is lying about having their bike stolen then why would I also go out and get them a new bike out of sympathy if I'm still under the assumption they still have their original?
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
    VENGEANCE2022 likes this.
  8. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Yeah, bit odd.

    Well if I am kind, Padme is telling the senate what is happening and she is not allowed to finish talking.
    And if there are some senators that actually believe her, which could have been made clearer, then they see Valorum react to the TF declaring war on the Republic and invading a republic world with "Send a committee to see if this has actually happened."
    If I was such a senator, I would want Valorum gone too for being an idiot.

    The TF has an army and per AotC, the Republic does not. So if any senator believed Padme then what she is saying is very grave. The TF has attacked a Republic world without warning or provocation.
    It is even harder to see why Valorum acts the way he does. He KNOWS what is going on. And yet he is spineless.

    The Naboo situation could have been used as a reason for the army bill in AotC. The Republic have no soldiers and when private armies, like the TF, think they can do what they want, then the need for the Republic to arm itself becomes clear. But sadly that is not brought up.

    I also think that Naboo would have made sense to be part of the seps. Consider, their planet was blockaded and the senate did nothing. Their world was attacked and conquered and the senate did nothing.
    If I was from Naboo, I would wonder why they should be a part of a republic that clearly does not give a fig about them.

    Again, if I am kind, the blockade was known so that could have done a little. However if it gave rise to any sympathy it was not enough to get the senate to do anything about it. But if there are some senators that think the invasion did happen then they could feel some more sympathy for Palpatine.
    But really I think sympathy is not why he gets elected, he already controls enough senators to get what he wants. That is just a cover story for Padme.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  9. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    May 19, 2020
    My issue with this is that Valorum getting removed from office has very little to do with the Naboo situation. So, the amount of people who believe and don't believe Padme about the Naboo invasion isn't going to suddenly change in her favor just because Valorum is gone now. So again, where is this sympathy vote coming from?

    I guess I look at it this way. If Palpatine already has enough pull to get elected Chancellor and all he needs is Valorum ousted... then why set up the Naboo situation in the first place? We see in the film that the senate is ready to cast a vote based off of any minor infraction. So, based off the film, I am going to assume that Palpatin's plan always involved him getting the vote based off of sympathy over the Naboo situation.

    He's not consistently written. He's supposedly a coward yet he also has enough of a spine to circumvent the senate and tackle the blockade head on with two Jedi.

    Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place. Either join the Republic who apparently doesn't really care about you OR join the Separatists which involves the TF who previously tried to invade your planet.
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
    Samuel Vimes likes this.
  10. lord_sidious_

    lord_sidious_ Jedi Knight star 3

    Feb 19, 2019
    If Padme signed the treaty, I think Naboo would fall under TF control, but it wouldn't cease to exist. Padme would still be the queen in name, but just no real power. So there would still be a senator.

    The senate isn't one person, there's a lot of variety within it. I think some of the senators do believe Padme and felt bad for her/Naboo, but they are too afraid to directly speak up against the TF. What they can do is vote for the Naboo senator once the election has already been called. Either that or what Vimes suggested about the sympathy thing being a cover up for Padme.

    I think the seps had enough battle droids that they could have easily retreated properly. The other sep leaders all got away well before the Jedi caught up to them, and the Geonosians were able to hide in the catacombs. They weren't running or scrambling. The only reason why Dooku stayed around longer was because he wanted to test his new powers on the Jedi to see how good he is now. But he had his shuttle ready and pilot droid in place before the duels so that he can escape quickly if need be.
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
    gezvader28 likes this.
  11. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    May 19, 2020
    Wouldn't the TF senators (remember, in this universe corporations have representation) be the senators of Naboo once the treaty is signed?

    But if there already aren't enough senators who believe her BEFORE Valorum is ousted... where would the extra senators come from to feel sympathy and vote for Palpatine?

    Since Valorum's impeachment has borderline nothing to do with the main narrative and instead has to do with accusations of corruption (that are conventionally never brought up before they reach Coruscant, nor after they depart) then how does any of this lead to a sympathy vote? The movie never tells us. We're just left trying to come up with our reasons as to why events are playing out on screen.

    This brings us back to having the write this movie for GL. It seems the info we're given in the film doesn't lead to the outcome that the characters state will happen and now we're forced to come up with our own rational for what we're seeing on screen. Isn't that the writers job?
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
    VENGEANCE2022 likes this.
  12. ThisIsTheWay

    ThisIsTheWay Jedi Knight star 2

    Nov 24, 2019
    Depends on the terms of the treaty. Naboo could be forced to join the TF or it could simply be about legitimatizing the occupation to prevent Republic intervention.

