ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

But is he talking about in the film or in the entirety of canon? Because contextually, he is factually talking about the film specifically. It's the same thing as when he said Rey's parents weren't in TFA. He clarified that statement.
"What I meant was that she doesn't discover them in Episode VII. Not that they may not already be in her world."

(And if people (general) would stop making excuses for how Kylo's bad behavior is not that bad and is in fact romantic, this thread would die. I can only speak for myself, but this detractor finds reylo so morally repugnant and utterly indefensible as a story line that I will continue to explain why it's BAD for as long as there are people telling me it's good and should or will happen in RoS. Because Reylo being canon does bad things in the world as far as cumulative normalization and romanticization of abuse and toxic relationships. Basically, reylo being canon net result = bad for society while reylo not being canon net result = neutral or good for society. Seriously, it's like complaining about people advocating to stop child abuse being more obsessed with child abuse than child abusers.)

Cool story, still abusive. You still haven't addressed the other qualities Kylo is lacking, we've agreed Kylo feels compassion for one second, and it kinda doesn't matter if they talk about it as an abusive relationship, it's still abusive. A toxic relationship by any other name is still a toxic relationship. And anyone who believes RJ's sex scene quotation...well, I'm not sure how to say this without getting in trouble so I'll just say nothing in that scene even remotely resembles a sex scene.
Furthermore, RJ has established his primary relationship with the franchise is completely obsessed with subverting expectations and p***ing people off, so it's entirely possible his enthusiasm for reylo is just one more chance to do just that because he knows it's absolutely out of the question. And yes, they have a connection, that has nothing to do with romance and likely everything to do with balancing the force (which is to be done through the chosen one. IOW, Anakin's bloodline).

Yep, connection, see above. Like the connection we see between Luke and Leia at the end of ESB? How'd that romance turn out again?

Yep! There would be no reason to keep so many details hidden unless they all related to each other. Really, we should have gotten alot of significant back story to help the movies along, but we've gotten next to none. Because the backstories for Rey and Kylo and Luke and Han and Leia all intersect somewhere.

Skin to skin? Are you for real? Rey and Finn have more skin to skin time than Rey and Kylo, if you're convinced that means anything. But then again, so did Luke and Leia.

Maybe from Rey not caring that Kylo never answers her question about why he killed Han and forgiving him immediately (for no reason) for something she hated him for yesterday.
Maybe because Chewbacca seems totally okay with helping her in her pathetic plan to save poor wittle Ben when he was totally okay with killing him yesterday (as is fitting) for what he did to Chewie's bff.
Maybe because Luke doesn't address it at all or have any desire to go to his sister in her time of personal need, even ignoring the galactic need bit.
Maybe because we don't see Leia emote about it in a Leia-like way, though I can forgive her character for that iu as she's likely in shock, but I think it was a missed opportunity writing wise. The memorial scene didn't make it to the movie, which might have helped, but it was so oddly written in the novel imo that it's hard to tell.


And yeah, none of those examples demonstrate actual caring about Han.
Are you asking why the sad face at the end of the movie when everyone else he wanted to murder got away? It's because everyone else he wanted to murder got away and he couldn't murder them like he murdered his dad.

And for as gung-ho reylo as RJ presents himself, it's pretty interesting that that didn't make it I to the film. Or a kiss. Or literally anything that's overtly romantic on its own without director commentary. Hmmm, I wonder why? One can hope it's because tptb are intelligent enough not to make trash like reylo canon, even as they're desperate enough to tease it for that sweet reylo money.

MH loves trolling. Seriously, if you take him at his word for that, you also have to take him at his word for saying Rey is his daughter, and that does not help the case for reylo...

 

However, at this point he has seen the hands across the galaxy touch, remember when Luke yells STOP, then kicks Rey off of the island? In that context the pretty eyes makes sense.

when Finn & Rey touched hands did Thunder clap and The Force theme play?

 

Luke never kicked Rey off the island. He told her many time not times not to leave, this wasn’t going to go how she thought.

 

Ooh, look at them smooshing faces together, look at that smile, listen to that music swell!


The Force theme is not a romance theme. And Han and Leia had their own theme together in ESB. Why didn't we get a whimsically titled "The bad boy and the good girl" love theme for TLJ?

 

@ :13 Luke to Rey... Leave this island now! Rey needs to turn in her tiki torch

How many times ....

 

Once more for the people in the back: Being "best friends" is a much better foundation for a relationship than physical violence, abduction, torture, gaslighting etc. I feel sorry for couples who aren't friends.

