PT Ranking Lightsaber Duelists

Sorry if there's already a thread for this, didn't see one.

I thought it might be fun to rank lightsaber duelists into tiers. I've included major characters from the prequels through the original trilogy, from F- to S tier. It's by no means definitive, obviously, but I was trying to gauge their ability off of wins, as well as progression within their organizations. I think that anybody should be able to handily beat someone in a lower tier, although the A+ and A tiers have more parity. Dooku might belong in S tier, but I think that needs to be very selective. Master-level Obi wan might belong in A+ tier due to his victory over Vader on Mustafar, but I tend to think he got that win because he trained Anakin, and knew his abilities better than anyone.

I'd love to hear your own opinions/rankings, and if there are any other major characters who should be included. I wasn't sure where to place Plo Kloon.

 

This is an interesting topic. In some ways it’s hard to rank duellists because lightsaber fights incorporate force powers and acrobatics as well as swordsmanship.

I enjoy Dooku’s style of swordsmanship and I think that taking on Obi Wan and Anakin together really showed his prowess. This is especially true when we factor in the age disparity and the fact that he was still able to take on Yoda immediately after dispatching the younger men.

I’m not sure that I’d rank Grievous quite so highly. Grievious overwhelmed his enemies with multiple spinning blades and additional cybernetic limbs. Grievious lacked the skill of a trained Jedi. That said, he is to be commended for having faced and defeated several Jedi without having recourse to the force.

I think that, if the duelists were all stripped of their connections to the force and were measured in terms of pure swordsmanship, Dooku, Maul and Mace Windu would be the top three. Dooku is the classic, composed expert swordsman, whilst Maul has a deadly mix of skill and physicality. Windu seems to have a very Spartan mentality. He is highly trained, focused and brutal when necessary.

Without the force to power their acrobatics and compensate for their old age (and Yoda‘a small stature), I don’t believe that Palpatine or Yoda would be able to cross swords with any of the younger duelists (despite their skill).

 

I hadn't thought about it like this, but you may be correct. Windu and Dooku seem to have more physical, traditional swordsmanship, I think I read somewhere that while he was still a Jedi, Dooku was considered the best fighter in the order. And of course Maul turns in the most acrobatic and spectacular performance of the trilogy. When I was considering the rankings, I was including force power as well, which I believe puts Yoda and Sidious solidly in the S Tier. Separating a duelists technical prowess from their command of the force is kind of tricky imo, but interesting to consider.

I think you may be correct. When I ranked Grievous in the A tier, it was to reflect his ability to contend with Obi-wan, and that Ki-Adi-Mundi was unable to defeat him at the Battle of Hypori. But now that I look at it, the A tier might benefit from being more selective, and since Kit Fisto was able to basically defeat Grievous (with help from clones) some rearangement might be in order. I think it makes sense for Grievous to go down a tier, and Barris as well. Actually, I think all the upper tiers could be a bit more selective. This might look a bit better:

 

I wouldn't put Mace in the top tier. He needed a hand against Palpatine.

 

If only Windu had used the Jar'Kai style he'd have been able to reflect Sidious' force lightning.

 

I would overhaul your entire list because this is very inaccurate.

For starters, Kanan and the grand Inquisitor do not belong in the same tier as AOTC Anakin skywalker. Kanan is a high padawan level to low Jedi knight level at best, while the grand Inquisitor was mid-Jedi knight level.

This is because the grand Inquisitor used to be a sentinel so his focus wasn't on lightsaber combat, instead, his focus went into intelligence gathering.

Now AOTC Anakin was already as skilled enough to be evenly matched with AOTC Kenobi and mid-level Jedi masters like Adi Gallia and Tholme.

 

Hmm, that's a good point, AOTC Anakin performed about as well as Obi-wan vs Dooku, so he was already much stronger than comparative padawans. Adi Gallia was defeated by Savage Oppress, who was defeated by Maul, so that is a useful metric as well. I'm curious how you would evaluate the Grand Inquistor's power level/rank, would you say he's better or worse than other Jedi Temple guards by the time he gets to Rebels? It seemed like Kanan was basically an even match for him, and did end up defeating him when the moment came.

How do you feel about the S, A+, A tiers? And besides Gallia, is there anyone you think should be added to the rankings?

 

Assigning an F minus to the younglings seems a little harsh.

 

@christophero30 well, somethings has to be at the bottom

we could get even goofier and put the training remotes above them

 

and Han Solo in ESB.

 

TPM Kenobi is too low on your list, the guy was 25 years old, perfectly trained by Qui-Gon and he was ready to become a Jedi knight and he become one in the end of the movie, and he take Anakin as his apprentice. TPM Kenobi was basically equivalent of RotJ Luke, the way how they become a Jedi, RotJ Luke wasn't a Jedi until he faced Vader, TPM Kenobi wasn't a Jedi until he faced with Maul.

Another fact is that, they said RotJ Luke is not even stronger than Rey.



RotJ Luke is too high in your list, he is probably below even TPM Kenobi, who was tier 7 in Nick Gillard's system.

I don't know how Dooku can be so high when Savage Opress actually defeated him and when Anakin easily destroyed him?



''True or False? Dooku cannot be bested in a lightsaber duel.''
''False: Opress disarms him but is bested by Force lightning.''
Source: The Clone Wars: What Is a Sith Warrior? (2012)



Dooku also lost to Quinlan Vos in the Canon.

Nick Gillard, the guy who directed the lightsaber duels in PT, pretty much settled this; 10 tier list;

What we know for sure that;

- Anakin at his best is tier 9, Yoda and Sidious are tier 9
- Windu is between tier 8 and tier 9
- RotS Kenobi, Maul, Dooku are tier 8
- TPM/AotC Kenobi, Kit Fisto are tier 7

Maul is also ranked higher than Dooku in the official canon top 5 red lightsaber users list.


3-) Darth Maul
4-) Darth Tyranus
Source: Star Wars - Absolutely Everything You Need to Know (2015)

Qui-Gon, Savage and Ventress probably between tier 7 and tier 8, like Ahsoka. Qui-Gon trained Kenobi, and he is trained perfectly by Dooku and Yoda, Gillard said Obi-Wan and Anakin are like Qui-Gon, they come from the same line. And Kenobi has become that good because of Qui-Gon's training.

''From Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan gained the skills and the wisdom that would serve him so well as a Jedi and as a military leader during the Clone Wars.''
Source: Age of Republic - Qui-Gon Jinn (2019)

Nick Gillard: ''They (Anakin & Obi-Wan) are almost the same those two, because they've learnt, they come up through the same way. Taught by Qui-Gon, Tyranus, Yoda. It's the same line.''
Source: Star Wars It's All For Real - The Stunts Of Episode III

I also don't know in what world Ahsoka is on the same level with Maul? The director clearly said Maul is a better swordsman than her.

Dave Filoni: ''When Ahsoka pauses and struggles at the break in the fight, it was really meant to portray the toll it took on her compete against Maul. I wanted to take a lot out of Ahsoka to compete at his level. He is the stronger sword fighter.''
Source: Clone Wars Download: "Shattered" (2020)

It's the same in the Rebels, the original group was Ahsoka, Kanan and Ezra.
''Kanan agrees to split the group up, the logical choice pairing Maul with the weakest of the Jedi.''
Source: Starwars.com/series/star-wars-rebels/twilight-of-the-apprentice-episode-gallery-2

The strongest Maul had the match with the weakest of the Jedi.
Group A: Maul / Ezra.
Group B: Ahsoka / Kanan.
It was Maul > Ahsoka > Kanan > Ezra.

Also Grievous is too high, Grievous can't use the Force, and he never defeated a decent a Jedi knight in the canon, even the director of the show said Ventress > Grievous.

Dave Filoni: "I still don't believe that, at this point -- one-to-one -- that Grievous could really take out someone like Ventress in a lightsaber fight. I don't see how he can hope to be as proficient as a Jedi or a Sith could be fighting with a lightsaber, which is why he's always willing to dirty play at the end of the day."
Source: IGN interview (2012)

 

Your S tiers are almost perfect, everything else below needs some restructuring . As for characters, there is alot of people that need to be added. Heck, I have alot of people in mine and there are still a considerable amount of people missing. Here is how I would rank these characters from the Skywalker Saga.



