Senate Problems with perceptions of masculinity

Perhaps I'm not being clear. I agree that us, as a society, doesn't believe that women should be making less money than men for the same job just because they're women. But I think our society is okay if it ends up being that women make less than men. I think our society is okay with that outcome. And that's what's happening. Because society is fine with "unequal pay for equal work." So I ask, to a woman who is getting paid less than her male peers not because she's a woman but because she's from a background that had less experience (because she didn't have familial connections in the field to get a job right out of college) or because she wasn't able to negotiate for a higher pay, or for the many other reasons, does it matter to her that society thinks she shouldn't get paid less than her male peers just because of her gender? Because any attempt to talk about it will be stymied with "well actually you'll see some male employees are also paid less." Because I think that if you were getting paid less than your white peers, but assured that it's not because you're black, it's because you're just not able to negotiate for a pay that's as high as theirs, I think you wouldn't care that society, on paper, says race shouldn't be a factor in determining pay. Because the outcome that you're facing is the same outcome as if it were a factor.

 

Read my post.

I said I think teachers should be paid more. How the **** is that neutral?

It’s my personal opinion they should be paid more, but I don’t know if it’s unfair. I can want them to have more money for their service without believing it’s unfair that they are paid what they are. They aren’t mutually exclusive.

I’m a soldier. For the demands that are placed on us, the time away from our families, the risk of death or injury, I think we should paid more, however I don’t know if it’s unfair that we aren’t. Everyone wants more money.

 

That's why I first said "The big debates are around what sort of restraints are excessive or not" and later followed up with " The rest of the debate is about what counts as 'equal.'" The points you are raising are all points about the broad principle that haven't been settled. Is leveraging personal connections or knowing how to talk smoothly fair or unfair to talk about when considering whether work effort has been equal? Some people say no, others say, and many haven't even considered the question that deeply before.

It's really important to establish whether people agree that the underlying principle rule should serve is equality pay or not, however. If everyone has agreed that what we want is no gender discrimination, then all efforts are directed towards figuring out whether something represents meaningful discrimination or not. A debate that happened on the grounds of "Is gender discrimination really so bad?" would be decidedly worse. For a good parallel, yes, there were lots of barriers the could effectively deny people abortion even before the most recent Supreme Court term. But those restrictions are much more extreme and expansive now that we are in a world where states can ban abortion without any issue. Just as people sometimes took Roe for granted--legislators, mostly, who refused to pass a law guaranteeing its protections--I think you're taking the benefit of this abstract consensus for granted, even considering all the ways it falls short of the ideal.

 

…. Uh… ok…whatever you say.

 

It's entirely possible to hold a position that a change should be made without believing it is unfair if that change is not made.

 

This video was very interesting. Content warning, however, with regard to the topics mentioned. The affluent, right-wing elite props these fools up, though. The only ones that particular power elite has rejected are Jones and Crowder, or so it would seem.

I liked how Renegade Cut said that if there were a colorful joke about straight men, it would be about them having swords on the wall.

And I gotta say that I do not like the aesthetic. I think Pool's grey wall looks better than the brick walls, though I don't like his weapons. Does anyone like this brick aesthetic?

 

I have to say I hadn't noticed until the video pointed it out.

I would also question that Joe Rogan is particularly conservative, he's Centre-Right. Just because he has conservatives on his show & lacks the desire or intelligence to challenge what they say doesn't mean he agrees with all their views.
He does have that aesthetic on his show though, but that may be because it helps attract more viewers who might initially think he's like them and then stick around to hear some other views

 

this is just my opinion, but I think that many young men are bullied and abused when they were boys for the most unfair and cruel reasons. For example, boys are persecuted for being too tall, too short, or for their weight. And I think that this type of abuse affects them later in life. People shouldn't label or judge them that way. I'm trying to look at this as broadly and sociologically as I can without excusing any behaviors.

I particularly was concerned about this during elementary school because, while I didn't relate to the guys I knew back then, I felt bad for how some of them in the tiny public school on the edge of Fort Worth and especially two in the Catholic school were bullied over their looks, personality, and the fact they knew Spanish quite well.

That's just my take. I think that both in the adult world and as kids, boys are often expected to be tough-ass people who deny their emotions. Thankfully, younger guys in Gen Z and some in my generation learned to be respectful and deal with that trauma. I agree with what these nice employers at the women's shelter in Dallas said: Many guys are not gonna hurt ya. It's the culture that expects them to be poorly behaved, and the culture needs to change. This leads to a lot of problems and navigation issues.