 

the true sign of a caring man:

"your parents were drunken scum who didn't care about you, you really are worthless piece of **** you know to absolutely everyone who knows ya.....but not to me"

yup,

romantic guy of the year award incoming

OR classic sign of a sociopathic manipulator who Lord Manderstoke would be proud of...

you choose.

 

This is the most off interpretation of a book I've seen - did you actually read the book? The book constantly shows how present Han and Leia are in raising Ben and how Ben is continuously doted on by both of them. He sleeps between them every night (explains why they only have one kid) and Han is the primary caregiver for him but Leia is very present in raising him as well (in every holocall made between Han and Leia Ben is sitting in Leia's lap). The only reason why Han goes off with Lando is because Lando needs him to join him on a mission to save others that are at risk because of a mistake he made. It's stated that this is the first time Han has left the home since Ben was born 2 years ago and Han is shown frequently thinking about how much he misses being away from his family during the book because this is the first time he's been away from them.

The droid thing which has been completely overblown in certain fan circles occurs when Ben is left with the hacked droid for 5 minutes and he isn't even aware that the droid is trying to kill him, the whole scene is shown to show the urgency of Han's mission, it has nothing to do with Ben as he doesn't even know what is going on at the time. He's shown in Leia's lap not five minutes later happily playing with her hair, having no idea that he was almost killed because Han was able to stop the droid. The droid hacked occurred galaxy wide so presumably millions of kids were also being taken care of by droids who were hacked and tried to kill them and didn't go on to become mass murderers.

It may seem weird to us here, but droids playing a role in raising kids is nothing unusual or new in a GFFA. Jyn was raised by a nanny droid in Rebel Rising and Leia was raised by a droid in Princess Leia of Alderaan while her two busy parents worked. Being a good parent doesn't mean you are around your child 24-7 (in fact I would argue that would probably be unhealthy for both the parent and the child). A child being taken care of by a nanny, a baby sitter or a day care while parents work is the experience of the vast majority of parents in today's society. If leaving your kid with a nanny or baby sitter or day care constitutes child neglect then I'd be willing to wager over 95% of the parents in the States would be guilty of child neglect.

 

Ben feels lonely because of his special abilities and his mom literally sends him to a school, run by his loving uncle, that teaches and encourages kids just like him with those same abilities to be able to use them and feel included in society.

His mom sends him to Charles Xaviers school for mutants and he's mad at her for this. All while there are kids there who have run away from parents who probably want nothing to do with their little mutant-force-wonder child and understood even less.

I bet instead of feeling lonely, Ben acts entitled there. "My uncle runs this place, and I'm going to have you expelled" "My grandfather was Anakin Skywalker, so I don't have to do my force homework". "Trust me, it's not easy having parents who financed this school"

 

Just saw it. That 'pretty eyes' line is not sexist. That's garbage.

If Rey were a man and Luke and Kylo women, that line would not be sexist either. Both men and women can behave foolishly for a pair of pretty eyes.

If Luke had made a sexual case for foolishness, in itself a non-sexed trait (for example: 'you opened yourself to Dark Side for a pair of pretty eyes! Women!'), it would have been sexist. But he didnt.

Holdo to Leia in the novel “Leia: Princess of Alderaan”:

This is not sexist, and its still not sexist if you change Holdo for Luke and make Leia a man. Humanoid females for he-Leia.

@JoJoPenelli , you'll like this.



That woman screaming. 'You opened yourself to the dark side for a pair of pretty eyes'

Ben/Kylo: 'Your parents threw you away like garbage[...]But you can't stop needing them. It's your greatest weakness'

Ben/Kylo is talking about himself and his past here, and maybe Luke was doing the same with the 'pretty eyes' line.

Is Luke the Lover another thing Luke the Jedi is bitter about, the more personal side of his failure? After all, he almost failed in the ROTJ throne room after Vader mentioned Leia ('perhaps she will'), and he became Luke the Jedi when he refused to let Luke the Brother to be in control.

 

Yes, in the Visual Dictionary for TFA it says: 'Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy.'

 

That's always how I've seen it too. He finds out about his lineage in Vader, and along the way as a young man he's become disillusioned with the NR and their bureaucracy for whatever reason. All that "I can do better" EpII Anakin type of stuff. Do think they could have capitalized on that as a concept a lot more than they did, along with maybe some outrage at Luke favoring Rey over him, that type of thing.