S tier- Grand master Luke
Yoda
Sidious
Darth Vader

A+ tier - Kyle Katarn
Count Dooku
Mace Windu
General grevious (Legends)
Anakin Skywalker (ROTS)

A tier - Shaak ti
Kit Fisto
Luke Skywalker (ROTJ)
Obi-wan Kenobi (ROTS)
Plo Koon
Darth Maul (TPM)
Ahsoka Tano (Rebels)

B+ tier - Quinlon Vas
Ki-Adi-Mundi
An'ya Kuro
Oppo Rancisis
Sora Bulq
Depa Bilabba
Darth Maul (post TPM)
Asajj Ventress

B tier- Qui Gon Jinn
Sasee Tinn
Kylo Ren
Savage Opress
Tholme
Aalya Secura
Eeth Koth
Adi Gallia
Obi-wan Kenobi (AOTC)
Anakin Skywalker (AOTC)
Agen Kolar
Luminara Unduli
General Grevious (TCW)
Even Piell
Bultar Swan
Jaden Korr
A'sharad Hett
Ahsoka Tano (Season 7)

C+ tier - The Grand Inquisitor
Barriss Offee
Ahsoka (Season 1-5)
Stasis Allie

C tier - Cal Kestis
Rey
Obi wan kenobi (TPM)

D+ tier - Trilla
Ninth sister
Kanan Jarrus

D tier - Fifth Brother
Eigth Brother
Seventh Sister

F+ tier - Ezra bridger

F tier - Finn

Honorable mentions:

Cin Drallig (ROTS Game) - A+
Serra Keto (ROTS Game) - B
Darth Caedus - A
Jaiana Solo fel - A+
Mara Jade Skywalker - A+
Darth Plagueis - A
Anakin Solo - B
Ben Skywalker- C+
Kyp Durron - A+
Corran Horn - B+
Qu Rahn - B
Jerec - B+

 

@Erkan12 That is a lot to go over, and some fascinating opinions by the SW creators! I'm generally going with an "author is dead" framework here, so that we can evaluate rankings based off the text. Supplemental material and author opinions can change over time, but the films/tv shows do not. My primary consideration for the rankings was wins and losses, with force powers like lightning and telekinesis being important tools for a duelist to employ. In that sense, I believe that Dooku was able to decisively beat Savage. Maul was also able to handily defeat Savage, and I think those fights are the most important metrics in determining his rank. Anakin's victory vs Dooku over Coruscant seems to place him on at least equal rank. I'm not convinced that Anakin/Vader's powers grew very much between then and ROTJ, but definitely open to persuasion.

Good point, padawan Obi-wan needs to be higher. I'm not sure quite how high though. While he did have a victory over Maul on Naboo, he was later unable to defeat him on Florrum, and again over Raydonia, although those were both team battles. He was never able to defeat Dooku on his own, even after becoming more powerful as he attained the rank of master. Maybe the B tier is appropriate? I admit, I'm having trouble finding the right place for Maul, he's suffered a lot of losses over time (loss to Kanan on Malachor V is a real sore spot), but also a lot of victories. I can see from your avi that you like him! Where do you think he should end up?

My main consideration here is that Ahsoka was able to defeat Maul on Mandalore. He was distracted for a moment, but that is just part of the fight. I believe that puts her on at least equal terms to him. She was defeated by Ventress while still a padawan, but it seems her power level increased quite a bit by the end of the clone wars. She would later be able to compete with Vader, who was very powerful himself.

The main reason I think Luke belongs in the A+ tier is his victory over Anakin/Vader in ROTJ. While he did not receive the extensive training of he Jedi predecessors, the quality of that win speaks for itself imo.

I find it hard to consider that Windu is anything lower than S tier, because of his win over Sidious. I'm open to considering the argument that Sidious intentionally threw the fight in order to force Anakin to betray Windu, but everything about that fight suggests that Sidious was really trying his damnedest just to survive, but was beaten. After all, he'd already convinced Anakin that his power was crucial to saving Padme.

Grievous is tricky, because in Tarkovsky's Clone Wars, he's able to defeat five Jedi simultaneously, including Ki-adi-mundi. He also nearly defeats Obi-wan in his prime. These would seem to be important metrics. This originally made me think A tier was appropriate, but B feels like a good compromise.

New Tiers to reflect a better TPM Obi-wan:


@Narancia I love how comprehensive your rankings are! I'm curious to how you're evaluating luck/outside interference, do you think Kylo's loss to Rey on Endor is mitigated by Leia? And, how would you valuate Ahsoka's apparent win vs. Maul on Mandalore? I'm very curious to hear how you decided to rank Plo Kloon, as I was a bit puzzled for where to put him. I confess I'm not as familiar with EU characters, so it'll be hard to put them into my own rankings.

Also, I gotta ask, are you a sock puppet? No need to be shy here, but if you joined the forums for some rankings fun, that's awesome.

Edit: nm re: Kylo vs Rey 2, I had to rewatch that, forgot how it played out.

 

Thank you @Glitterstimm I worked hard on it lol. Luck does play a part in a duel however I'm ranking characters based on overall skill, not luck nor potential. The first battle Rey had against Kylo in TFA was all luck as we can see in ROS as Kylo didn't really take her seriously in that fight. Sure Ahsoka beat maul and escaped Grievous however you also have to consider the mindset of each character when they lose. Maul had no intention of fighting he just wanted a way to undermine Sidious and when he couldn't he tried to escape yet it still took everything Ahsoka had just to survive. As for her escaping TCW General Grievous, it's pretty obvious, as Grievous didn't even really try.

P.S I just joined the forums because there's not that many people I know of that are passionate about star wars like I am lol.

@Erkan12 Be careful when taking a creator's word to heart as opposed to what's actually shown.

"George Lucas changes his mind on a lot of things, at first he said Vader was weaker than every other Jedi in Golden age then he changed his mind about it later on which is why he updated his canon before he sold it to Disney."

“Darth Maul vs Darth Vader (Legends Only) - Battles.” Comic Vine, comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/darth-maul-vs-darth-vader-legends-only-2046132/?page=1.

Now Kenobi as a padawan is talented but less so than Anakin and Ahsoka when they were padawans. Watch this in order to understand where Kenobi stood between those two.



Now lastly there is no way Rey is more skilled than ROTJ Luke with the level of profeciency she has shown. Maybe Kylo was, however his emotional state in the movies and comics say other wise. I am willing to believe he is Jedi master level though.

 

@Glitterstimm Also I placed Plo Koon in the A tier because of his numerous praises by other Jedi and the fact that he is the only Jedi to beat Yoda in a sparring session.

Sources:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/aurbere/blog/plo-koon-respect-thread/103174/

 

After watching TROS I think its very apparent that Maul facing Sidious(who has the full alchemy and dark scientific support of the Sith Eternal and he was all the Sith i.e. he was was the culmination of a thousand years of Sith training and planning. A millennium of Sith knowledge and power) and surviving the Force pushes and lightning and becoming stronger cause of it, just puts Maul WAY over the mountain than any of these guys - we can except for maybe Windu and Yoda as far as Jedi go.

Maul defeated Kenobi and Jinn, that means he defeated Dooku since he was the master of Jinn. And Jinn was a better Jedi and swordsman than Dooku. Maul also easily defeated Ventress and Grievous , also trained by Dooku. Maul also captured Dooku. There is no way Dooku is above Maul. Vos also defeated grievous before Kenobi, and he defeated Dooku before Anakin, so Anakin's ability in defeating him isnt a one off deal at all.


Dave Filoni: ''When Ahsoka pauses and struggles at the break in the fight, it was really meant to portray the toll it took on her compete against Maul. I wanted to take a lot out of Ahsoka to compete at his level. He is the stronger sword fighter.''


To add to that, Sidious did that same pause during his duel with Maul and Savage and he had to separate them since they were almost a dyad, the two that are one. And Maul didnt want to kill Ahsoka at all. They also made it a point that Ahsoka was wrestling her own dark side and was more aggressive. From the beginning in the sewers right up to their last encounter on the Star Destroyer that Maul scuttled Maul did not want to kill her. He chose to Force push crates and her away while she was more aggressive during the last arc and wrestling with her own alignment, she went to decapitate him but he was too quick. He was sparring with her and playing a Sith game the entire time. He gave her many chances to live this past season . He also defeated her soundly and chose not to cut cat-walk metal beams which would've sent her likely plummeting to her death. While Maul was in no danger from the fall above the city, as he knew how to survive great falls(part of his training and has done so in TCW(Sundari palace Season 5 The Lawless), TPM(Naboo) and Rebels(Malachor) and he was pretending he was knocked out in the coffin while spying his captors.



Maul orchestrated the siege of Mandalore and had his survival in mind the entire time, he was never in any danger, everything he planned for as he knew the various scenerios. Once Anakin failed to show, he switched to getting Ahsoka. He was tapping into the Force like Yoda and Sidious for knowledge and to see into the future and let it guide him, as the Force was with him. And he wanted Ahsoka to his free will apprentice and played a similar game like he did with Ezra on Rebels.

Maul also overpowered and took down the powerhouse Savage Opress in seconds with very little effort, while Dooku and Ventress had great difficultly against him, Kenobi and Anakin were easily outmatched and overpowered and Sidious got winded facing a fully trained Savage. Even a one armed Savage non-natural Force user lasted longer than some of the best Jedi Masters which is testament to Savage's skill and Maul's for training him(and Talzin's bloodline).