 

One issue with regard to masculinity that I've noticed is that many cis husbands or boyfriends are not willing to give their blessing for their female partners to experiment with, say, a woman, another man, or another individual in general. Some of my female friends have said some guys in Oregon don't trip over that, and that relieved me. But I can think of only one cis husband who didn't trip if his wife wanted to see other guys in North Texas.

I mean, I don't know how many of you saw the Season Six episodes of TCW. To be clear, Padme was not going to cheat on Anakin. Never had any intention of doing so. Even so, Anakin's assault against Rush Clovis in front of Padme was an act of domestic violence against her in a way. While his assault was only against Clovis, Anakin attacking him frightened Padme and caused her to think, "Ya know, if he is willing to attack this man that I am not interested in and clearly would not prefer to be with, then he could also lose it and attack me." That's why she asked Anakin to take a break from her, to not see her. It was a teachable moment to help Anakin to grow up and not be so possessive. I think Anakin got the message because later he was willing to save Clovis despite all that happened. Also, Clovis genuinely regretted being manipulated by Tyranus Dooku, and even though Anakin tried to save him, Clovis was willing to die so Anakin could lift Padme up. Anyhow, that's just an example. Imagine if Padme wanted to see someone else besides Anakin. I mean, she's older than him, and just because he's handsome, ya know, what's wrong with a woman or a man seeing someone else as loyal as they have the permission of and loyalty to stay with their partner?

Besides, people forget that Padme is older than Anakin. Anakin could be immature outside of his work as a soldier/general. I honestly wouldn't blame her if she wanted to see someone else. But trying to get Anakin's permission for that? Gosh. That would be a task and a half. I dunno. Maybe this is just my imagination, but I can picture Mara being able to get Luke's permission for that. That's because Luke wasn't really insecure. And let's face it. Mara had more power in that relationship than Luke had in some ways. I don't know. I get straight vibes from Padme, but I get bi vibes from Mara. Not sure why my lesdar picks that up. It usually only works on people in real life.

I was actually kind of amazed when one guy said that polyamary led to control of women, and then you liked that post, like, two or three years ago, Anakinfan. Yeah...maybe in the South. But polyamory is something for which many ask these days. Honestly, I haven't met a woman who is not interested in girls and guys since...my gosh...since middle school in 2001. Haven't met any women who had zero interest in girls since May 2001, either. But I do know what you mean. Evie Lupine put out a video about a guy who cheated on his girlfriend and then said, "Let's be poly." She said that guys do that a lot, and I wasn't aware of it until now. But it's not surprising. I guess cheating is really common in Southern churches and guys and girls just don't ask permission down there a lot. Lol. I don't know. I got that vibe in the Methodist church in which I grew up, ya know, in Fort Worth. That it was cheaters' city in the cathedral. People just should be honest. I'm guessing many Gen Xers would not ask permission and they would just cheat or something. I'd be interested to hear about that. Apparently, polyamory has been common for decades in Cali, Oregon, and New England from what I'm told.

Even so, I am concerned that the abortion bans in the South and the Midwest will land have led to more domestic violence against women. I read a PBS article about that recently, too. Unfortunately, that's a factor.

Just to be clear, I hope I'm not leading anyone to believe that Anakin Skywalker was a domestic abuser in general. I don't like how he treated Padme in ROTS especially. But I think the dark side and especially Padme's death changed him into Vader. Palpatine may have pushed him into it, but it was still his choice. This is just me, but I think that if Anakin was honest with Ahsoka, she could have helped him with the Padme issue. If Ahsoka had been there in ROTS, I'm willing to bet that she could have helped him see through Sidious' manipulations. Wouldn't have been easy, but let's face it. Ahsoka would have had more influence, and Obi-Wan could have helped, too. I'm willing to bet that both Obi-Wan and Ahsoka would have been willing to keep Anakin's relationship with Padme secret. Ahsoka more so, but let's give Obi-Wan some credit. In the EU and TCW, we get vibes that Obi-Wan suspected their relationship early on. He just didn't know it was marriage. But I don't like how some people are now saying that Anakin is some incel or domestic abuser in general. Yes, he had problems, but he needed therapy, and Ahsoka, Obi-Wan and certainly Padme could have helped him out, too. If Anakin had been helped by a counselor and those three, I'm willing to bet that Sidious' manipulations wouldn't have worked so well on him.



