Speculation Post-TROS state of the galaxy (Newer Republic? Multiple regional powers? Other?)

I'm quite unclear at this point what your position is. The first quote you seem to be saying that the backdrop of the state of the galaxy should be wholly irrelevant to the story being told. In the second you seem to be saying that the state of the galaxy is important but should be conveyed efficiently rather than distracting from the story to give a history lesson. I think we almost all agree with the second point, but the first is at the heart of this thread. If the state of the galaxy should inform the story (I say it should), then you should care what the state of the galaxy is - even if you want said state to be conveyed subtly (I do as well).

 

We are in agreement that the OT is generally efficient with it's world building. However, I'm not so sure about your assessment about minimalism/bare bones.

Example: Hoth is very much bare bones and minimalist in it's presentation.. It's a snow/ice planet with snow adjacent creatures (TaunTauns and Yetis Wampas). That's it as far as the movies go. The rest of the info on Hoth comes from source guides, wiki entries, visual encyclopedias, or our imaginations. A lot of SW world building is like that. Again, this is not a knock on Star Wars...it's a key ingredient to the whole thing.

In SW (especially the OT), Lucas doesn't (generally) spend a lot of time showing the worlds, nor over explaining how they work. He gives you quick visuals and sounds and lets the audience fill in the blanks. Lucas working with his versions of archetypal imagery, environments, and characters. Why? Because Lucas, generally, likes to focus on and move the story along very quickly rather than pondering/explaining the worlds, systems, governments, etc.
@Riv_Shiel

I apologize for not being clear. I don't think the state of the galaxy is wholly irrelevant. I am just saying that it is, as you said yourself, simply backdrop. The characters and the story come first.

Yes! Exactly. I don't really care the state of the galaxy as long as it serving a great story/narrative. Empire, Republic, New Republic....it just doesn't matter to me that much.

I think the state of the galaxy should inform the story. Yet, it is mainly backdrop for the interpersonal relationships of our main characters and their stories/journey.

Again, good post TROS stories can be told with a New Republic, no Republic, a fractured Republic, a 3rd Empire striking back, and reforged Sith army, aliens attacking from another dimension, whatever. It's largely irrelevant to me what the political state/structure of the galaxy is as long as it serves to tell a good story.

 

I disagree with setting as mere backdrop, which is one of the many reasons why I dislike a lot of modern genre cinema. My favorite stories involve the small "i" interpersonal of individual characters and their intimate relationships interacting with the big "I" Interpersonal that is the broader culture/ society/ political system. Star Wars at its best (Rogue One, parts of ANH and ESB, season one of Mandalorian and Andor) hits that sweet spot between these micro and macro worlds. When a world feels like a mere stage-setting, with thinly-painted props, I tend to tune out. Because worlds are made of people, and are just as interesting as individuals.

But...that setting was a remote hideout. It should be barren. That's the world of the Rebel hidden base. And that's the setting the story called for at that time. And even then, Lucas gives us some interesting fauna to make the place seem lived in.

But when the story calls for much more intricate settings with lots of layers, Lucas gives us Tatooine in ANH, or Coruscant in the prequels.

 

It seems like for 1,000 years there was no standing army and it was up to the Jedi to keep the peace.

Then there’s the Empire.

Then under the New Republic, the government again tried to disarm itself, but this time there weren’t any Jedi (or just double digits at most) to keep the peace, so the Republic falls again.

Now presumably the Republic is bouncing back again with circumstances very similar to the post-Empire period. Still no Jedi of any significant number.

I’m wondering if the Republic will maintain a standing army this time, or if they will look to an alternative peacekeeping force (Mandalorians?)

Where the Jedi might be rebuilding, but their role might have already been filled. Where the Jedi might struggle with maintaining their relevance in the Galaxy


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Just to clarify, the New Republic did maintain a small standing military force with a defensive mandate. Doesn’t change your point though, as yes, it was woefully inadequate:

 

In the OT, none of the heroes mention wanting to restore the Republic. The only thing is in the supplemental materials, where the Rebellion's formal name as "The Alliance to Restore the Republic" is unveiled. Some opening crawls mention restoring freedom/justice in general and I think that's it (and never said in the dialogue). And through Rogue One, Andor, etc. we see that not all rebels wanted to restore the Republic, it's just Mon Mothma that won that game, for a time. And after her retirement, we read about the power struggle between the Populist and Centrist parties, with some extreme Populists wanting to abolish the Senate and really weaken any unifying government so it becomes more like an Alliance, similar to the Separatist Idealists... and some extreme Centrists, some but not all who herald or ally with the First Order, wanting such a strong unifying government and fleet that it's basically an elected benevolent Empire reborn (but with a permanent Imperial Senate). Talk of legacy is dark side, if there's any true legacy it's their stories inspiring people to hope and to stand up for what's right, and how it is possible to defeat masterminds with their powerful enforcers and superweapons and empires.

