ST Rey & Kylo Ren in Episode IX

I think in this film, he doubled down on the Dark Side. I think that was the point. It was deliberately juxtaposed against Vader's redemption. Vader killed Palpatine to save Luke, not to seize power. Although I think it's debatable whether Kylo originally planned on killing Snoke just to save Rey (I think not), he never-the-less chose to seize power when he had the chance to turn away from it. I think he clearly moved on his "villain's journey." Now what he does in IX? That's something else altogether.

 

Great post. I just want to comment on the bolded part. Kylo came out of TLJ garnering raves from critics and audiences alike, as the most interesting/most complex character not just in ST but in SW, and he and Rey and their relationship, as well as scenes with Luke, are considered the absolute highlights of the movie. So yes, many related to him no matter what naysayers want to believe.

@xyloren Thanks a lot for your Reylo music post! It's fantastic!

 

Considering a character ver intersting and complex does not equate to relating to him.

I think Kylo is an awesome character. I find him an interesting and complex villain. Adam Driver’s acting is amazing.

But I do not relate to Kylo. Which is fine. I don’t need to relate to a character to appreciate him.

Obviously, many fans think Kylo’s an awesome character *and* relate to him. Which is a-ok.

 

I thought their dynamic was good and all 3 acted very well. I just hope they do not explore the romantic side.

 

Agreed. I love Kylo. Great character. But I do not "relate" to him. That is, I do not empathize with him, though I do see what HE sees as motivation (insofar as it has been revealed so far, that is). But Driver is fantastic, and the character textured, funny at times, even charismatic in an odd way.

 

It's about ANY permutation on the Kylo and Rey interpersonal dynamic. The ban on romantic discussions got lifted last autumn.

So here we are some people complain about romantic discussions and want it silenced. Others complain that they aren't free to talk about romantic without trying to be silenced.

Here's a novel concept for everyone that I would like to propose as a poster who likes to visit this thread: if you don't agree with one end of the spectrum, you don't have to engage. There can be multiple conversations going on in a single thread. Who you choose to reply to really proves that this is not a linear construct.

So if you want to romance, reply to those who want to talk about that. If you want to talk about how Kylo and Rey should fight to the death, reply to like-minded posters as well.

But maybe we should stop trying to intentionally hijack conversations for the sole purpose of quieting the other side.

It's pretty obvious that we will never all agree on this. That's just the start reality of life.

With that, why don't we agree to disagree and spend more time talking about what we enjoy instead of expending scads of energy just trying to make each other miserable.

 

Same. I root for him and hope he gets redeemed in the end but I don't relate to him at all. In contrary, he is everything I am not but Adam Driver performance is so great that I still like the character.
Same for Rey, I don't really relate to her neither, more than Kylo but still, I can't see myself in her. I still like her though.
The only character I kind of relate to in this trilogy is Finn.

It's totally possible to love a character and not relate to them.

 

The notes are all there, but the melody is not finished yet. I think JW knows exactly what he's doing. We'll hear it full force in Ep. IX.

@xyloren correct me if I am wrong: in the hand-scene I hear two notes of Kylo's theme played slower with the strings that seem to be left in the air like a question before giving way to the Force theme. I wonder if this might be a draft of a possible love theme.

 

IMO, there's a difference between discussion with opposing views and bashing. The latter is basically coming to a thread, any thread, and telling people who are interested in the topic that they are wrong for being interested or supporting it, etc. Cause, in their view, the topic/character sucks so badly they are irked that someone could actually take a serious interest and support it. Add to that a type of discussion that boils down to "I don't care what's in the movie, what the movie's actual position in on a topic/character, what director says that the movie conveys, what actors say their characters think/feel/stand for, the only thing that matters to me is what I want to see in the movie or what I don't want to see and if that clashes with reality of what the movie is I don't care cause what I want/don't want is my reality and I'm going to state it as a fact".

I'll give you a hypothetical example. Lets say there are shipper threads that I'm gonna call Comical Crack Ship (CC) and Dead As Doormat Ship (DD). So I read CC for laughs and I don't even bother with DD cause it's dead and buried by another, canon ship.

Now, I could post in CC to point out all the reaching that makes me ROTFL. I could post in DD and point out that it's dead cause the ship that they are trying to erase from existence has sunk it like the iceberg sunk Titanic. But why would I do that? If those fans believe in those ships, they should have fun. I'm not gonna tell them that they are wrong or ________(insert name calling) and that those ships are crack or dead for reasons a,b,c. It would only hijack the thread, ruin it for real fans and it wouldn't contribute to a meaningful discussion.

