Plot hole in the saga?

Good. Now that you've done so, the rest of us can get back to the discussion at hand.

No need to take that tone with me. But since you want discuss a pointless topic, well by all means go ahead....

 

....Padme, herself, is not aware of this "portrayal". From her POV, she is doing everything she can despite what the "dying Republic" that she "embodies" throws at her. Where the Republic fails to act (or the Jedi take too long), she jumps headlong into (my edit: provided she can do it within the law, as she is acting as a civil servant, after all). Her actions, in and of themselves, are not "ineffectual", in her POV. It is the results of her efforts that are made "ineffectual" by Palpatine's plans.

I could not have said it better myself (sans edit). Thanks.

 

"But since you want discuss a pointless topic, well by all means go ahead...."

[Yoda] "Revealed, your opinion is" [/Yoda]

More pointless comments in a "pointless topic." I love it.

"(my edit: provided she can do it within the law, as she is acting as a civil servant, after all)"

Whatever.

" I could not have said it better myself "

That goes without saying, and yet you still miss the point.

 

I really should start keeping a Spreadsheet of your rude snipes, MebeJedi, but I feel I'd run out of Hard drive space. I'm down to my last 10 Gigs.

*INSERT MOCKING USE OF SMILEY HERE*

Mods, can we get a lock on this topic? It seems to be going no where.

UKS

 

Well, I'm not going to lock this topic just now.

But I am going to say that the posting in here has gotten snippy, and away from what I consider to be high quality.

The posting is also well off topic.

So I'm going to say that I dont want to see anyone posting any more about Shmi or slavery or any of that stuff. Thats a TPM issue, and has no relevance to the thread topic. I tried to let you guys discuss maturely, and let the conversation drift, but alas, that wasnt successful.

So...I'll refresh you as to the topic as it was in the opening post:

In ESB, it was said by obiwan himself that luke should go to "yoda, the jedi master who instructed me." But Yoda did NOT instruct obi... it was Qui-Jon. Is this a plot hole by lucas in the PT? And there is no possible way lucas can make it right in E3, so there it is. Also, in ANH obiwan told luke that he took it upon himself to train anakin... but if you all remember he was against training anakin up until the death of qui-jon. It was actually qui-jon who took it upon himself to train young anakin, but obviously died and obiwan trained anakin. Now it really doesn't do much to really affect star wars as a whole, but these are plot holes in my opinion. does anyone else see this?

Now, discuss. Keep strictly on topic. Keep a high level of mature discussion. If you cant do that, stay out of the thread. I'm going near zero tolerance in here.

Got it?

 

Hopefully, this will help put it back on topic. Obi-wan training Anakin isn't a plot hole because Lucas covered all the angles. Anakin was a great pilot when Obi-wan met him (he never says "space pilot", though Anakin proved that as well in short order.) Obi-wan did take it upon himself to train Anakin (what was he going to tell Qui-gon...."No"? )

One thing that I would consider a plot hole is when Obi-wan says (I believe) "He was my greatest student, and my greatest failure." Obi-wan was never in a position to train any Jedi as an apprentice - at least, not in an official or formal function (maybe he was a student-teacher).

"He was betrayed and murdered," Kenobi declared solemnly, "by a very young Jedi named Darth Vader." He was not looking at Luke. "A boy I was training. One of my brightest disciples?one of my greatest failures." - ANH novelization

Okay, my bad. I just checked, and this isn't in the film. That being said, it is the best proof that Ben's "master" was not to play such a key part in the PT, since Obi-wan would have trained several Jedi by the time he met Anakin. This would have been more poignant, though, that a successful teacher is given the responsibility of training a padawan with the greatest potential, rather than giving an overage and troubled padawan with the highest recorded midichlorian count to a green Jedi Knight.

 

"it is the best proof that Ben's "master" was not to play such a key part in the PT,"

In the original drafts of TPM made in the mid nineties, Obi-Wan was the Qui Gon character (in all the scenes up to Coruscant) when the original QG character was introduced.

Since all Lucas had from that time was a vague backstory, we cannot say he has altered the original plot, but I agree some of the intent meant in scenes in 1977-83, has now altered in 2003.

It took a bit of a retrofit and some fiddling and exposition to make it all work, but it does fit.