Well we read about it, in the High Republic stories so far.

As for what you say about the Mandalorians... that's basically how the Republic and the Jedi organically originally started.

Well it was no longer a golden age by the time the PT started and never ideal (even discounting how the Sith were in the shadows the whole time, choosing to not challenge the republic and instead work inside it), and as mentioned the OT was about defeating the empire not restoring the system. The prologue for the ANH novel does talk about the bureaucratic problems from the pressure of a republic trying to run the galaxy made it a problem even before the corruption, and there's a good section on the introduction to the Essential Atlas that delves into the logistics of it all really well and how that frames basically all of galactic history and politics and all the star wars.

I get that. That's what I was thinking when I wrote: "Whatever the case, If/When we get into the political side (which Andor is showing can be received well when done competently and thoughtfully), I hope any resolution with politics as a big point would lead up to the resolution not being victory in a war but diplomacy between multiple good but flawed factions leading to a Treaty, by heroes on every side and no side, which is then put to the test and upheld (despite the desires of greedy war-profiteers and their megacorporations) to show they learned the lessons of the previous 3 trilogies. A galaxy where the droids have already been (peacefully) liberated and given equal rights too. Leading us back to a galaxy at peace, as it was pre-TPM, but evolved and even better, a galaxy that won't repeat the past."

To be fair, the Galactic Republic was never truly Galactic, nor was even the Galactic Empire... even within known space and easily-reachable space. There were independent and semi-autonomous enclaves everywhere. Even within official member systems, there's a sense of federalism or at least some kind of delegation, even under Emperor Palpatine to the regional governors. The NR had more enclaves than even the OR, but that's kind of healthy... the Republic truly became the Empire when it refused to allow systems to democratically declare independence. That's the definition of little-e empire - the domination of territory, and the population within it, by force and threat of force. The NR choose not to enforce its will upon, or unfairly pressure, systems to join it is a good thing.

Lucas wasn't saying large democracies (or democracies in general) never work... but he was definitely interested in incorporating political science and history into his stories, in broad strokes and universal themes if not in detail. And as above, he was definitely saying from the beginning that large democracies have very big difficulties and challenges to overcome (from bureaucracy to corporate interests to corruption to the military-industrial complex to charismatic leaders), even if very pro-democracy overall.

Disagree. This is what the Sequel Trilogy tried, and why so many feel it got the worldbuilding and consistency and meaning/impact of its plot/themes and even some character arcs wrong or half-baked.

There's a lot of time in ANH spent on the politics and worldbuilding... the Imperial Senate, the regional governors, the why of the Death Star. And from it all, you know there's consistency and verisimilitude, even if you don't get all the details on-screen you can fill-in the gaps and it makes sense. And the OT did a great job at showing life on Tatooine, on the forest moon of Endor, even on the rebel base of Hoth and somewhat on Cloud City.

Either way, this thread is definitely for people who do care about the backdrop and the greater forces at play in a future story... but I think we all know it won't be pages and pages of exposition in any story, at least no more than it was in ANH or TPM or Rogue One.

Agree. It was inconsistent, counter-intuitive, and just messy in the ST.

That back-and-forth mentioned earlier in this post, and in this thread OP. The Populists and Centrists both made points. Evil can definitely arise from both ends. It's all about balance, and being quickly adaptive to change (where the status quo might have been in balance before, and even though that system that was in balance hasn't changed, it needs to adapt to those other changes in order to keep the balance).

The New Republic wasn't centralized and unified enough or with a strong enough leader, or have a big enough and strong enough military, to respond effectively in-time to the First Order. But if it had been, it would have been in danger of becoming the Empire again, and the First Order would have just worked to be elected like Palpatine instead of being external invaders. Likewise, if the Old Republic had just let those worlds secede and declare independence because they wanted more autonomy, there would have been little reason for the Clone Wars. But when the New Republic did let some worlds secede and declare independence because they wanted a more centralized government (if smaller) they did then affiliate with the First Order that soon invaded.

At the Essential Atlas states:

"Starve the center and you reap anarchy. Feed the center and you breed tyranny. The problem is obvious to every man. A solution has been revealed to no man." (Star Wars Essential Atlas)

The entire first section, just 5 pages, are worth a quick read. I normally wouldn't just take up space to share screenshots of text, but it's highly highly relevant to this discussion:

 

If you recall, I initially said:

Simply put: Give me a SW story with compelling heroes and villains (and those in between) and I'm good.