    As for the palpatine issue, I think the real problem is not knowing his standing within the Senate. Had it been established that Palpatine was a popular senator with lots of political pull than the sequence of events that leads to him getting elected makes much more sense.
  13. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    May 19, 2004
    You guys are complicating the basic plan of the Sith.

    The plan is to destroy the Jedi and conquer the galaxy.

    The problem is that there are hundreds of Jedi vs only 2 Sith.

    While Palpatine has become the premier Dark Lord, he and his apprentice can’t take out HUNDREDS OF JEDI by themselves.

    Step one, they need an Army. To do that, he has to become Chancellor where he’s already infiltrated politics as a Senator.

    People always forget how Palpatine’s clairvoyance is second to none in the movies. That is why he’s so Overconfident in ROTJ that lead to his downfall.

    It’s easy for him to foresee and deduced how he can manipulate the Invasion of Naboo to become Chancellor. Wether Naboo wins or Trade Federation wins…it will lead to Palpatine becoming Chancellor.

    THE ONLY THING that he didn’t expect and that could threaten his plans was the ARRIVAL OF Anakin..The Chosen One.

    I know some might even say…that the Creation of Anakin was also manipulated by Palpatine…that I don’t think so…because that is actually too vague in the movies for that to be true.

    I believe The Force created Anakin to counter the power of Sidious…..but Palpatine instead turned that into his advantage.

    Anyways, as Chancellor he easily got an Army by getting EMERGENCY POWERS through pairing Obi-Wan and Padme which lead to Padme out of Planet to vote and Obi-Wan finding out a Clone Army at the same time finding out the Separatists are ready for war coincidentally.

    Then finally he just thinned the herd of the Jedi by creating a war he is BOTH THE LEADER OF. If Separatists win..then Sidious becomes Emperor and IF the Republic wins…Palpatine becomes Emperor. He wins either way.

    Since the Clones are already embedded with the Jedi…it’ll be much an easier kill from them instead from the Droid Army.

    As for the Dooku vs Anakin….If Dooku wins then Anakin didn’t deserve to be the Sith in the first place and perhaps he was wrong about The Chosen One being a threat to him. If that would have happened then he could have easily twisted it where he and Dooku would still rule the galaxy while their war keeps depleting the Jedi ranks BUT I think Palpatine has already foreseen Anakin will beat Dooku. There’s a reason why Vader in the OT, FEARS the Emperor like that and Palpatine’s clairvoyance is on top of Vader’s fear list.

    Now the only 2 problems left for Palpatine is
    1. To make His ONLY THREAT ANAKIN to see his side.
    2. To have a VALID REASON to the Senate on why he had to destroy the whole Jedi and why they have to become an Empire.
    oierem, AusStig and Iron_lord like this.
  14. lord_sidious_

    lord_sidious_ Jedi Knight star 3

    Feb 19, 2019
    I think he did want the treaty signed, though the purpose is unclear. He could have just laid back and watch the TF fight the Naboo side if the outcome didn't matter. But he didn't, he actually risked Maul's life for it.
  15. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    May 19, 2004
    Yeah I think he wants that Treaty so he can have his own power base and droid army at his disposal. Losing Maul was bad BUT what Anakin did to the droid army was even worse.

    Anakin LITERALLY won that battle for Naboo. Which opened Palpatine’s eyes on who this kid is.

    So I think what Palpatine wanted in Episode 1 was to be Chancellor along with that power base of the TF Droid Army but he had to switch his plans on getting a new apprentice and a new army.
  16. lord_sidious_

    lord_sidious_ Jedi Knight star 3

    Feb 19, 2019
    Personally, I think Maul is more important than the TF though. There will always be greedy cowards he can make use of. In any case, both were obviously losses for Sidious. The only good thing that happened for him in TPM is becoming Chancellor, while pretty much everything else was a disaster.
  17. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    To me, the big issue is that the "politics" is given very little development in TPM. The only senator we get any sense of is Palpatine and since he is Sidious, what he says is questionable. The rest are just a mass of people that we know little about. We see only two others, the TF guy and the one who supports him then we hear about a some others that are in the running for chancellor.
    So TPM does not have a "political" story as such but it has some politicians in it. Most of whom are very basic with little depth or motivation.

    Are there really any corruption charges around Valorum? Palpatine says so but again, he is not to be trusted.