My point is there's a fine line that gets easily crossed in popular threads (perhaps because popularity irks some?). I didn't notice such problems in unpopular (inactive/barely active) threads.

 

Which Kylo declared at least 3 times in 30 minutes.

 

My memory needs refreshing. Which three moments are we talking about? The closest I can think of is the throne room scene, where he tries to talk her into joining him on the (false) reason that she doesn't matter to anyone else.

 

One might speculate about what we hear in Ep 9, and that JW may turn music from TLJ into a love theme. Just as one may speculate that there will be romance or romantic subtext in that movie.

But there’s simply none of that in TLJ. Well, nothing intentional. But I feel that said lack of intent is relevant to the question of “Did Reylo happen in TLJ?”

(To be clear - I’m making a distinction between “there will be romance/romantic subtext between Kylo and Rey in Ep 9” and “there is romance/romantic subtext in TLJ.” Obviously we can only speculate when it comes to music in Ep 9, and we obviously differ in our expectations, there.)

ETA:

If Kylo is expressing his true feelings, then he thinks that Rey is “nothing,” but not to him.

Not exactly a declaration of love. Actually, it’s pretty cruddy thing to say to someone.

And, of course, it’s not true. Demonstrably not true. But we’ve already been shown how warped Kylo’s perception of reality is.

 

his in a petrified state one could say, he moved in his journey but within the scope of villainy. i agree with the other comment, i think kylo is a great character but i dont relate to him either. however im on board if a redemption happens with reylo in the end or if he stays a villain, i'v seen my fare share of complicated, sympathetic villains who are more then moustache twirling. i think the movies dont make him too sympathetic just enough, i wonder if that will happen in ep 9 or not

 

Hi all, new here and first post! I've been a lurker for awhile and something that I see not just here, but all over TLJ discussion in other platforms, is the divisiveness of Kylo's words to Rey after the PG fight. I've only seen it quoted that he says "You come from nothing. You're nobody. But not to me." And that is indeed a very abusive and condescending statement and I totally understand the backlash. HOWEVER, what he says just prior to those words are "You have no part in this story." And he's not wrong! Rey doesn't have any part in the Skywalker saga up until that point. He's not attacking her on a personal level in the grand scheme of the universe or questioning her inherent worth, he's pointing out that she hasn't played a role in this saga until that past week or so...she WAS a nobody in the Skywalker story. He's acknowledging now that she's actually a pivotal figure and essentially asking her in the throne room to let him write her in to his part of the story, and that is actually kind of sweet. It just seems that the entire context of that exchange has been a bit glossed over to the detriment of constructive conversation. I just feel it's very important not cherry pick words, and this one scene seems to hands down fuel more emotional controversy among fandoms and general audience than any other from TLJ.

 

(Kylo said Rey was “nothing,” which has different - and worse - connotations than “nobody.”)

Rey has no place in this story? Really? Not according to LFL. Or the narrative.

Rey has had a place in this story since she first appeared in TFA. I believe Kylo’s words are meta, and later expressly repudiated by the Poe exchange. Essentially, the movie slams the idea that Rey’s position in the ST is justified only through her connection to Kylo.

Nope. Nope and nope.

 

No character is going to be relatable to everyone. For example, I don't relate to TFA/TLJ designated heroes cause I don't feel them. IMO, they are poorly written with each having 1 over-emphasized trait that's supposed to make them somewhat different from each other (cocky, goofy, spunky) but it really doesn't. Rey fairs better than the other two by default of interacting with the movie's more interesting characters (Kylo, Luke, Snoke) so they give her a chance to show different range of emotions and put her in an interesting story. But the rest of them are stuck with each other or other uninteresting characters (Leia and new characters) so they fall flat with me. It didn't help that their part of the movie was interminable, IMO.

However, just because I don't relate to them it doesn't mean that I'm not aware that they are meant to be relatable, so when I predict the story going forward, or discuss the movie, my predictions and discussion are based on the fact that they are relatable and not on that I personally don't relate to them. Likewise, one doesn't have to relate to Kylo but the fact is that he is meant to be relatable since we are told so. And many people do relate to him. point is, movie's intention is the key to where the next movie's going. So I'd say that with Kylo being meant to be relatable and viewed as more redeemable than Vader (Rian Johnson), and everything that happened in TLJ (his killing Snoke to save Rey, his not wanting to kill Leia, his feelings for Rey albeit badly expressed, his and Rey's Force Bond and obviously mutual feelings, his devastated last look after his anger has passed), he has a very good chance to turn out well in IX and give his family saga an optimistic and hopeful closure.