The issues you bring up here seem to be primarily about issues consistency in narrative and characterization. Perhaps you could elaborate on this as it relates to world building?

I disagree. There isn't a lot of screen time actually spent on this. Don't get me wrong. There is a TON of world building in ANH...clearly. Yet, it's done efficiently, quickly, and with minimal exposition. This is part of the genius of ANH. It's easily accessible, yet creates and entire galaxy within 2 hours. If you analyze the film, most of the world building occurs on the fly in ANH. Contrast to the prequels where (sometimes) the plot grinds to a halt to explain/show/world build.

Agreed. Yet, it's all done as a backdrop to the story/characters. Cloud City could have been any number of environment/planet/atmospheres and the film would have still worked due to strong characterizations and plot.

Are you saying this thread isn't for me? I think that ANH, TPM, and Rogue One are not equivalent in how/what each film does (and has to do) in terms of world building.

For example:

ANH has to (and marvelously) set up the groundfloor/foundation for everything. As I've said, it does so efficiently and with no wasted movement. It world builds while in motion. It's ridiculous how effectively this movie communicates primarily through images and sounds rather than just dialogue.

TPM, on the other hand, has amazing visuals to show/world build, but this film also gets quite exposition heavy at times. Sometimes there's a lot of talking instead of showing. I'm specifically thinking about the entire middle section at Coruscant. It's baffling wordy and sluggish for a SW film.

Rogue One, seemingly didn't have that much world building to do. It had to focus primarily on new characters. Rogue One also used a rarely used tactic in SW films....title cards letting the audience know which planet is which. Planets which, for the most part, weren't vastly different from previously seen SW environments.

 

Fragmented universe with no central power. Also some sort of new Sith group that TLJ was pushing then chickened out on.

 

How about Democratic People's Republic of Corruscant with it's great leader Kim-Junk Ugnaught

 

I don’t recall TLJ pushing a new Sith group, unless you’re talking about Kylo and Rey almost starting some kinda Jedi/Sith hybrid order?

 

I assumed they meant the Knights of Ren or Snoke's Praetorian Guards?

 

There have been a lot of failed pan-galactic states in the course of a century. It would feel organic to me if the Resistance isn't really in a position to establish a government with much reach. At best, maybe a micro-Republic out of worlds truly devoted to their cause. And I could see sizeable factions like the Hutts or the Corporate Sector taking advantage of a galactic power vacuum.

 

Agreed. It would also be more interesting to see something new. This would certainly create more complex power dynamics.

 

Very late to this thread but my problem with any kind of balkanized galaxy is outside a few prominent exceptions, the majority of the galaxy has been unified for so long that you don't have species or regional nationalism on a larger level than generic core vs. rim. I can't see the Mon Calamari for example forming their own hegemon that would bring them into conflict with Sullustans, Twi'leks, etc so shortly after they fought for a unified liberation movement.

This means to me that there will be a "Third Republic" mostly consisting of prominent Rebellion/New Republic worlds who are unified and work closely together - I just can't see these worlds turning tail and forming competitive microstates. I can see a resurgent CSA, Hutt Empire, and a new separatist movement (New Separatist Union) or some kind of Outer Rim Union. If I were in charge, I would try and introduce more nationalistic factions - Hapans, for instance. I would also make the Imperial Remnant rump state continue to exist.

In my view, the state of the galaxy would be a "galactic government" of a Republic, but extremely stretched thin and not very "tall" in their coverage of actual space. The majority of systems with centrist tendencies would form a large unaligned bloc, and you have a bunch of other microstates competing in this power vacuum.

 

I don't really get the sense that "nationalism" really is a thing in AGFFA.

The Jedi keep talking about the Republic, but that's kind of their job to help preserve it. The Senators talk about the Republic, but again interest in the Republic is very much tied to their profession.

I mean when I think of national identity as an American, I think a lot of that gets shaped in history class when you learn the often times embellished history of the country, and the heroes of the nation that pretty much become mythical. People fly the American flag. There are national holidays and customs, etc.

I don't really see what mythmaking really ties the Republic together. Palpatine says it has stood for 1,000 years, and Ki-Adi-Mundi says the Sith have been extinct for a millennium. It would be natural, but possibly incorrect, to believe that the Republic's constituents came together with the Jedi to overthrow the Sith 1,000 years ago. But then there are creative people involved in Star Wars that muse whether the general population would even care if they found out Palpatine was a Sith.