    The only thing we know is that the senate has been unable to do anything about the blockade. They will not give in to the TF wishes about the trade tax and they are also unable to get the TF to stop.

    So what we get is Padme not getting to finish talking and Valorum being unable to do anything.
    So he looks weak and ineffective. And he had not been able to ge the senate to act before either.
    He did send the Jedi, so he himself is capable of acting. But that wasn't know.

    I have said before that the sending of the Jedi should have been a thing to bring back. Padme could ask that they be called as witnesses, if the sending of the Jedi was so super illegal as some claim, make that the reason why Valorum is in trouble. That he has over-stepped his authority and now he is afraid to act.

    To me, the senate mostly comes off as a bunch of people that will do anything Palaptine tells them to.
    Again because it is not given enough development.
    So Palpatine could have called for the vote against Valorum at the start of TPM and become chancellor.
    Why he didn't? If he had then there would be no movie.

    100% agree, the Valorum that sent the Jedi and the Valorum we see are very different. The former was tired of the red-tape and nonsense of the senate and took action to end this mess. The latter is a spineless jellyfish.
    But again, characters do what they do because the plot tells them to.

    I think it could have made more sense if the seps had all been smaller systems like Naboo while the big companies, like the TF, stay with the Republic. Consider, the TF and possibly other big companies, have the senate in their pocket. They have bribed senators to make it easy for them to act as they like. They control the system.
    Meanwhile, the smaller systems look at the senate as corrupt and under the thumb of big business.

    So they want to break free and since the TF and co are the ones with armies, the seps are the ones who make clone armies, in case the Republic tries to make them stay by force.
    Dooku could then be a former Jedi, one who has long argued against the corruption in the senate and that the Jedi should not serve such a corrupt body. And finally he left.
    This way, the seps can be seen to have a case, that their grievance is legit. They could be seen as decent people and not the obvious bad guys AotC has them be.

    Why? The TF person in the senate is there as a rep for the TF, not the people or the system. Nemodians I think.
    So if Naboo would be absorbed and made part of the TF, their senate seat would go away. They would no longer be an independent system. Padme could still rule Naboo but the TF speaks for them in the senate.

    Dooku is the leader and if he dies or is captured, the seps are leaderless. Nute is a coward and if the other seps are like him, then they could fold. Surrender quickly. The Republic is clearly not as weak as they thought and they have lost their leader. The Jedi seem to think this way as they want to capture/kill Dooku to stop the war from spreading.

    Why Dooku stayed? The plot said so.

    The Kamino have made armies before and as long as Palpatine can pay, they can make an army for him.
    So no need to be chancellor for that.

    Look at just the OT; what did Palpatine foresee?
    The destruction of the first DS? Where the rebel base on Yavin/Hoth were?
    The existence of Luke/Leia? Where Obi-Wan/Yoda was?
    He felt the disturbance that Luke was causing in ESB but so did Vader.
    He let the rebels know about the DS2 and had a legion of his "best" troops on Endor and the fleet nearby.
    Either the rebels will take the bait and he can destroy them. Or they stay away and the DS 2 get completed and he wins anyway, it would only take longer.
    The thing he had foreseen was that Luke would seek Vader out and that Luke had compassion for his father. And yet he did not foresee that Luke would come to Endor and he did not even sense him.

    The PT has a Palaptine whose plans only make sense if he had read the script.

    He did not manipulate the invasion, he created it. The TF only do what they in TPM because Palpatine tells them to. Same with the seps, they only do what they do because Palpatine, through Dooku, tells them to.
    He wins mostly because he is only person with any brains, the rest are quite stupid.

    Palpatine ordered Padme off-planet, Obi-Wan was not needed for that.

    And so you think that he ordered Jango to use the dart, knowing that Zam would fail twice, that the Jedi would chase after and capture her.
    He also knew that despite all info of Kamino was erased, Obi-Wan would know a guy that could ID the dart. Obi-Wan would also fail to capture Jango but would be able to follow him and Jango was ordered to go to Geonosis. And that on the whole planet, Obi-Wan would just stumble across the meeting of Dooku and the seps.
    WOW, talk about a plot that requires the villain to have read the script or his foresight is so God-like that he can predict everything that will happen, down to the smallest detail. Or just bad writing.

    Tell me, when the clone army was set in motion, about ten years prior to AotC. Do you think that Palpatine had all this mapped out? That ten years later, Nute would demand that Padme be killed, that two attempts would be made and both fail. The dart, Dex, and all that? If not, did he have no plan for the clones to become "known" or did he have some other plan?