Maul also fended off both Mace Windu and Secura at the same time, a fight he believed was more worthy of his time than facing Kenobi again whom he defeated a few times already in the past but did not want to kill him. Its very likely Maul wanted to convert Kenobi, and Maul also wanted to be a Jedi in his youth. Maul was never completely evil but he was raised by evil and became an unwilling weapon of evil. The Maul of Rebels is just bored and an agent of chaos. The show never did anything with him, was just a write off.

Maul gave Sidious one his best fights and one of the few that were capable of facing him in a match. Maul was never meant to defeat him cause Sidious was too powerful and he had clones(and who knows what else). Maul and Talzin orchestrated things for Maul's resurrection to lure out Sidious so she could kill him. This is confirmed in The Star Wars book as well as Son of Dathomir. Maul was always willing live bait for Talzin to get to Sidious . And Maul could channel Talzin from within him

"For all his power, Maul is but a pawn in a larger game. His return resurrection by Mother Talzin is a ploy to draw out Sidious so she could exact revenge. His capture by Sidious is likewise a lure to Talzin."

Talzin went through a few delays such as her helping Ventress and that first plot of revenge against the Sith for taking Maul backfiring with the Nightsisters getting decimated and Ventress becoming a bountyhunter and later the destruction of the living sphere on Zardossa Stix where she lost her physical form temporarily. And Maul had to trap and ensnare Dooku for her to drain.



Mother Talzin was also a very capable duelist, he held her own against Mace Windu where it was a pretty much a stalemated match up before the explosion ended things. She also held her own against Sidious in Dooku's possessed body and outside of it she was able to repel both his lightning and later Dooku's. But she chose to save Maul rather revenge.

As great as Ahsoka is, there is no way Ahsoka is near Maul's level, he dropped himself down some for her compete. Her prior outings with her sabers before her long gap without them(and further Jedi training) was against Grievous(where she fled and was winded with no upperhand aside from the Slave I's cannons) and then against Bariss where she was more evenly matched but eventually she was soundly defeated by the more skilled Bariss despite all of Ahsoka's war combat experience and training.







I think important to remember that Maul defeated Kenobi in TPM, he out sword fought him and out Force powered him , he pushed him into the pit after lining him up for it. He just chose not to finish him off(director at the time). Maul would later dominate his fights with Jedi Master and General Kenobi during the Clone Wars. Cyborg Maul would be only below only Sidious in skill and power. If Maul was whole and did not fall on Naboo, his training, power and skill would've been quadrupled that we see during TCW and Rebels. But Naboo Maul was unmatchable to any of the Jedi at the time. He also destroyed Eldra Kaitis before Jinn. She was supposed to be a very powerful and skilled Jedi Padawan of that era. Sidious orchestrated that test and Maul passed for both killing her and being a Sith, where the apprentice must betray the master & hunger for more power. *She also drooped a mountain on him and it did not phase him one bit

"You have been well trained my young apprentice. They will be no match for you."

 

Dooku himself said Savage has grown more powerful after their last fight, and he said Savage is a threat to himself.

Dooku: ''I can sense him Grievous, that creature Savage Opress is growing stronger and stronger as each day
Grievous: ''You consider him as a threat?''
Dooku: ''He is a threat to all of us!''
-- The Clone Wars Season 4 Episode 21

Dooku never decisively beat Savage and he run from in their last fight, and Savage has grown more powerful since their last fight, arguably he could do better against Dooku after that.

Maul on the other hand, easily dealt with a stronger Savage Opress. It's a far better performance than Dooku did.

Anakin completely destroyed Dooku in RotS, and they specifically said Dooku was no match for Anakin. I don't know how you can put Dooku and Anakin on the same level in RotS, when Sidious specifically said Anakin is ''more powerful'' than Dooku.



Sidious: ''His death was a necessary loss. Soon I will have a new apprentice, one far younger and more powerful.''
--- Revenge of the Sith

So you can't actually put Anakin on a same level with Dooku, which is why Dooku ranks behind of Anakin, at the same level with Obi-Wan and Maul in tier 8 according to the guy who wrote the PT lightsaber duels (Nick Gillard).

The point is Maul's weakness is his overconfident, the same weakness that Sidious has. One handed Vader defeated Sidious, and Rey defeated Sidious, that doesn't mean One handed Vader = Sidious, or Rey = Sidious, it happened because of Sidious's overconfidence, (as Luke said; ''your overconfidence is your weakness'') and because of the characters unusual momentary power-ups.

Kenobi and Ahsoka did the same against Maul, after Maul winning the fight, he gets overconfident, and he lets them to surprise him with unusual move. Kenobi only won on Naboo because Maul started to toy with him after disarming him, it's the same with Ahsoka. He was better swordsman than both. The problem was not his skills, it was his overconfidence, just like the same problem with Sidious, but I don't see you saying one handed Vader = Sidious, or Rey = Sidious, when this happens, people say ''oh because they are chosen one'' etc. No they are not, it simply happens because of the same reason that Luke said to Sidious, ''your overconfidence is your weakness''. The chosen one concept didn't even exist until PT, and in OT one handed Vader defeated Sidious because of Sidious's overconfidence.

It's the same thing why Anakin lost to Kenobi, Kenobi defeated Anakin because of Anakin's overconfidence, not because Anakin = Obi-Wan, it was clear that Anakin > Obi-Wan, just like Maul > Obi-Wan, but they both lost because of their overconfidence.

Maul clearly defeated Kenobi on Raydonia, Kenobi ran from him.

Kenobi: ''We are outmatched.''
Ventress: ''You want to run?''
Kenobi: ''I learned from watching you.''
Source: The Clone Wars - Season 4 Episode 22 (2012)

On Florrum, the same thing happened, Kenobi ran from Maul again even after Adi Gallia died.

Hondo: ''Where is the other Jedi?''
Kenobi: ''She's... She's dead.''
Hondo: ''She's d They are too powerful for even you? I am semi-speechless.''
Source: The Clone Wars - Season 5 Episode 01 (2012)

Maul retreated after Savage Opress lost his arm, not because Kenobi was better than him, then Maul KOed Kenobi with a powerful Force push.



And Kenobi got ''more focus'' after Adi Gallia died. He was stronger than usual. The director clearly said Kenobi wasn't going to lose after Adi Gallia died, just like he was stronger after Qui-Gon died.

Dave Filoni : ''So Obi-Wan rushed out there didn't realize Savage Opress was there, thought he was just going to fight against the strange guy, wasn't even sure he was Darth Maul, thought someone claiming to be Darth Maul. Gets there and worst case scenario not only he is Darth Maul, he realizes that he is teaming up with Savage Opress and he loses that fight.
Ventress and Obi-Wan together are kind a stalemating them, but eventually they gonna lose in that space, in that situation, and they needed to flee.''
"When you get to this episode (S05 E01) Obi-Wan is much more focused and ready. Not only that but when Adi Gallia dies he gains even more focus and has to kind of right that wrong. He is a very skilled swordsman so he is not going to lose that fight in that situation.
I'd be lying to tell you there wasn't a bit of provocation."
Source : Star Wars Celebration Clone Wars Season Five Premiere

So he clearly says because of Adi Gallia's death, Obi-Wan gets stronger during the fight, but even then Maul still overpowers Kenobi with the Force.

That's the difference, Dooku was never in this position, Dooku never killed anyone Obi-Wan loved, and which is why Obi-Wan didn't get stronger during the fight against Dooku. There are other factors like momentary power-ups and being overconfident, you are missing these when it comes to Maul.

Maul is definitely at the same level with Dooku, and above Ahsoka. And slightly stronger than Dooku as well. I think I proved that, but even Lucas said a similar thing that Vader wasn't as powerful as the Emperor, he was ''like'' Maul and Dooku.

George Lucas: "But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."
Source: Rolling Stone Interview (2005)

Another point is that Dooku was older than Maul, Dooku was always there for Sidious to take as his apprentice instead of Maul, you should really ask this question to yourself, why would Sidious take a weaker apprentice, if he can get a stronger one? Sidious chose Maul over Dooku, as the director said, Sidious shoudn't lose Maul, while Dooku was a placeholder for Anakin, Dooku was never a true apprentice like Maul.

Sidious: ''And my apprentices? Darth Maul was a loss. But Darth Tyranus... He was a proton torpedo.''
Source: Darth Vader #20 - End of Games, Part I (2016)

Sidious says Maul was more valuable than Dooku as his apprentice, he says Dooku was a proton torpedo, while Maul was a loss.