UKS

 

I'm not sure anyone has though of this but...say the Archival Editions do happen. Lucas could quite easily change "The Jedi Master who taught me" (not exact quote) to "A Jedi Master" or something similar. He'd only have to find a recording of Alec Guiness saying "A" and paste that onto that part there...

 

Thus giving me one more reason not to buy them.

God bless my LD's.

 

"Since all Lucas had from that time was a vague backstory, we cannot say he has altered the original plot, but I agree some of the intent meant in scenes in 1977-83, has now altered in 2003."

That's the problem. Lucas should have written out the EXACT details to the PT when he was making the OT keeping the SW mentality in mind with he flow and enegy he had to boot.

 

>>>>That being said, it is the best proof that Ben's "master" was not to play such a key part in the PT, since Obi-wan would have trained several Jedi by the time he met Anakin. This would have been more poignant, though, that a successful teacher is given the responsibility of training a padawan with the greatest potential, rather than giving an overage and troubled padawan with the highest recorded midichlorian count to a green Jedi Knight.

You have to bear in mind that when that was written, Obi Wan had trained at least 2 Jedi Knights- Darth Vader and Luke's father. They weren't intended to be the same character until after the film had been completed- early drafts of ESB even include Luke and the ghost of his father having conversations.


>>>That's the problem. Lucas should have written out the EXACT details to the PT when he was making the OT keeping the SW mentality in mind with he flow and enegy he had to boot

The "flow and energy" weren't devoted to setting things in stone though. He was clearly making up the OT as he went along;

Well, in 1977 Vader wasn't Luke's father, and Star Wars was one film.
In 1980, Luke wasn't Leia's sister, and Star Wars was a 12- episode saga or a 9 episode saga (depending on who you spoke to and when you spoke to them.)
In 1983, Owen was Obi Wan's brother and Star Wars was a six episode saga.

Seems that Lucas hadn't even got the broader elements of the OT in order until he'd finished it; to expect the same guy to have the PT set in stone at the time would be frankly ludicrous.


Oh, and to address the original post;

>>>In ESB, it was said by obiwan himself that luke should go to "yoda, the jedi master who instructed me." But Yoda did NOT instruct obi... it was Qui-Jon. Is this a plot hole by lucas in the PT?

No- both Jedi instructed Obi Wan.

>>>Also, in ANH obiwan told luke that he took it upon himself to train anakin... but if you all remember he was against training anakin up until the death of qui-jon. It was actually qui-jon who took it upon himself to train young anakin, but obviously died and obiwan trained anakin.

Or to put it another way, Qui Gon decided that Anakin had to be trained. When nobody else woudl do it, he said he'd do it himself- which he couldn't actually do until Obi Wan had "graduated. Then Qui Gon died, and Obi Wan took Anakins training on himself.

I don't see a plot hole.

 

But, obviously Yoda was much less Kenobi's teacher than Qui-Gon. Much like when a job application asks you where you got you're education, they expect a college or at least a high school--not the pre-school that you went to.

But since ESB already established Ben as a notorious liar, its just reinforcing an existing aspect of the guy's character. So no, plot hole. But yes, the statement is false.

 

"they expect a college or at least a high school--not the pre-school that you went to."

Excellent point!

[image=http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0345466179.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg] Maybe this is how Jedi are taught.

 

>>>But, obviously Yoda was much less Kenobi's teacher than Qui-Gon. Much like when a job application asks you where you got you're education, they expect a college or at least a high school--not the pre-school that you went to.

But since ESB already established Ben as a notorious liar, its just reinforcing an existing aspect of the guy's character. So no, plot hole. But yes, the statement is false.

So by that logic, if I say that my junior school teacher taught me music, I would actually be lying because other people taught me music since then? Because she became "less" my teacher once the subsequent ones had taught me?

Of course not. The statement is true, as he doesn't say that Yoda was his only teacher.

If you prefer to think that Obi Wan wasn't instructed by Yoda anymore, then that's fine. It's just simply not the story that's told by the films.

Look at the context of the sentence in ESB. Is Obi Wan;

a) Choosing this moment to appear to Luke from beyond the grave so he can dictate his autobiography to him?

b) Telling him he has to go to Dagobah and find Yoda, and explaining why Yoda is so special that he should drop everything to look for him?

 

My logic was that he was much less Kenobi's teacher because he got taught much less. Just as anyone with a degree of any kind learned more about their field in the terminal portions of their education than they did when they first entered schooling.