Overall I'm really happy with the two movies here, but do feel like that was a missed opportunity. Not even to make Ben more "likeable", that's not even an issue for me personally (he's the villain, he doesn't have to be remotely "likeable"), but just as a nice echo back to Anakin, some more of those worst-traits-of-Skywalkers on display.

 

Didn't someone mention "denial" earlier? Like the one who thinks RJ saying "romance" is not the same as in "romantic relationship" or dismissing it as a joke , I think that has to be one of the worst take I've seen in this thread. Another example of creators telling us things as it is but fans always find a way to distort their words.

“[Have Rey’s origins been planned from day one? Or did it change at some point?] Guess it depends when you consider day one. Everything changes. Did you know Luke Skywalker was once a young woman?” (May 1, 2016)

“[My definition of day one is ‘when JJ and Lawrence sat down to write the script’?] On that Day 1? Heck, Finn & Maz weren’t even in the story yet. I’d be surprised if that were the case. They knew who she wasn’t” (May 1, 2016)

So you think Leia had a lost/hidden child which she never even bothered to mention in her memories of good times with Han and Ben in Bloodline? Everything was about her, Han and Ben, no signs of any other child. JJ developed Rey and Kylo's backstory and in this backstory which the other works have to take into account is that Rey never met Leia and Kylo before TFA, no distortion required. Ben Solo's fall to the darkside happened long after she was abandoned on Jakku. Rey's entry in TLJ's Visual Dictionary also mentions that the bond between Rey and Kylo is "powerful" and "gives her insights into Kylo" that not even his own uncle could see. Based on that, we can speculate that Rey and Kylo's connection Rey and Kylo is deeper than simple familial connection. It has something to do with the will of the Force.
From TLJ Ultimate Guide


Yeah, Rey's parents could still be in her world, that doesn't necessarily points to either Han/Leia or Luke/mystery mother. However, it would have been different if we're talking about the early days of development even though the more we learn about it, the more I'm starting to doubt that the young Jedi woman and the Solo sibling were one and the same.

I don't think it was LFL's intent to portray a toxic relationship but fair enough. Kylo is still a villain so I don't expect him to have all those qualities yet but he still could learn if he atones for what he did, even though it's interesting he already has compassion this early in his character arc when TFA was also about the dark side awakening in the villain. Rey definitively have all those qualities though, partly why I don't expect her to just slice his head off because of his past actions in TROS. Though, if we were talking about a grittier franchise with different values when it comes to villains vs. heroes, I would probably have a different perspective.

"The heroes are the ones that are still changing and the villains are locked and petrified into what they are." —Akira Kurosawa

Citation needed.

So you think it's the same kind of connection between Luke and Leia.
I think it portrayed their connection in a much different way than it did for Luke and Leia. Luke was also reaching out to Leia. In Rey and Kylo's case, they didn't seem to have control of when it begins, though they could sever the connection. Kylo, who is trained Force user, also seems surprised by it and didn't understand how and why the Force bridged their mind. It was revealed Snoke was the one to do that, or is it? Because he seemed surprised when it happened in TFA and it did happen again after he died.

And even from TFA



So brotherly/cousinly. Riiiiight.
The Force theme is kinda fitting for theme since they kinda represent the balance. Even though the character themselves doubted it and argued amongst themselves about its meaning, we know the Jedi prophecy referred to Anakin alone, not his descendants. We don't know what is the meaning the Rey and Kylo's connection yet, but we do know both will be crucial to bring balance and maintaining it.

Did we watch the same movie?

Luke said he saw darkness in Ben's mind. Wait a minute, so you think they're related...because we heard similar background sound? That's even more flimsy than I originally thought. It's the same issue that I have in thinking there's a familial connection between characters just because there's parallels. If we use that logic, then you can find evidence anyone is related to another character at any point in the timeline.

It also seems obvious to me. He also referred to GL's treatments as the "starting point" multiple times. I mean, why would PH mention what GL thought in 1983 when he read the actual treatment. in 2008, GL thought episode VI was the still the end of "the tragedy of Darth Vader", he only had a general idea of themes he wanted to explore but it wasn't until shortly before the sell that he actually sat down and searched/wrote the next chapter in the saga which looked "nothing" like the EU version (a young woman's journey to become a Jedi, no Jedi Order, no Solo twins, Luke not married and without children, Chewbacca alive etc. It would have been slightly different compared to what he imagined thirty years ago, or at least different for the main characters if not for the themes he wanted to explore.