Against Kanan, he was again overconfident, and he never actually lost. Kanan got stronger momentarily after got blinded,

Freddie Prinze Jr. : ''That's where Force takes over, not the Jedi. The Force takes over. Kanan vs. the Grand Inquisitor, that's Kanan releasing his fear and his attachment, and sort of being like water. This is a Force overpowering moment. So for that moment between the two of them (Maul and Kanan), that's a Force explosion. Kanan isn't controlling that, that's the Force dictating what's going to happen to him.''
Source : First Order Transmissions #197: Star Wars Rebels Finale Interview

Otherwise Maul was stronger than both Ahsoka and Kanan, he was able to fight 3 Inquisitors at the same time, which is something they couldn't do.
Again you are missing momentary power-ups that comes from certain characters in certain moments. They have told us many times that.

Ahsoka didn't beat Maul, Maul disarmed her and he tried to turn her to the dark side, if he wasn't toying, he could easily kill Ahsoka.



And that would never happen, if they weren't on a cliff, Maul simply fell because of the environment they were fighting on, Ahsoka's little trick wouldn't work if there was no cliff. Maul fell after winning the duel because of toying with Ahsoka, and even that Ahsoka's momentary power-up wouldn't be effective if they were fighting on a different location.

Didn't you see the next fight, where Maul overpowered Ahsoka without even his lightsabers?



And before that fight, before Maul decided to toy with her, (because he wanted to turn her to the dark side) he easily overpowered again and knocked her aside.



I also showed you the director statement that says Maul is a stronger sword fighter than Ahsoka.

And if he wasn't, he couldn't easily deal with her on Malachor, and he couldn't turn his back at Ahsoka during the duel,



Maul was easily controlling the duel against Ahsoka and he was stronger than Ahsoka. Which is why Ahsoka needed to run from Maul.

And I also showed you why, Maul > Ahsoka by giving that example about Ezra, Ezra had to go with the strongest of their group, who was Maul, not Ahsoka.



Because Ezra was the weakest Jedi, and he needed to pair with someone stronger than Ahsoka, and that person was Maul.

Which is why they split like;
-Maul / Ezra
-Ahsoka / Kanan

As I said earlier about Maul, it applies to Vader as well. Luke wasn't stronger than Vader, Vader lost because of his conflict, just like Maul lost because of his overconfidence. This kind of emotions can hinder the Force users and help the weaker one to win for a moment. But that doesn't mean RotJ Luke was equal to Vader, or stronger than Vader. Luke wasn't even a Jedi yet in RotJ.

Windu as well, win against Sidious because of a momentary power-up. Normally, he isn't really stronger than Maul.



Source: Star Wars: Darth Maul - Son of Dathomir #03

This is Maul vs. Aayla Secura + Mace Windu, Windu couldn't even defeat Maul when he had help from Aayla Secura, he is definitely not on Yoda's or Sidious's level. He is close, but not exactly equal to them, he needs a momentary power-up to defeat them.

1- Windu was amped against Sidious because of wanting to save Republic.

''Because Mace, too, has an attachment. Mace has a secret love.
Mace Windu loves the Republic.''
(...)
''Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life. More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their own ways. He was fighting for the Republic that he loved.''
Source: Revenge of the Sith Novel

2- Windu was amped against Sidious because of Anakin's fears, helped Windu to get stronger.

''He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge.
Mace leveled his blade. "You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear."
Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said.
He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons. "Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"
Source: Revenge of the Sith Novel

It was not Sidious's fear, it was Anakin's;

''Fear. This was the wound Anakin had taken. This was the hurt that had him shaking and stammering and too weak to stand. Some black fear had hatched like fever wasps inside the young Knight's brain, and it was killing him.''
Source: Revenge of the Sith Novel

So when Windu isn't amped and momentarily more powerful, he isn't really stronger than Maul or Dooku.

The reason why I brought the statement from the director about Grievous, is to explain why he lost to Ventress, that actually happened, they told us Ventress defeated Grievous, because Grievous couldn't really compete someone like Ventress.

In here Ventress defeats Grievous.




--- The Clone Wars Season 4 Episode 19

Against Maul? She was running away.


--- The Clone Wars Season 4 Episode 22

Maul also defeated Grievous, and captured him in the Clone Wars.


Grievous: ''Gurrf!''
Source: Darth Maul - Son of Dathomir #02 (2014)

 

Woah I'm fine with you trying to high ball Maul @Erkan12 but your not gonna do Mace dirty like that.
Mace Windu is just as strong if not stronger than Darth Maul! Your system with Nick Gilliard is flawed, the man changed his mind on Mace's power level long after the books and comics painted this man as the 2nd best Jedi in the entire order and an equal of Dooku. And no Anakin did not stomp Dooku, Anakin's win comes down to the fact that Anakin mastered Djem so to the point that it was a mismatch for Count Dooku.

''As highly respected Master of the Jedi Order in the last years of the Old Republic, Mace was often regarded as second only to the Grand Master Yoda in wisdom, while his powers and mastery of the lightsaber were considered legendary.'' - Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File Remake #008 (2014)

Rissa Mano: ''He is a top five Jedi Master of all time for sure!'' - Source: Jedi of the Republic - Mace Windu #01 (2017)

This is the moment that defines Mace Windu. Not his countless victories in battle, nor the numberless battles his diplomacy has avoided. Not his penetrating intellect, or his talents with the Force, or his unmatched skills with the lightsaber. - Source: Revenge of the Sith Novel (2005)

Mace Windu trained one of the deadliest Jedi masters in the entire clone wars saga in Depa Bilaba and was one of the few people that Mace trusted to learn his personal style Vapaad.
Depa's mastery of Vaapad makes her virtually unbeatable in personal combat.. —Star Wars Shatterpoint

Hell, he trained her so well that Mace thought that she surpassed him in lightsaber combat. (Which was proven to not be true later in the novel.)

"On that day in Nar Shaddaa, she showed me blade work that surpassed my own; she had continued to grow and study and progress in Vaapad as well as the Force." —Star Wars: Shatterpoint(Mace Windu).

Depa Bilaba did almost kill Mace, however, that was because he was not only holding back, he was injured from his duel with his clan brother Kar Vastor whose physicality is similar to that of Maul.

"Mace Windu himself, after doing battle with Vastor, stated that the latter's raw power in the Force put him on par with Yoda or Anakin Skywalker. He could also use his power in the Force to heal, as he did with Liane Trevval and Besh when they had been bitten by the fever wasp larva.

Vastor also possessed incredible physical strength and lightning fast speed and reflexes for a man of his size, which made him an excellent hand-to-hand combatant. He was trained in the use of vibroshields and bladed weapons, making him a frightening opponent in battle." -starwars.fandom.com



Post TPM Maul is similar to Kar Vastor in combat and force potential, not to mention that Maul at this point isn't the cold-blooded assassin that he was in TPM instead he is akin to a berserker with bouts of Finesse, essentially the inverse of Anakin's transformation into Darth Vader. So if Mace ever fought post-TPM Maul one-on-one he would overcome him the same way he overcame Kar Vastor, by targeting weak points and slowly whittling down his stamina. Of course, this will definitely be a hard, bloody fight however 7/10 times Maul loses. And as for TPM Maul that fight is not that much closer, TPM Maul is stupidly arrogant, to the point where he let padawan Kenobi bisect him. Mace would definitely take advantage of any mistake Maul made.

Speaking of Anakin I have a little dime for you dropped by Ahsoka, as even she knew that Maul at this point in his career was a shadow of his former self.









Honestly people in the A and B+ tiers would make better competition. Anyone in the A+ tiers and above would beat him 7/10 times.

 

I don't know why you bring this up, we know Ahsoka is the biggest Anakin high baller, and she would probably think Anakin can beat anyone, so she is obviously not the best source. Of course she would overestimate Anakin's abilities, as she didn't even believe Maul when Maul said Anakin is going to join Sidious and he will become Sidious's new apprentice. She is the most contradicted person when it comes to Anakin, she literally said Vader is not Anakin, and she was talking nonsense when Vader said Anakin Skywalker was weak and he destroyed him.

She was just talking nonsense in that fight, she barely survived when Maul was holding back, even the director said she was in shock when she faced with someone on Maul's power level, which is why she struggled to get up in here;



Dave Filoni: ''When Ahsoka pauses and struggles at the break in the fight, it was really meant to portray the toll it took on her compete against Maul. I wanted to take a lot out of Ahsoka to compete at his level. He is the stronger sword fighter.''
Source: Clone Wars Download: "Shattered"

Maul was also distracted because he has seen Order 66 in his vision. So he was not at his best, while Ahsoka was at her best.

In comparison with Yoda and Sidious? Yes Windu is not on their level if he is not amped. And there is nothing wrong with that, Sidious is so powerful that he choked Dooku via hologram.


