ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

I suspect that originally, before Fisher’s passing, Leia was meant to survive the trilogy and see his redemption. Everything prior was meant to make it seem like he was too far gone to ever change and highlight his evil so that his redemptive arc was harder to predict.

 

Did he order her death though? he blasted the door open and walked in with troopers to find them all gone. do we know if he was just gonna go in guns blazing?

The only way people wouldn't find issues with this though is if someone said yeah but he would have sensed his mother and be like lets leave them alone so my mother isn't hurt... which is not a bad guy thing to do. and is abit of a weakness in bad guy circles right there. lets just keep leia around Kylo will not dare hurt her.

 

If he suspects she’s alive, he knows she’s on that base. He’s Supreme Leader and he fired on the base with a mini Death Star. Sounds like he ordered her death. She just escaped again

 

He said no surrender and no prisoners before entering but there’s no indication he knows that Leia is in there. No cross cut shot of the two prior like there was on the bridge.

He did lead the entry and could have made an exemption.


What he says he wants and does are sometimes not one in the same. I’m sure he talked tough about the prisoner Rey being some big victory knowing full well he was going to try and kill Snoke and propose to her to be his Empress.

He’s the boss there. He could pull an audible as he did before if he saw her.

 

No it's not okay. Absolutely no one thinks it's okay or demonstrative of Anakin loving Padme. Anakin was evil and gross and disgusting and the unsympathetic villain during that whole sequence.

Right the only options are Kylo thought she was dead and didn’t GAF or he knew she was alive and he ordered her death.

 

Exactly. Like my defense of TLJ Kylo is predicated on that dynamic being a toxic one in which he is using her for his own emotional wellbeing and the end result is for good slamming the door on him. It cannot work at all if he "changed" for Rey or even will change. It is a narrative double beat, and/or contradicts worked in TLJ......or didn't work if one disagrees that it was executed poorly but I think yinz generally agree that if the intent is he was always being toxic and manipulative that is better than not in that film.

And with incels, it is literally in the name "involuntary", they legit think that this is not a choice but a conspiracy against themselves. It is all about a perception of what one "deserves"

Yeah and Truce at Bakura even calls that out

 

I'm always baffled by this sentiment. What in the Lord was likable about Anakin in AOTC and ROTS? He was a whiny, creepy, violent, fascist-sympathizing brat, in my view. Takes all kinds, I guess.

 

I like kid Anakin in TPM. I don’t find later Anakin likable, but I at least find him interesting, which is a crap ton more than I can say for Kylo.

 

So you're simultaneously blaming Kylo's bad decisions on metal health while claiming he can just snap out of his mental health problems any time he wants to? Or are you saying our protagonist is mentally ill?

Wtf? I know you live by a giant imaginary scoreboard, but really? We don't make comments that disagree with you to collect likes, we make them because they are true and some of the stuff said here is just too ridiculous to not respond to.

Or, to put it in Reylo terms, #relationshipgoals

 

He choked her because he loved her so much he couldn't stand the thought that she was doing dirty things with Obi in his mind. It's because Anakin and Padme had such a deep connection.

 

You would need to compare anakin after he turns to Kylo. you can't compare Clone Wars Anakin to Kylo. as to young Ben thats not been revealed yet.

 

I have no problem comparing movie, adult Anakin to Kylo. Movie adult Anakin is interesting with a sympathetic story and I understand his motivations. Kylo is not interesting. There's nothing sympathetic about him. To the extent that I've seen his motives, they're pathetic.

 

He was genuinely a good kid in TPM, he went out of his way to help complete strangers at the risk of his own life. AOTC at least had the fun chase sequence at the start with the banter/teamwork between him and Obi-Wan. Similar stuff at the start of ROTS, then him reuniting with Padme and reassuring her about their lives together was their sweetest moment in the films.

Even when he was being an idiot, there was genuine conflict and hesitation in his actions, and in most cases he tried as hard as he could to do the right thing and obey his masters.

 

Exactly.

TCW was not the movies and 90% of general audiences (if not more) are not familiar with that portrayal. All of that came after the films to flesh Anakin out more while Ben has not received the same chance.

 

Vader was at least a competent leader who was entertaining to watch. He wasn't just causing wanton violence every second he was on-screen like Kylo "Kill them all and smash literally everything" Ren. Even in the comics, Kylo is explicitly shown obliterating neutral planets simply for coming into contact with the Resistance at all. Not occupying them, blowing them up and killing everyone.

He's learned nothing and not only is he evil, he handles things worse than the Empire by being wasteful and throwing lives away for no reason.

 

Screw it, here's the ultimate Anakin v. Kylo comparison. When Anakin's mother was killed, Anakin cared. He went nuts he cared so much. He would have never considered firing on a ship with her aboard. He would have blown up the TIE that "killed" her on sight.

There's just something about parent murder (of a loving parent at least) that deeply turns my stomach. Dunno, guess that's bizarre in modern SW fandom for some reason that completely escapes me.

 

Here's another ultimate comparison:
Vader couldn't kill his flesh and blood, whereas Kylo did so without a qualm.

 

I don’t think it’s a bizarre at all. As you’ve said yourself, if I’m not mistaken, the number of folks shipping Reylo is relatively small, both compared to the fan base and to the general audience.

 

Sure but this idea that Kylo is equivalent to Anakin is widespread in fans of he ST. It's not just a reylo concept. Kylo's apathy toward his patricide and toward Leia's well being in TLJ is so flipping disturbing to me. It can't be handwaved away with whataboutism to Anakin. If Anakin skewered his mother, I would feel so differently about him.

 

And given what TLJ does with him, taking a lot of time to kill off redemption for him, building on his patricide by having him kill Snoke to become Supreme Leader, bringing in this out of the arse-end of nowhere redemption angle is nuts.

Then there is the whole 'we're going away from the Skywalkers, they don't matter anymore', and now? Oh we're back to Skywalkers and bloodline. If you're going do this kind of crap at least follow through on it instead of this hazy equivocation. If that meant Kylo, as Supreme Leader, dies in ROTS, unmourned and hated, well so be it, Disney. But nope, they didn't have the nerve.

 

I suppose I would agree with that distinction between the two. Though Anakin does attempt to force choke Padme and later as Vader he does tortures Leia, though he is ignorant of the fact that she is his daughter. But from an audience perspective, by the end, we do see Anakin commit some truly horrific acts towards family members.

But I suppose I would agree that Kylo is far beyond Vader.

 

For me, it's not about who is worse - Anakin or Kylo Ren. I just do not find Kylo Ren to be a compelling character. I think he is a badly written remake of his grandfather.