The political situation, despite all of its technology, strikes me as being more reminiscent of the medieval period than the 1800s during which nationalism exploded. The working class people don't seem to be particularly politically motivated. Using Naboo as an example. It has an elected queen, the implication I got from AOTC was that the queen appoints the senator (as the queen asked Padme to remain senator), i.e. the people don't vote for senators(?) and then the senators in turn vote for the Chancellor.

It seems like at best, if I'm some factory worker on Corellia, I get to maybe vote for my planetary King/governor, and then everything above that on the galactic scale I seem to have no real say in, nor am I flying to Republic flag. I guess if trade agreements are made that allow my goods to reach the galactic market and keep my wages up, I'm happy(?)
And I guess there are anti-slavery laws, so that's good. But other than that, in what way am I really interfacing with the Republic?

But then a war breaks out because some Jedi (and it's vague as to how many people even know what a Jedi is) decides to secede from the Republic and there's a three year war that doesn't benefit that Outer Rim much. Immediately thereafter there's an Empire and again the Outer Rim tends to get the short end of that development, some species get enslaved and a planet blows up. It's then revealed that the Emperor was really a Sith and one of the prominent politicians in the New Republic (Leia) is revealed to be the child of the other Sith Lord. And then Leia's kid ends up leading some Imperial wannabes led by some guy named Snoke who was created by Palpatine and was a harbinger for Palpatine's return. And I'm skipping over whatever history is going to take place with Thrawn between RotJ and TFA.

So, I mean the Galaxy coming together and toppling the Sith again (assuming that's what happened the first time) could serve as the basis for a nationalistic rallying point, something that goes on to become part of the national mythmaking process. And perhaps the people could be given greater capacity for political participation in the Newer Republic.

Or honestly I think it's just as reasonable to think that the Galaxy breaks up into smaller units. Not necessarily entirely independent, but perhaps maybe in some stage where the new Constitution hasn't been fully hammered out yet, where the new Senate is constantly having to amend things and mediate things to try to hold groups together that don't need much incentive to just walk away from the idea of a Galactic Republic. Perhaps instead of planets being represented directly in the Senate there are coalitions of planets coalescing into multi-system parties that are represented as a unit to allow previously wrong systems (like those in the Outer Rim) to have a greater say in matters.

 

I think the Saga overall has shown that the galaxy is too big for a single galatic government to hold over it. independent systems seems to be the way to go (that isn't being run by a Sith lord, obviously). Like at the end of the Battle of Exegol "It's just...people."

 

It’s just people…and weapons that can destroy entire planetary systems.

When there exists destructive power like that, some kind of galactic government is probably necessary.

 

As long as they can unite when they do face a big threat (like Palpatine, or Yuuzhan Vong)... and also hoping that no independent system becomes the bully of their own little neighborhood/sector in the galaxy (or worse than a bully, does things like slavery or genocide).

But overall I agree that the galaxy logically should want to try-out a multi-state political system for a while, with dozens to thousands of independent mini-republics and mini-kingdoms/empires. Which would also be fertile ground for a New Trade Federation and other megacorporations to rise again.

So it's not a solution, but it's the logical thing for them to try for a while.

 

Yes, and they should also have a UN kind of organization where all the states can meet to work out their differences. Let's call it the United Systems. No, better yet, United Systems Alliance. Cuz everybody luvs USA.

 

And then add the New Alliance Treaty Organization vs. the Willrow Pact.

 

Here's what I would like to see The Third Republic bringing in new members while on Byss The One Sith Order and out in the furthest reaches of the galaxy The Night Sisters reform and prepare for war.

 

I’m all for copying off history. Like when Matt Martin talked about the 80/20 rule win regards to planets being 80% familiar and 20% alien.

E.G. soon after RoS trillions of aliens from beyond the Outer Rim start to flood into the the fragile Republic overwhelmingly its ability to assist everyone, as a new threat reveals itself from the Unknown Regions (German migrations into the Roman Empire and the Huns).

After the fall of Palpatine, a schism breaks out over as order starts to be restored in two nuclei of the Galaxy, and both come to war over the right to rule (Chu-Han Contention).

The Supreme Chancellors dies under mysterious circumstances and an interim council takes over until elections can be held. A popular member of the Council begins to overstep his legal bounds but is popular enough that the public doesn’t care and some start to call for him to step into the role of Chancellor without elections. (The death of Toyotomi Hideyoshi and the Battle of Sekigahara)

Just flat out copy something from history and then jazz it up with aliens, lightsabers and super weapons, etc.

 

Yes to New Republic, new government.