--- The Clone Wars Season 6 Episode 10

People make mistakes by thinking Yoda wasn't holding back against Dooku, Yoda was definitely holding back, and Yoda later said he didn't want to ''hurt'' Dooku, because Dooku was Yoda's former apprentice. Yoda as a Jedi is mercifull. But Sidious is not.

''You might want to help her," Dooku said. With a bound, Yoda was at the casement.
Whirry was windmilling down through the black air, screaming and tumbling toward the flagstones. Narrowing his eyes, Yoda reached out through the Force and caught her not three meters from the ground.
Instantly he was in the air himself, spinning away from Dooku's vicious attack before he was even consciously aware it was coming. The blinding scarlet blur of Dooku's lightsaber split the air, slashing a burning line along Yoda's side before chopping his desk in half. Yoda whipped out his blade while trying to set Whirry gently down on the cobblestones below.
"Wish to hurt you, I do not!"
"That's odd," Dooku remarked. "I intend to enjoy killing you.''
Source: Yoda - Dark Rendezvous

Also, Maul has grown even more powerful during the Clone Wars,

''Maul had grown more powerful since the last time he’d been in Sidious’s presence, before the Neimoidian invasion of Naboo had turned disastrous and Obi-Wan had bested him inside the Theed power core. His hermitage on Lotho Minor, his lessons on Unbara, his restoration by Mother Talzin, and his training of Savage had all strengthened him, made him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power.
But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious.''
Source: Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

Which is why Sidious considered Maul as a ''rival'', and he personally went Mandalore to challenge him.



He even kicked Sidious.

Kyle Katarn has no business in this list as he is not canon, and he is no where near close to tier 8 fighters.
Grievous is a droid, who doesn't even have the Force. He is even below Ventress, even the director confirmed it. You are putting Grievous over a Sith Lord like Maul, who would fodderize him with ease, as he did before in the Clone Wars. Grievous also lost to people like Ventress and Kit Fisto before, they are all weaker than Maul.

They already told us Kit Fisto is tier 7, while Maul, Dooku and RotS Kenobi are tier 8. There is a big difference. Maul is clearly better than Dooku as well, but they are probably same level. And Ahsoka is clearly weaker than Maul, just read the above message, I already proved it twice.

Savage Opress also beat Plo Koon before, yet you are putting Plo Koon so above. He has no business with being equal to tier 8 fighters like Maul, Dooku and RotS Kenobi. Shaak Ti also has no business with being at tier 8. And RotJ Luke wasn't even a Jedi until he faced Vader, Vader would easily beat him if he wasn't in conflict. RotJ Luke is not equal to tier 8 fighters as well. RotJ Luke is probably TPM/AotC Kenobi and Ahsoka level at best.

 

On the contrary @Erkan12, Ahsoka is one of the best sources for Anakin's combat prowess, as she has constantly seen him fly into action, constantly trains and spars with him. Sure she may highball Anakin however Dave Filoni wouldn't allow a quote like that in the show unless there was some truth behind it. And let's face it ROTS Anakin would beat this version of Maul, he's unbalanced and his arrogance would get him killed 7 out of 10 times. Now I know what you're thinking "Isn't ROTS Anakin arrogant too?" Yes, he is, but this is Anakin at his very best, Anakin is the strongest he's ever been until Classic trilogy Vader where he is 20% less than Sidious.

"Vader is "Maybe 20% less powerful than Sidious" - George Lucas

You prove my point. Maul wasn't at his best in this fight and if Anakin fought him on Mandalore, Maul would die case closed.

There are lots of ways to get stronger in Star Wars; does it mean through the force, his martial skill, or his influence. However seeing as Maul's organization the "Shadow Collective," was becoming a major player in the galaxy I would say that he became more powerful thanks to his influence. Not to mention that one of the strongest Dark Side users Mother Talzin (Palpatine's true rival) was actively supporting him. His connection to the force was greater than ever that is true however that doesn't necessarily mean that they get "stronger." All this did for Maul was make him angrier, thus making him more unbalanced, thus making him less of a tactician in combat and more of a berserker, thus robbing Maul of what made him so effective against Qui-Gon, his analytical mind in combat.

In fact, if you want to really technical about the reason Qui-Gon lost to Maul. It was due to three factors. Qui-Gon's old age, Qui-Gon's lightsaber form, and Darth Maul's analytical mind in combat.


''His Sith training allowed him to spot weaknesses of character or constitution in each of the various beings he passed. He drew on his darkside instincts to guide him to the best means of carrying out his mission.'' - Source: Darth Maul - Saboteur (2001)

Due to Qui-Gon's stubborn nature, he still relied on form 4 ataru despite the fact that he was no longer a young man. In fact, Qui-Gon could match Maul beat for beat until he got tired , Maul noticed this and on their 2nd fight, he led Qui-Gon into an enclosed space with no escape and no room for acrobatics. And this is all due to Maul's focused mind, which he lost in TCW!

Maul was not his real rival. Palpatine is demonstrating to Maul that if he is not apart of the rule of two then he is an enemy. Besides Maul was nothing more than a pawn, Palpatine's true goal was Mother Talzin.

Oh my god. That is soooooooooo amazing!!!! Nevermind the fact that Maul was being ragdolled for most of the fight and had performed worse than Windu did before his amp. This ONE kick makes Maul S++++++++ ULTRA tier, lol get real.

Bro, so am I not allowed to post non canon characters who were canon for 10+ years now or something. You got something against the EU in general huh? This is my tier list and it reflects my understanding of star wars lore which I am quickly learning is vaster than yours. I even included sequel characters for goodness sake. Kyle Katarn is a beast and the best Jedi Battlemaster in the entire history of the order. Kyle Katarn has a kill count that would make Battle master Hoth blush. Do you even know who Lord Hoth is btw???

Kyle Katarn survives being stabbed in the chest by a lightsaber:

Caedus felt a rush of satisfaction, enjoyment, as Katarn's expression turned from one of surprise to pain. Katarn looked down to see Caedus's lightsaber buried to its hilt in his chest.

A noise, something halfway between a groan and a death rattle, emerged from Katarn's lips. Smiling, Caedus yanked his lightsaber free and let the stricken Jedi Master fall face-first on the pavement. - Source: Legacy of the Force: Fury

As a Battlemaster, Kyle Katarn has knowledge and, to various degrees, mastery in all possible forms of lightsaber combat and is the major dueling instructor of the Jedi Order. - Source: The Jedi Path.

Kyle Katarn, despite lacking much formal training in combat and the Force, has managed to defeat the Seven Dark Jedi(Yun, Pic, Gorc, Maw, Sariss, Boc Aseca and Jerec) in combat, defeating them one-by-one. - Source: Star Wars Dark Forces 2

For three games Kyle has taken on hordes of Dark Jedi, Mercenaries, and Stormtroopers. Sometimes all three at the same time!!!

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/foru...-respect-thread-updated-and-expanded-2075921/

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/wollfmyth209/blog/kyle-katarn-respect-thread/125826/

*Sighs*
Obviously someone doesn't read other people's posts before they start attacking them. I have two versions of Grevious on my list. The one in A+ tier is legends Grevious the one that pressured MACE WINDU in lightsaber combat.


"Without pausing, Grievous drew two lightsabers from inside his billowing cloak. By the time they were ignited, Mace was already on and all over the cyborg, batting away at the two blades, swinging low at Grievous's artificial legs, thrusting at his skeletal face.

The lightsabers thrummed and hissed, meeting one another in bursts of dazzling light. In a corner of Mace's mind he wondered to which Jedi Grievous's blades had belonged. Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long. Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries.

As Mace already knew from Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti, Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. He could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing.

But he didn't know Vaapad-the technique of dark flirtation in which Mace excelled.

-

The loss of his confederates was noted by whatever computers were slaved to Grievous's organic brain, but the loss neither distracted nor slowed him. His sole setting was attack. Successful at analysing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts.

The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary.

Crouching low, he angled the blade downward and slashed, guiding it through the roof of the car, perpendicular to Grievous's stalwart advance." - Source: Labryninth of Evil

Honestly your boy Maul would've lost to this version of Grevious. As Maul's lightsaber form would get him killed against this version of Grevious. As Juyo required you give everything to offense while leaving nothing but your instincts in terms of defense. This is okay because even Anakin probably would've gotten killed against this version of Grievous.

Nick Gillard must be your god or something because you keep posting his tiers like they actually mean something when he's contradicted himself multiple times and the canon and legends work potray these characters wayyyy differently. As there is no way Kit Fisto the order's definitive master in form 1 was on the same tier as padawan Kenobi who was talented yes but merely a standard prequel Jedi knight level duelist. You should only refer to quotes by the creators if they don't contradict what shows in the movies, books, video games, and comics. Cin Drallig is supposed to be Nick Gillard if he was a Jedi yet he was a scrub of a Jedi master until you count the episode 3 video game.