So for someone to say they learned msuci in high school is fine. But if they play in the New York Symphony, one would bet there are teachers who taught him a lot more than his middle school music teacher.

 

So, Jabby....

How would you then have had Obi Wan address Luke out on the frozen wasteland of Hoth?

Thanks.

 

never mind.

 

New Thought RE: Yoda.. The Jedi Master.. who instructed me

I posted this elsewhere, but it is better suited here. Anyway take a look. (Granted the whole CPOV thing is required, but at least it works as opposed to arguing the other theories, etc.)

Hello All.

Ever since TPM, I've had a problem with Ben's TESB line:

"Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me"

My reason for this is that although Yoda may have instructed OB1 as a child, he was not THE Jedi Master who instructed him. He was A Jedi Master who instructed him or ONE OF the Jedi Masters who instructed him.

After a recent viewing of TESB, however, I noticed something I hadn't before. The complete line that Ben says to Luke is as follows:

"You will go to the Dagobah System. There, you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master, who instructed me"

So now I see an interpretation I hadn't before, that would allow this line to be valid. That is, on Dagobah, there is Yoda, who is a Jedi Master. As in Yoda, the Jedi Master who is on Dagobah. Then Ben simply mentions that Yoda instructed him. So I guess my interpretation would be this:

Yoda, the Jedi Master on Dagobah, who instructed him. After watching the film recently with this view, I really think it works. Notice where the emphasis is placed. It appears to be put on "Yoda" and "who instructed me". He's just noting that Yoda who is on Dagobah is a Jedi Master.

Thoughts?

-DL

 

"How would you then have had Obi Wan address Luke out on the frozen wasteland of Hoth?"

Uhm, it could have been brought up later in the film, not to mention the later ROTJ.

Of course, the fact that it wasn't is its own proof, so you're welcome.

 

it could have been brought up later in the film

I'm confused. What is "it"?

 

Here a P.H. I found,In Episode II, why did Zam Wesell aim for the robot rather than Obi-Wan during the chase on Coruscant?

Anyone can clearly see that Obi-Wan is the bigger target anyway, therefore he should've been shot right there.

And a real smart person would say, "Maybe Zam missed!" If she missed, I doubt the shot would go stray and ACCURATELY hit something right above her main target. I also highly doubt you could miss such a big target out in the open.

Even if she meant to aim for the robot, it would still have been rather stupid. Why let someone live when you can kill them right there and then?

 

That's not a plot hole, Queen Leia.

Learn the definition of a plot hole.

She shot at the robot probably because she wanted to see him fall. Who knows.

That's not a plot hole.

Again, learn what a plot hole means.

 

Here's an example of a plot hole;

How does Luke know who Darth Vader is?

He gets told about Darth Vader by Obi Wan, but there's nothing to connect Obi Wan's story with the man in black who kills him. Then in ESB, Luke's having visions of Vader, and knows who he is when they meet.

Here's another;
How does Darth Vader know who Luke is?

He never meets him in ANH, never has any cause to even hear his name- then in the opening crawl of ESB, he's "obsessed with finding young Skywalker."

And another;
How does Darth Vader know that Obi Wan trained Luke?

And another;
Where did Luke learn telekenesis from?


And just for the sake of being balanced, here's one from the PT;
How did R2D2 and C3P0 get off Geonosis?

 

How does Luke know who Darth Vader is?

He gets told about Darth Vader by Obi Wan, but there's nothing to connect Obi Wan's story with the man in black who kills him. Then in ESB, Luke's having visions of Vader, and knows who he is when they meet.

he puts 2 & 2 together, in between the movies Leia or other people could have easily told him stories about Vader

Here's another;
How does Darth Vader know who Luke is?

He never meets him in ANH, never has any cause to even hear his name- then in the opening crawl of ESB, he's "obsessed with finding young Skywalker."

Luke blew up the freakin Death Star, if that doesnt make him infamous then what does ?, plus he feels him in the force

And another;
How does Darth Vader know that Obi Wan trained Luke?

he sees/hears Luke on the death star, puts 2 & 2 together


How did R2D2 and C3P0 get off Geonosis?

they could've easily been picked up just like in ROTJ

 

Where did Luke learn telekenesis from?

He probably got introduced to it by Obi-Wan between scenes in ANH. Then he trained himself for 3 years.
Or he met Obi-Wan´s ghost between ANH and TESB and recieved some sort of training/information.