But if we're talking about Anakin as Vader, then no. Therapy probably wouldn't have worked on Vader in most stages of his development. Luke was able to convince his dad to redeem himself through spiritual advice, if you will. Well, not so much spiritual, but he was appealing to his father's better nature. He could sense what Ahsoka sensed in Anakin, what Padme sensed. Frankly, I think Luke's personality was a bit more like Padme's than Anakin's, mostly because Luke had more in common with Beru than Owen. Silmiarly, while Leia was close with Bail and his wife, I get the vibe that she had more in common with Anakin than Padme in some ways. But she was pretty good at emotional regulation. I don't know why she was afraid of turning out like Vader in the EU. I found that odd. Anyhow, the whole point of this is that both Luke and Leia turned out better than their parents. Padme wasn't perfect. She should have gotten Anakin some help, and, well, let's be honest. She idealized Anakin sometimes, too. That wasn't healthy. Wasn't as bad as her husband's behaviors, but you know what I mean.

 

I don't think monogamy is an issue of masculinity. The desire not to have people be sexually active with others outside the person seen as their partner is pretty commonly expressed across all sorts of people. Nor is there any reason that such a wish is unreasonable.

 

Well, that's good. Oh, and I know Lord Vivec would support that. He's pretty reasonable with regard to this...and most things. I don't know. I keep hearing from the female members that there should be an addition to the Homosexuality and Transgender Threads. I did make a polyamory thread a while back. Not sure why there isn't a bisexual/polysexual/pansexual thread. And polysexual is different than polyamory, though. Funny thing is that some people are giving orientations specific names nowadays. Some of these are meant to be more inclusive of men by saying that some people can be a womasexual or a womansexual, meaning they are attracted to women and other feminine genders. I thought that was a good idea.

On the other hand, my cis gf was saying that she is a nomasexual or nomansexual, meaning that she likes women, feminine genders, and neutral genders, but not men. But I found that cute. Our late partner, the Eponym herself, was pan and she actually had mostly dated guys. One of them was good...the second one, I think. But the others were terrible, especially the one who obsessed over her and killed her. The coward killed himself. Had he lived, our district attorney's office said they would've been willing to prosecute him for a hate crime had he lived. It is a hate crime under Oregon state law and federal law to kill someone on that basis. Still miss her.

On a lighter note, a celebrity guy recently came out as pan. And Matt Walsh hated it...as though anyone would be attracted to Walsh. Lol. What a concept. But the celebrity explained how much pain and suffering he had endured over how he had been treated. I've noticed that many celebrities are willing to come out as non-binary or as other things. But for whatever reason, more people who could be mistaken as cis women come out as nonbinary, whereas men generally come out only with an orientation. Not sure why that is. But the way that bi guys are treated is pretty horrible. I feel bad for them. I mean, there are some biphobic girlfriends and wives who treat their partners like crap. Such a shame.

 

Monogamy versus polyarmorous doesn't affect masculinity. Not directly. Toxic masculinity manifests if a guy is willing to accept an open relationship, and his peers call him a cuck who cannot satisfy women. They will even go harder than that. They have trouble understanding that a man who is comfortable with this type of relationship is more mature than they are. And if it isn't that, they really get stupid over women who are sexually active and just become vicious. They just live to be nasty towards women. They have such a warped world view that it is scary.

As to Anakin and Rush, jealousy is an ugly thing. That kind of insecurity is the kind that is dangerous. He was blind to the Force which would confirm that Padme's feelings towards Rush were clearly platonic. It's one thing to expect fidelity in a relationship, but it's another to be jealous like that. This whole plot line was an extension of the meadow picnic and the discussion about Palo.

 

Lord Vivec - noted communist and monogamy enthusiast.

 

Insecurity. The heart of all evil.

 

Lord Vivec - misunderstood but respects all women, they say. I'll disagree with him on some points, but he's cool I hear. He's enthusiastic about love you can't understand, Philosopher. You too Lowie..

 

I really don't understand what's going on anymore

 

It's OK. Can we organize a beer pong tournament? Tomorrow we go to the gym to ride it off.

 

Vivec's just a soul whose intentions are good.

 

Too true from what my girl tells me. Do you think you could beat Kathryn Newton in golf? Let's go golf in Scotland. She's athletic man.

How much can you bench press? Meaning: decline chest press, Chorus? How many over the course of 10 to 40 minutes? I personally favor Gold gyms. Now tho I'm into SamFit and Anytime Fitness. Do we have a gym rat thread?? If not, I'll tell ya this. I wanna see the L man give me a research paper on the Cullen Davis mother****er. If he doesn't, he's gotta bench press 170. I can do 250. I'm gonna make him an elite or he's gonna take the L. I'll give him some wings either way. Then I do yoga and drink some Napa Valley wine tonight.

 

And now the tune is stuck in my head, thank you SO MUCH!!!

I just tagged you in our Fitness thread.

 

Except for the time he personally invaded Vietnam.