Everyone and their mom knows season 7 Ahsoka was weaker than Maul lol.

I find it ironic that you as a Darth Maul fan brought up this point. Should I disregard Maul's skill every time he got embarrassed by someone weaker than him?

I know the comic you are talking about, yes Plo Koon lost but he was beating Savage until the hulking Dathomirian snatched off Koon's face mask in desperation.

Plus Plo Koon was distracted as he tried to save a clone trooper from death (which he did fail to do.) - Source: The Clone Wars - The Sith Hunters

Yes he does, your boy Maul considers Plo Koon a worthy combatant and he wants to have the privilege of fighting him.


He longed to battle one of the truly great Jedi warriors: Plo Koon, perhaps, or Mace Windu. That would be a true test of his skill.

—Star Wars: Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter


Shaak ti is an amazing force wielder too. Her presence alone turned Felucia into a light side nexus.

Kota leaned closer. "Don't be overconfident, boy. Felucia is a world finely balanced between the light and dark sides of the Force. Shaak Ti was the only thing keeping it from being consumed by darkness. If anything's happened to her, your experience in the hut will seem like a bad dream in comparison." - The Force unleashed novel.

I agree that ROTJ Luke was not Vaders equal in lightsaber combat however this is really low-balling ROTJ Luke. ROTJ Luke was an absolute beast, by ROTJ he had mastered form 1, form 3, form 4, and form 5. This level of mastery far outstrips TPM/ AOTC Kenobi and TCW Ahsoka. As both pre-ROTS Kenobi and TCW Ahsoka were barley masters of their own forms. While Luke had already hybridized his form, a sign of a true master.

TPM/ AOTC Kenobi and TCW Ahsoka would simply be no match for classic trilogy Vader. As Vader at this point is comparable to Clone wars Jedi master Yoda.



- Sources: Star Wars head to head

And even he was astonished by Luke's strength and agility, of course, he was holding back every time however Luke would always manage to tag Vader in their encounters.



If I was to rank ESB Luke on my tier list he would be listed as a B. He shared the same prodigious physicality as his father Anakin when he was a Padawan.



https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/luke-skywalker-1872/canon-luke-respect-thread-1682724/

Now that I've ripped apart your argument I'm gonna go to bed lol.

 

If Ahsoka is the best source, then she shouldn't be blind about Anakin. I literally proved why she isn't the best source, you are saying she is the best source. Why she isn't?

- Maul said Anakin will join the dark side and join Sidious
- Ahsoka said ''I know Anakin, your vision is flawed.''

So whose vision was flawed? Ahsoka's. So who was right? Maul. He said Ahsoka had Obi-Wan's ''arrogance'', she was arrogant about Anakin. Which is why Anakin lost to Obi-Wan as well, and Ahsoka failed about Anakin as well.

So you can't take her words as a fact when it was proven that she is wrong about Anakin. LOL.

And it was also irrelevant to throw that video around, as I never said Maul would beat Anakin, although he could give a better fight than Dooku did. That's irrelevant. Maul could only win against Anakin if he fought with a strategic thinking like Obi-Wan did.

Your point doesn't exist, as I never said Maul would beat Anakin, in your illogical tier list, Dooku is at the top alongside with Anakin, even though Anakin stomped Dooku, and easily destroyed him. Then you are throwing a video Ahsoka saying Anakin beats Maul, is that suppose to prove Dooku > Maul? Anakin already destroyed Dooku with ease, how is he defeating Maul would prove anything? And why would anyone believe Ahsoka's words about Anakin when she was proven to be wrong by Maul? LOL.

Again, I really don't understand what you are talking about.

The source is there, you are talking about ''ripped apart your argument'' but you don't even read what it is saying. The source saying that Maul has grown more powerful since Episode I. Which ''ripped apart your argument'' about Maul being weaker.

Also, all forms have weaknesses, Maul can spot any of them, it's not special to Qui-Gon at all. I just showed that Dooku was weak against Savage, what makes you think Maul wouldn't spot that weakness? He would.

And you are still talking about non-canon legends, Qui-Gon was not old in the canon. He was 48 years old in the canon, and he was in his prime.

''The Sith Lord attacked Obi-Wan relentlessly, backing him around the melting pit. All Obi-Wan's efforts could not break through his guard. And Obi-Wan was tiring, while his opponent seemed as fresh as ever. The Sith Lord was on him before he could recover his balance. With a mighty stroke, the Sith knocked the young Jedi into the melting pit.''
Source: Star Wars Episode I - The Phantom Menace Jr. Novelization (1999)

Kenobi was also tired against Maul after some point, are you going to say Kenobi was ''old'' too?

It has nothing to do with age, it has related to skill to tire your opponent.

Ok, I guess we should listen to you, not the actual canon TV show now? Sidious says he has become a rival, while you are making up excuses.

Considering Kit Fisto died in 3 seconds against the same guy, which you put that guy on the same level with Maul, yes that's very impressive and it proves that Kit Fisto has no business with being on the same level with Maul.

Since this is PT forum, non-canon legends characters has no business in here. Even if they have a business, you shouldn't put them above important canon characters such as Kenobi or Maul, in what world they should be a rival to the most important and powerful canon characters in Star Wars? It's kind of disrespectful to the canon main characters. There is a reason why they are non-canon, because they have no place in the actual canon, if they had a businees, they would be weaker than the most powerful canon characters, you can't come up with a legends non-canon character, and put him above one of the most powerful canon characters in Star Wars.

Nonsense. I already showed you Maul could handle Windu + Aayla Secura at the same time, you are showing me an inferior feat like soloing Windu, and telling me that Maul couldn't do the same. Not to mention, Windu had to use the Force to balance himself during the fight, because they were fighting on a roof where droid Grievous had an advantage of using magnetism. Still Grievous couldn't do anything to Windu.

Nick Gillard definitely knows better than most when it comes to lightsaber duels, and definitely I can tell you that you don't know as much as I have, so you should definitely listen that guy, who directed the PT duels. It's not some non-canon legends source, he knows how the movie duels worked, because he directed all of them in PT.

Kenobi already completed his training, so calling him padawan wouldn't be true, and Kit Fisto didn't do anything to reach above ''standard prequel Jedi knight level duelist'' as he died against Sidious in 3 seconds and he was part of the B-Team. Not to mention, Kit Fisto's form is the worst dueling form of all lightsaber forms, Form I (Shii-cho) is simply not suitable for lightsaber duels, so he is definitey not above tier 7.



''Form I does not address the lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat.''
---The Essential Guide to the Force

So Maul wanting to ''test'' his skills against Plo Koon means Plo Koon is at the same level with Maul? What? LOL.

Maul would test his skills, and he would beat the guy, no where it says Plo Koon should be around Maul's level, your arguments doesn't make any sense.

You are disregarding Maul's skills, which is why you are putting him on the same level with people like Ahsoka, Kit Fisto, Plo Koon and Shaak Ti, which I find hilarious. None of them has any duelings feats close to Maul, and the directors clearly said Maul > Kit Fisto, and we know Kit Fisto dies in 3 seconds against the guy who Maul kicked, and you are putting him on a same level with Kit Fisto.

Plo Koon lost it to Savage, even when Clone troopers were helping him, we know Maul > Savage, and you are putting Plo Koon at the same level with Maul and you are telling me you are not disregarding Maul's skills. All you did was ripping apart your own arguments on your own. It makes no sense at all.

 

@Erkan12 lol you're terrible at this. I'm literally dismantling your arguments. The only thing you can do is insult me and my preferences.

You low-balled that your boy Maul even viewed Plo Koon as highly skilled and a worthy adversary. Lame.

Darth Maul has gotten embarrassed by lower-level opponents before such as a blinded Kanan, TPM Kenobi, and Season 7 Ahsoka. (Canon)

So should his overall skill be called into question like you're doing for Plo Koon?

Plo Koon is the only Jedi to beat Yoda in a sparring contest (Canon)



Plo Koon beat Asajj Ventress with a broken arm.