    I think Palpatine's plan instead was for Padme to die as Nute had demanded that and she held up the army bill, which would then pass. Obi-Wan or the Jedi would not know anything about Kamino, Jango, Dooku etc.
    The Kamino would instead contact the republic when the clone army was totally ready, remember, only about 200 000 unite were ready, a million more were not quite done.
    Palpatine could then tell the senate that he had been contacted by the Kamino and apparently a Jedi ordered a clone army. That could make the senators be a bit vary about the Jedi since they went behind their backs. And the Jedi would not know about Jango/Dooku/Tyrannus nor about the date mismatch with Sifo-Dyas death.
    Dooku would then finish getting the seps together and with Nute onboard, that would be fairly easy.
    Then he either attacks a republic world or makes a big public threat. The senate panics and war starts.
    Simpler and has far less random variables that Palpatine can not control.

    Since the republic has no army other than the Jedi.
    If Palpatine orders a clone army and also creates the seps with their droid army and then attacks the Republic with both, he wins quickly. The Jedi will get overwhelmed and he is ruler.

    Why Dader fears Palpatine is that one zap from Palpatine will mess up his suit and Vader is dead.

    So would Dooku leave Coruscant with Palpatine as hostage? If the ship could leave, why have they not yet done so? If they can not leave because they are boxed in, what then?

    If the ship is shot at and destroyed, then both Palpatine and Dooku are dead and the Force is balanced by a humble clone trooper.

    If all Palpatine wanted is to pit Dooku vs Anakin, there are many ways to set that up with far less risk to himself. Call Anakin back to Coruscant and have a meeting with him, then have Dooku and the seps attack and Dooku is the one who rushed into Palpatine's office, looking to kill or capture him. They fight, if Anakin looses, then far easier to spinn a tale that Palpatine got away while Anakin bravely held off Dooku. If Anakin wins, all good and less risk to Palpatine.

    Palaptine does not need Anakin so he could simply kill him. Send him on a mission somewhere and plant a bomb on his ship and boom, Anakin dead.
    As for the senate, since they seem to accept anything Palpatine tells them, he could just say "The Jedi are bad guys and make me emperor" and they would agree.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022
    FightoftheForgotten likes this.
  18. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    May 19, 2004
    @Samuel Vimes

    Is Palpatine the richest man that he could have easily buy an Army??? To be Chancellor gives him the Senate Funds to buy that kind of army.

    And if the Senate will easily buy his lies….Then he could have easily started Order 66 the moment he got his Clone Army in Episode 2.

    And you always underestimate Anakin’s importance to Palpatine. He needs to TURN Him just like he needs to TURN Luke in the OT. The Skywalkers as a Jedi is a threat to him Destiny wise. As his apprentices, he will be nearly unstoppable.

    It’s really just those “movie destiny rule”.

    “You can destroy the Emperor!! He has FORESEEN THIS!”


    “You were supposed to DESTROY the Sith NOT join them!”

    “The Force is strong with him, he could DESTROY us.”

    “The son of Skywalker MUST NOT BECOME A JEDI.”

    Never once those lines ever mentioned about Yoda, Obi-Wan or any other Jedi. It’s just the Skywalker Destiny.

    Just like in Transformers The Movie 1986…even though Galvatron can beat Hot Rod…it was Hot Rod that was DESTINED TO open the Matrix that can DESTROY the most powerful villain in Unicron.
  19. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    We don't know how rich Palpatine is or how much money the Sith have put away, but it is possible. They have been hiding and biding their time for 1000 years.
    From what I've heard, Dooku is rich.
    Also, per TPM, Palpatine is working with the TF and they are rich. So they could afford it.
    And the clone army is not really needed, if the seps have the droid army and the Republic has just the Jedi, they will loose and quickly. So all Palpatine needs is the seps and their droid army as long as the Republic has no army.

    He could, but if he did, then there would be no Ep III so he had to wait.

    He does not NEED Anakin nor Luke, none of his plans require him to turn either one of them. They are a threat so kill them, that would solve the problem. Which is what Palpatine tried to do once Luke refused to turn. With all Jedi dead and Luke and Anakin as well, who could stop Palpatine?

    Again, killing Anakin would do that.
    If he killed Anakin shortly after TPM, then Luke would never have been born and Anakin is dead.
    Now Palpatine is unbeatable, simple. But if he had, again there would be no films.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  20. Sidious69

    Sidious69 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    May 19, 2004
    Also being the Chancellor gives him influence to the whole Senate. It’s 2 steps behind Chancellor with Emergency Powers and then Emperor. So being Chancellor is a must in taking over the Galaxy.