 

I think Ep 9 should have some short scebe showing Kylo being kind to BB-9E. Something universally understood as “humanizing.”

I agree that Kylo is meant to be relatable (to a degree, of course), but I don’t think they’ve *yet* taken the steps to make him more anti-hero than villain.

At the moment, I think they intend Kylo’s status to be ambiguous: Is he actually an anti-hero, or is he a villain who has flashes of humanity but is still a villain (whether or not he ends up bring redeemed?

I had thought that Kylo would end TLJ “dark,” but after a redemption arc had been clearly set up. I don’t think they did that. And in the end, our subverted expectations were subverted once more - Yes, Kylo is a bad guy, and yes, Luke is a hero. It’s similar to what I personally think they’re doing with the trilogy as a whole.

 

Welcome!

I think Kylo is engaging in a classic abusive technique.... telling Rey she is worthless... not even her own parents wanted her, but HE wants her. That is a classic attempt to create a dependent relationship. His declaration that she has no place in the story is another attempt to marginalize her, before offering her the chance to be elevated by him. His "acknowledgement" is entirely selfish. He says "but not to me," not "but you are strong in the Force." It all comes back to Kylo, his entitlement, and what he wants. There was no credit to Rey there. All in my opinion, of course.

 

I double checked the "nothing/nobody" quote and you are correct. My apologies. However, he does indeed say that she has no part in this story, and I firmly believe that he was still speaking in the context of the Skywalker saga when he says she is "nothing." Also, TFA had only taken place what, max of 2 weeks, prior to that scene? So let's see, no more than a month ago she was still getting conned out of portions by Plutt on nowhere Jakku with nothing and nobody.

By the way, I never said that her position in the story is only justified through her connection to Kylo. Leia was obviously the first Skywalker to invite her into the Resistance and therefore, their story. Luke initially rejected her. And now Kylo was admitting that she should play a role. I was simply trying to point out that the words seem taken out of context in the grand scheme of things.

 

Yeah, but he made a mistake and she turned him down because of it. So next movie's going to be his bouncing back because that's how it should be. Only he can save himself and win Rey's trust back. She may be a motivator (which Luke wasn't hence "I cannot save him" as in he can't not that Ben is beyond saving) but his change is his alone. Also, he had to make a mistake and get rebuffed to realize where he went wrong. Rey kept her agency and that's why he's now thinking about what he lost (the last shot of him after this anger has passed).

I think that's an excellent characterization for both that set up a great story to unfold in IX. That's really the main hook - what happens to Rey and Kylo? How will they get back together?

 

I don't think so; she's had a part in the story since 2015. The sequel trilogy is her story (among other people's). She, not Kylo is the lead character (or a lead character) of this story.

 

Thank you for the warmer welcome!

I understand what you're saying. I was initially really put off the first couple of times watching that scene. To go from such an incredible fight scene to a beat down of words was tough to stomach. Upon further viewing though, I started to see Kylo as a broken boy who sucks at communication with an equal. It was still wrong, no doubt about it, but I don't believe he meant it to come out the way it did. Just my two cents. We'll find out more when the novelization comes out!

 

This the Skywalker Family Saga, something that used to be very much pointed out as a proof that Rey was a Skywalker. Cause how could a main protagonist not be a Skywalker? Well, turns out Kylo is the only young Skywalker and Rian said Kylo and Rey are "dual protagonists" and "two sides of almost the same protagonist". So how come that now a Skywalker isn't a lead in his family story? He is. he and Rey are leads. She may be the main protagonist to his deuteragonist but it's their story first and foremost, with Resistance and FO being the background noise. Rey first than Kylo than the rest of them bulked up.

 

It is a declaration of love, just very poorly done. Rian has specifically commented on this scene and confirmed that Kylo's offer was meant to be "a very naked, open, emotional appeal. It's his version of, 'I'm just a girl standing in front of a guy'. . . ". https://www.empireonline.com/movies...st-jedi-10-revelations-director-rian-johnson/

As mentioned before, Rian is referring to Julia Roberts' famous declaration of love in Notting Hill. Kylo is likewise making a heartfelt offer to Rey, but he completely botches it, not unlike Darcy in Pride and Prejudice.

 

I'm referring to the timespan we're viewing in the movies, not how long the movies have been out. WE may have had Rey in our lives since 2015, but the Skywalkers haven't had her in theirs until that past month or so portrayed in TFA and TLJ.