Source: The service of the republic series


And Koon losing to Savage only highlights the tactical failings of his antiquated morality system that his race is known for and his care for the well beings of his clones as he was kicking Savage's ass before he lost. Honestly, the clone troopers were more hindrance than help. (Canon)

"Like many of his kind, Koon had a strong sense of justice. His species tended to see issues in black and white, and favored what was termed "rough justice", a method of solving disputes that, to non-Kel Dor, seemed overly retributive and too close to vigilantism. In his youth, Koon's Master Tyvokka said that he was "humble, polite, stubborn and difficult". - starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Plo_Koon/Legends#Personality_and_traits

Once again the love for his clones was his downfall. (Canon)

"During the Clone Wars, General Plo Koon developed an affinity for the clone troopers under his command and often stated how their lives meant more to him than completing a mission. For instance, he questioned Sergeant Sinker about why he had no hope of being rescued. When the clone replied that it was because all clones were created to be an expendable product, General Koon firmly stated "not to me" thus showing that he felt a degree of compassion for the clones, which was unfortunately partly responsible for his death when the clones followed Order 66 and killed him". - starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Plo_Koon/Legends#Personality_and_traits

Kit Fisto elevated form 1 to the point where it was effective in single combat. Even AOTC Kenobi was no match for him so TPM Kenobi was certainly not an equal.(Canon)

"Obi-Wan and Kit had been engaged for an hour now, each seeking holes in the other’s defense. Obi-Wan swiftly discovered that Kit was the better swordfighter, astonishingly aggressive and intuitive in comparison with Obi-Wan’s more measured style. But the Nautolan gave himself deliberate disadvantages, hampered himself in terms of balance, limited his speed, emphasized his nondominant side to force himself to full attention, the kind of full attention that can be best accessed only when life itself is at risk. To relax and feel the flow of the Force under such stress was the true road to mastery.

For hours the two danced without music, at first falling into a preplanned series of moves and countermoves learned in the Temple under Master Yoda’s tutelage. As they grew more accustomed to each other’s rhythms, they progressed into a flowing web of spontaneous engagement. Slowly, minute by minute, they increased pace, stuttered the rhythm, increasing the acuteness of attack angles and beginning to utilize feints and distractions, binds, rapid changes in level, and to introduce random environmental elements into the interaction:, furniture, walls, slippery floors. To an observer it would have seemed that the two were trying to slaughter each other, but the two knew that they were engaged in the most profound and enjoyable aspect of Jedi play, lightsaber flow."

Source: -The Cestus Deception


Both Maul and Fisto got wrecked by Sidious with the same amount of ease. In fact in the ROTS novelization, it provides a more sensible re-enactment of their deaths (Canon)

Sidious used deception to insta-kill Saesee Tinn, and Agen Kolar. And as for Kit Fisto, he managed to last a while however he died due to him sensing Anakin Skywalker's presence. Meanwhile, Sidious never had the intention of killing Maul. As I keep telling you Maul was bait for mother Talzin lol.







Lol and I never said that Kit Fisto was better than Maul I only said he was better competition for Maul than Mace lol and I stand by that too. This is how their fight would play out.

As I keep saying it will be a long bloody fight but Mace will dismantle Maul using his martial skill and shatterpoint.

That wasn't a feat lol Maul just smacked Aayla, blew up the station, and ran away. So much for a fight lol. Mace and Maul didn't even clash once. What a weak point.

Yet Legends Grievous acclimated to Vaapad and it spooked Windu, causing him to want to end the fight quickly. *Yawn* Next point please.

Bruh we're not talking about Ahsoka's grasp on Anakin's character, we are talking about lightsaber skills, and once again you are trying to redirect the conversation.

As far as lightsaber skills go Ahsoka was right on the money.

Who died and made you sheriff of these forums lol. I am free to use any non canon characters I want. And I am free to compare different characters using whatever canon and non-canon materials to. Honestly, your low-key a tyrant, throwing out my interpretation because it's "Non-Canon," that's an elitist point of view and it's limiting as there many gaps in canon that are only filled by legends and disney intends to keep it that way. It's as they say, there are always truth in legends.


Maul is a shadow of his former self. (Canon)

Lol says the guy who doesn't even know who lord Hoth is, give me a source that directly links to his quotes on these subjects, because I see a lot of talking but I don't see any sourcing. As I already pulled a source that contradicts him.

Lol, there is nothing illogical about my tier list you just don't like it because Maul isn't at the top. Instead, he is right where he belongs. I can literally prove everyone's positioning on that tier list. As Dooku is higher than Maul simply due to the fact that Maul's force abilities are a tier down from Dooku's and when in doubt Dooku will just sith lightning it out, and Anakin and Dooku were evenly matched, like I keep saying, however, Dooku only lost because Anakin's utter mastery of form V became a mismatch for Dooku's utter master of form 2.

In fact, your credibility is in question as this is not the first time you tried to mislead and redirect people from the truth.

Someone's been naughty. You're actively referencing an author who doesn't care about the combat prowess of the characters and sees fights as meaningless and circumstantial in order to prop up Maul. Just hoping that would've slipped by me, didn't you?

Source: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/mace-windu-vs-darth-maul-536249/?page=6

 

Addendum: @Erkan12

Maul is a shadow of his former self. (Canon)

Yes, they are on the same tier, and yes they do have similar combat feats you just refuse to look. I have proven how Kit Fisto and Plo Koon were, now it's time for Shaak Ti.

Shaak Ti is a peer to Dooku in terms of lightsaber combat.

"Shaak Ti is a Master of Makashi and Ataru forms in addition to her legendary strength in the Force. Known far and wide as a cunning and serene Jedi, only the most skilled of the Order could stand against her!"- Source: The Clone Wars Adventures

"There is an understated elegance in Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber technique, one that is quite unlike the feel one might get from great swordbeings of the Jedi Order. He lack entirely the flash, the pure bold elan of an Anakin Skywalker; there is no where in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda could become."- Source: Revenge of the Sith novelisation

No, it didn't, you didn't read my reply. I said he was stronger in the force however that made him a being of pure hatred. Ever since his return Maul has had some embarrassing losses that TPM Maul wouldn't have had. TPM Maul's loss TPM Kenobi was a once in a blue moon event while TCW Maul's embarassing losses were more common.
Yes, Maul is stronger in the force, however, this came at the cost of Darth Maul's analytical mind. Post-TPM Maul has never shown the combat tacticalbillity that TPM Maul has shown.

 

Where did I insult you? I know you just signed in this forum yesterday, but you should really read what other people are writing and posting. I wouldn't be in here if I insult people. There are rules. So you shouldn't lie about this.

- He never said Plo Koon is a worthy adversary. He said he will test his skills against him. He never said Plo Koon is equal to him, wanting to test his skills doesn't make him a worthy adversary, LOL.
- That's also non-canon. Plo Koon doesn't even have anything to suggest that he is a top level duelist in canon. Yet you are putting him on a same level with top tier fighters like Maul for no reason at all. And even after I told you Maul's apprentice Savage Opress defeated that guy you still don't care, he isn't even equal to Savage Opress, let alone Maul. That's being biased.

Except all of these people confirmed to be weaker than Maul. Maul lost it for the same reason why Sidious lost it to one-handed Vader and Rey. By using your logic, Sidious = One handed Vader and Rey,

If this is your criteria, then Sidious shouldn't be on the top of your list. But Sidious is on your top of your list.

So now you are using Youtube videos to prove your point?

- Plo Koon never defeated Yoda in Canon. That Video is literally lying, and you are believing it.
- Plo Koon never defeated Yoda in any source.

I've no idea where this misinformation is coming from. I didn't see a single source in that video.

Even this shows that you should listen people who knows Star Wars enough, instead you are posting Youtube videos, the same guy who has that youtube channel has been proven to be wrong many times, for example, that guy youtuber didn't even know Ahsoka was 17 years old, he said she was 15 years, you are posting that guy's videos as if he knows about Star Wars. That youtuber is all about click baits.

Again, you are spreading misinformation.

Plo Koon never defeated Ventress in this non-canon, legends fight. But we know Savage Opress defeated Plo Koon, even when Plo Koon had help from Clone troopers.

Clones were definitely not hindrance, I don't know what you are talking about. Clones were the reason the death of many Jedi, and clearly you don't know that the sheer numbers can defeat the Jedi.

https://boards.theforce.net/threads/the-jedi-without-the-clone-army.50054877/

Obviously, you weren't watching AotC.

Again, you don't know what Canon really is.

Cestus Deception Novel is not Canon. I've no idea what you are talking about, you should listen people who knows Star Wars instead of acting like this.

Kit Fisto did nothing to prove that he is better than Kenobi in the Canon. As I said, he died in 3 seconds against Sidious, the guy who Maul kicked.

Sidious had the intention of killing Maul.

''Maul had fought his Master many times, starting when he was little more than a child and continuing through his apprenticeship. His body bore innumerable scars from those duels—lessons in the peril of being too slow or too quick, too weak or too distracted. During Maul’s apprenticeship he had always known that Sidious had been willing to kill him. The Sith had not survived their centuries of exile by being sentimental, and a student who couldn’t stand against his Master in a mere training exercise was worse than useless—he was a waste of valuable resources better used elsewhere. But Maul had never faced his Master when he was actually trying to kill him.
Maul had grown more powerful since the last time he’d been in Sidious’s presence, before the Neimoidian invasion of Naboo had turned disastrous and Obi-Wan had bested him inside the Theed power core. His hermitage on Lotho Minor, his lessons on Unbara, his restoration by Mother Talzin, and his training of Savage had all strengthened him, made him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power.
But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious.''
Source: Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

See?