    Again, Palpatine COULD NOT beat hundreds of Jedi Knights by himself.

    He needs an Army and a powerful apprentice. And the most powerful apprentice out there is The Chosen One himself.
  21. lord_sidious_

    lord_sidious_ Jedi Knight star 3

    Feb 19, 2019
    I agree on this one. 1000 years is a long time, they must have been doing something.

    Sidious isn't immortal. He will die eventually. If any Jedi survivors manage to train a powerful successor but he doesn't, then that could be the end for the Sith Order.
    Iron_lord and Watcherwithin like this.
  22. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    May 19, 2020
    We didn't complicate anything. GL complicated this from 1980 onward.

    Or flat-out contradictory in the case of Valorum.

    Having the reason Valorum gets ousted not having anything to do with the plot doesn't do TPM any favors.

    If nothing we're told has any basis in what is supposed to be going on AND we never get a reveal to what was supposed to be actually going on, then I have to say that the writer did not do his job. I shouldn't have to come up with political plot for three films.

    This is the crux of the issue and goes back to what @Sidious69 stated about overcomplicating everything... Palpatine (just before the events of AOTC) has access to two massive armies. Palpatine could, theoretically, have Dooku rile up the separatist leaders, have them amass a huge droid army and then also present the separatist leaders with the clone army from Kamino. Then the Separatists could attack the Republic with two massive armies while the Republic only has Jedi and planetary defense forces like the one on Naboo.

    The reason this doesn't happen is because Palpatine is determined to take over the Republic from the inside. Why? We're never told.

    But being a secret Sith Lord, while also being an elected official within the Republic, who is slowly eroding away at the bedrock of democracy is far more convoluted than just amassing a horde of bad guys and attacking the Republic (that would be grossly underprepared for such an onslaught) head on.

    WE are not making this convoluted. GL did that back in 1980 once he decided in TESB that Palpatine wouldn't just be Nixon, but in fact an evil space wizard.
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2022
  23. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Mar 22, 2003
    ok , then what happens ?
    Naboo was just one planet , there's millions of planets in the Republic, how many billions of people is that?

    And where's Palpatine in all this ?
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2022
  24. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Except by your own argument;
    Then a seps victory would lead to Sidious becoming emperor.
    So there is no MUST in becoming chancellor as you argue that a seps victory would also work.
    Ergo, if the seps had the droids and the Republic had just the Jedi, the seps will win in short order and Sidious becomes emperor more quickly.
    So why not do this?

    With Dooku and the droid army, he has that. A powerful apprentice and an army that will crush the Jedi, as AotC showed.
    So Sidious could just have built up the seps and their droid army, attack the Republic, crush the Jedi and conquer the Republic and rule it.

    As for Anakin, you again argue;
    So since Anakin is the ONLY THREAT, then kill him.
    Now there is no longer a threat, now there is no longer anyone that can destroy the Sith.
    So by killing the chosen one, the Sith are now indestructible, they can not be taken out by anyone.
    Sidious/the Sith no longer need to worry about the chosen one or any child the chose one could have.

    SkyNet did not try to get John Connor to work for him in T1 or T2, it just wanted him dead.
    Queen Bavmorda did not try to get Elora Danan on her side, she just wanted to banish her forever.
    For a villain to go "This person is the only one who can destroy me but is right now a weak child and I could kill them and rid myself of an enemy. But I will not do that, I will let them grow up and become stronger and keep them close to me, leaving myself open to an attack." That is not smart.

    Who said he would not train a successor? If he kills Anakin right after TPM then he can have Dooku.
    Once he wipes out the Jedi Order, he can capture the really young Jedi to be and look for someone suitable from that lot. Sidious, the ruler of the galaxy has a lot more options than some Jedi that are in hiding.
    If Anakin or Luke are the only ones that can kill him/the sith, then if they are no more, then there is no one that can kill him/the sith. Why would that be a bad thing for Sidious?

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  25. FightoftheForgotten

    FightoftheForgotten Jedi Grand Master star 4

    May 19, 2020
    The Seps win and the Republic loses.

    Well, according to AOTC's own logic, the planetary defense forces along with the Jedi aren't even enough to fight the droid army. So if Palpatine was to combine the droids and clones into one single army, the Republic wouldn't be able to fight that either.

    A Sith apprentice would be leading the Seps and Palpatine would be guiding him from the shadows.
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2022