Not a lot of options when GL's outline had no Jedi order, Luke in exile and described as a "broken Kurtz in up the river" and in a "dark place". Not surprisingly, it looked "nothing" like the EU' storyline by PH's admission though it's possible Luke and Leia would have more interactions if GL's intent was to kill him in IX. Just goes to show that it would have been a controversial story beat, not matter who did it.

 

The above excerpt is interesting to me. Is Rey's connection to the darkside separate from her bond with Kylo? Did she have that connection before? Or did that bond occur during the interrogation scene? Is the bond to the dark side one and the same as Rey's connection to Kylo?

It is only through the bond will Rey understand who she really is? What does it mean????
Who she really is? As in lineage?
Who she really is? like in the force?

If Rey was a Skywalker wouldn't her bond with Leia be stronger than a bond with Kylo? I will answer this, yest it would the mother/child bond is supreme, it seems that Leia feels Kylo deeply and actually they feel each other in the force both in TFA & TLJ.

Luke and Leia are the children of Anakin himself yet their connection is never described as powerful and dangerous....
Rey and Kylo's connection is powerful and dangerous... ooohhh, what does it mean????

Rey's darkside connection is she a Palpatine? Nahhh...
Rey's darkside connection. does it involve Jakku? mmmm....


So many questions, zero answers

 

They threw out George’s treatments by his and their own admissions. They could have done anything. They reran the OT because they had no idea what to do.

And frankly, if George had done this, I’d finally join all those people saying he didn’t understand his own creation.

 

Bringing Palps back in IX will have a lot to do with that. I believe it will be revealed how he is connected to the Skywalkers very existence. My guess is JJ will try a similar approach to that of HP. As long as a Skywalker exists Palpatine will survive or something like that. With his ultimate goal being to transfer his essence to Kylo.

Rey will probably be the Force's answer to Kylo being corrupted and the Skywalkers and Palpatine being connected.

Which is probably quite far from what GL got in mind. I don't believe Rey is a Solo, but I do believe the story in which Thea Solo had to fight Skyler Solo, who was not responsible for the Jedi's fall and whose turn to the darkside we would have seen on the first movie, had much more potential than the ST we have now.

 

*Headdesk*

Not sure I want to get into this cyclical argument that goes around these boards every 3.9267 seconds, but they clearly didn't "throw out" George's stuff on VII. It evolved from what George proposed, absolutely, as all films do including all of the OT. But the broad strokes were cooked up by he & Arndt, and plenty of it's still there.

An "Imperial remnant", a female lead about Luke's age in the OT who's a scavenger, Luke in exile, that's all George. Sounds like the yin-yang dymamic of the hero and villain was from those early days too.

 

Yes, I believe Palps will tie the 9 films together as far as the Skywalkers are concerned. It has to do with the force and all of them are connected in the force. We will hopefully find out how I n the film.

 

I think like any other human George continues to evolve and gain insights into the human condition and maybe he wanted to bring new perspectives to the ST, like microbiotic world/ Whills and disaffected Luke. However, I don't think for a second that George would have had disaffected Luke act like a jerk the protagonist seeking a mentor.

Ahh, the Horcrux scenario

 

Even by the time JJ got on board, the treatments already evolved. Look at ANH as we know it compared to the 13-page treatment from 1973, you can see there's an evolution but it wasn't exactly what was in it.
I definitively there's a reveal about Palpatine. It kinda reminds me of the argument that Rey has more of a villain backstory while Kylo has a hero's backstory.

I kinda see how he would have started a a reluctant mentor but as the movie progresses, they will bond. Think about Anakin's initial reluctance in having Ahsoka as his apprentice in TCW movie and look how that turned out in the end.

 

Rey does not have a villain's backstory. The story we have for her now is typical hero's journey secret lineage. Kylo has a typical villains backstory fall from grace...

There is nothing special about either of their backstories at the moment, I am hoping TROS will give us more.

I suspect Rey's bond with the "darkside" and Kylo are one in the same.

Yes just like Luke and Yoda, or some such.... So I guess LF is adding some happy mentor moments for Rey and Leia in the new Marvel comic.

 

Interesting article posted in Star Wars.com today about Rey's past recently.

https://www.starwars.com/news/lessons-from-the-star-wars-saga-anyone-can-be-a-hero

"As the daughter of junk dealers, Rey is following the family business in a way, but her resemblance to her parents ends there. Surrounded by the destruction inside Snoke’s throne room, “They were nobody,” she admits. They took their daughter and tossed her aside, sold her off for drinking money, left her alone with a thug who made her scrounge to survive, failed her when she needed protecting, guidance, and love the most. Rey comes from nothing, as Kylo Ren says."