So when Grievous temporarily holds his own against Windu on the roof top by using magnetism, you don't say ''Mace will dismantle Grievous'', but I see you are saying that for Maul? Double standards. You just throwed that non-canon legends source to hype Grievous, as if that proves Grievous is stronger than Maul but you don't accept Maul's better feat against Windu + Aayla Secura in the canon? It doesn't make any sense.

Maul literally said Mace Windu + Aayla Secura is a ''fair fight'', since you like this things like when you hype Plo Koon over a non-canon source, this should be better. Maul sees Mace Windu + Aayla Secura as a fair fight in the canon. You should use this to hype Maul if you are objective, not that Plo Koon thing which is non-canon.

Again, what's that suppose to prove? Anakin destroyed Dooku easily, and in your list Dooku ranks above Maul. How is Anakin destroying Maul easily would help your argument even IF we accept that extremely biased and blinded Anakin fanboy Ahsoka's statement?

If statements are too important for you then Maul said Mace Windu + Aayla Secura is a fair fight for him, and he said Grievous is no match for Maul in the canon. Since you are taking these statements too seriously, then you should agree with this that Maul = Mace Windu + Aayla Secura, and Maul > Grievous.

As well as Sidious said Maul has become a ''rival'' for him, but of course you are not accepting these statements as well.

There are different forums in here for a reason, and if we are going to talk about non-canon legends stuff, then Extended Universe forums would be the right place, not the PT canon forums. We should be able to separate simple things such as this.

I just proved Maul has grown even stronger in the Clone Wars, even Savage Opress admitted that after losing to him, he said has grown so powerful. Savage Opress is the guy who Dooku considers as a ''threat''.

Since you are also taking these statements too seriously as we've seen from your Plo Koon and Ahsoka, you should also take these statements seriously. Dooku considers Savage Opress as a threat to himself,





And Savage says Maul has grown ''so powerful'' in the Clone Wars after being defeated by him.



But you still think Dooku is above Maul in your list.

Now are you posting other people from other forums? That guy has been debunked many times, that he was so desperate that he went to twitter to fight with Matt Martin about this, he thinks he knows better than the Lucasfilm officials, it looks like you also think you know better than them as well?





Also another double standard is, he accepts that when Dave Filoni says Sidious in undefeatable when Sidious fights Maul, right here;

"Well, that was definitely one of our biggest challenges, Maul and Savage versus Sidious, because we wanted to have an epic lightsaber fight. We hadn’t really had a big one in awhile, and I really thought this is our chance to show everyone why Sidious is the Sith Lord. Why no one can compete with this guy."
-- Dave Filoni

It's in your post, he uses this to prove that Maul wasn't a match for Sidious, because Filoni says ''no one compete with Sidious'', then he goes says that Windu defeated the guy. Do you see the contradiction? You either don't know what ''no one can compete with Sidious'', doesn't apply to Windu? Obviously, when he says ''no one'' that includes Windu and Yoda as well, but then he goes and says Windu defeated Sidious. Two different behaviours against two different people.

Basically;
- When Maul fights Sidious, he uses a quote says ''no one'' can compete Sidious
- When Windu fights Sidious, he thinks Windu defeats Sidious just fine without any temporary and momentary power ups.

A huge double standard, which is why he goes far enough to fight with people like Matt Martin on twitter.

Then if we are going to listen Dave Filoni, he doesn't listen when Filoni says this;

Dave Filoni: "You know, getting taken out by Sidious is pretty good, ranks up there. He puts up a better fight than the Jedi Council did, I'll say that much for him."
Source: Starwars.com/video/wrath-of-the-sith

Of course, when it come to this, you don't listen Filoni right? He literally says Savage Opress > Jedi council (Kit Fisto), but you don't listen this when it doesn't suit your purpose. You only listen him when he says no one competes with Sidious.

You also don't listen when he says Maul + Ahsoka could beat Sidious.

Dave Filoni: ''There is an opportunity there to take up on his offer, you know what, together they could eliminate Sidious, so you're talking about the lesser of evils.''
Source: Clone Wars Download: "The Phantom Apprentice" (2020)

These are invalid if it's related to Maul, but it's valid when it comes to Mace Windu. Double standards.

Now you are posting another baseless Youtube video?

I just proved why Maul has grown more powerful in the Clone Wars. And no where in that quote says Shaak Ti is equal to Dooku, LOL.

Maul didn't use his Force powers to defeat Savage Opress, Savage Opress is talking about Maul's combat skills and he says Maul has grown ''so powerful'', this is another baseless claim to say that Maul has grown more powerful in the Force, but his combat skills weakened? Totally baseless.

The director specifically said Maul does the same mistake against Ahsoka as he did against Kenobi in Episode I. He literally says it's the same, you really are listening to the people who knows this stuff.



''Part of Maul's character he underestimates his opponent.''

Maul's character didn't change since Episode I. He underestimated Kenobi, just like he underestimated Ahsoka, and blinded Kanan. They say it's part of his character, you don't change his character.

Maul clearly has better combat and Force feats in the Clone Wars. Such as defeating Kenobi, Ventress, Savage Opress etc. And the Force ability is also connected to your combat skills as a Jedi and as a Sith, you can't separate things like this, to say that his Force powers has grown but combat skills got weakened, LOL.

 

@Erkan12 It was obviously a rhetorical question lol. That went right over your head, didn't it.

Uh okay, so one of the best duelists in the era wanting to fight with another top duelist to test his skill. If that is not the definition of a worth adversary I don't what is.

That's hypocritical, you literally quoted Yoda Dark rendevous earlier a "Non-canon" book to demonstrate Yoda's supremacy.

1. Mace ONE SHOTED Legends Grevious during the raid Corusant!? Mace definitely has the ability to dismantle Grevious however...
2. In a lightsaber duel, yes Legends Grevious could beat Mace. That's why Mace used the force instead.
3. Legends Grevious has the countermeasures to defend against the force he just didn't this time because he was defending the ship.
4. Mace vs Legends Grevious is literally a 5/10 matchup, it could go either way.
5. You do know in my tier list it's possible for someone in a lower tier to beat someone in a higher tier consistently because of their skillset right? For instance.....



Savage Opress would probably beat Plo 7/10 times, not because he's more skilled, nor because he's more powerful in the force. It's simply because Plo is rigid and honorable like a Samurai while Savage is ruthless and underhanded like a mongol.



Don't watch the full thing, just watch till Khotun Khan sets fire to the samurai.

So that'll be the matchup between Plo Koon and Savage, Koon is simply too honorable for his own good.

See in my tier list I rate people on their overall skill and tactical mind. That's why I make a distinction between TPM Maul and TCW Maul because their skill sets are wired differently.



Evannova95 is a notable Star wars versus YouTuber, he compiles months of research and analyzes the books and animation that each character appeared in. Each source is credited and proven in his videos by word or by picture. He has been doing this for 6 years. So he is not just a random Youtuber. This video is a 1-hour analysis that I wholeheartedly agree with.

As it explains Maul's increased strength yet also explains why he suffers more embarrassing losses than TPM Maul.

Hmm, but I thought you said that I'm taking the Ahsoka's quote too seriously because she's an Anakin stan. Despite the fact that her view of Anakin's skill was common amongst the Jedi.



(Plo Koon considering it an honor to spar against Anakin.)

(Also this is where the notion of Plo Koon besting Yoda came from.)

(The game is Star Wars: The Clone Wars – Lightsaber Duels and it is indeed canon.)

So why should I take Maul's quote here seriously when his most constant character trait and weakness that you and the video you linked said was his underestimation of characters.

Plo disarms her of one of her blades and thwarts her plans, all with a broken arm. That is a victory.

Yep.

No, I believe that the author is dead unless it is backed up by works. So I do believe that both Mace, the Jedi council, Maul and Opress all stood no chance against Sidious.

That is true except for Kit Fisto, as Kit fisto put up the same amount of fight as Savage.

Honestly using Sidious stomping to gauge his victim's strength is stupid we're running in circles as Sidious killed everyone except Mace with the same amount of ease.

I do, statements from Dooku regarding another character's strength is highly insightful. I never said that Savage is weak.

Hmmm, okay sure I'm willing to learn, are you willing to teach? I've been having lots of fun with this conversation so far, I LOVE talking and arguing about star wars and honestly, I've learned a lot about this site just from doing this with you and I am eager to learn more.

I am ultimately a student of the force and this interaction has opened my eyes, you're crazy good at debates. So here's the deal I want to have more fun on here and keep interacting with you, essentially what I'm proposing is you mentoring me. I have high amounts of respect for your Darth Maul threads, your debate skills, and I want to accomplish everything you accomplished. Together we would take over the galaxy lol