Discussion in 'London UK' started by electroretro, May 17, 2005.
seconded Fordy, the scene in the suit was poor
I'm personally not sure on the Palpatine/Anakin theory. Palpatine said his Master taught him everything and he had the power to save Padme, but later said that he didn't have all that knowledge but with Anakin's help was confident he could get it.
I need to watch it again to be clearer on what he said, but part of me thinks he said it only to seduce Anakin to the Dark Side and doesn't have those powers at all.
I also have a theory that maybe it was Palpatine giving Anakin those nightmares about Padme so that he could use that story to seduce Anakin, but that's just me
Personally I really wish the Yoda landing on Dagobah scene had beem in there at the end, and his conversation with Qui-Gon (about the Whills!) had been included. I really liked those two parts in the comic now I've read it and it would have been cool to see them on the screen.
I sat down and read through the screenplay in the Art Of... book yesterday and compared it to what I saw at the Empire on Monday.
The cuts to the opening as the Jedi make their way through the separatist cruiser seemed sensible but I would have liked to have seen the various scenes with the senators discussing a prototype rebellion. However, I was most dissapointed that they excised the Qui-Gon scene. I hope that makes it back in at some point.
There were cuts made to the duel too. It would have been cool to see Anakin bombard Obi-Wan with debris as they fight, just like ESB. I should think that was a last minute cut as the soundtrack definitely points to this happening.
Finally, I'd heard that the Dagobah scene was going to be in the digital print. I guess that must have been just a rumour.
As for the Plagueis discussion. I think it infers that firstly Palpatine was Plagueis' apprentice and that secondly one of them had manipulated the midichlorians to create Anakin. I like this as it means that they brought about their own eventual destruction by unknowingly fulfilling the prophecy.
Chris - I like the nightmare theory
Fordy - motion carried - the suit scene at the end was probably the worst bit of the film. It doesn't get any better the second time either unfortunately
Jazzatola - the senators discussing a rebellion would have been great! I love the poltical intrigue in SW - hopefully that scene will make it to the DVD ?
Palpatine was Plagueis's apprentice, that much was confirmed in Labyrinth of Evil before the film.
I guess one of them (probably Plagueis before Palpatine killed him in his sleep, man I loved that line ) could have been behind Anakin's birth. After all Yoda said the Jedi could have misread the prophecy imply that balance could mean either end the Sith and stop the growing darkness (the Jedi view) or wipe out the Jedi and restore it to 2:2 (I'm guessing the Sith view).
I guess Anakin chose to do both
That would make 2 self fulfilling prophecies then: the Sith creating Anakin and therefore bringing about their own eventual destruction, and Anakin going to the Dark Side and killing Padme in his quest to stop that from happening.
Of course if the Sith did create Anakin (can't wait for the DVD commentary on that one!) then that begs the question is he truely the Chosen One? The prophecy was that he would be concieved by the midichlorians, but doesn't Sith manipulation go against that? If so then could there be another, real, Chosen One in the future?
Edit - Thanks Raj
I think Yoda on Dagobah is prime material for the minor extentions he always makes for DVD. The rebellion stuff will probably be a deleted scene. I think C3 said there would be some deleted Grievous stuff on the DVD (I think a scene rather than new material in the film)
Perhaps the chosen one is Luke! Perhaps Padme was originally carrying one child, Leia, thanks to her jiggy-jiggy with Anakin, and then the midichlorians shoved Luke in there too! Surely in the age of cloning and bacta at least one of Padme's pre-natal scans would have shown she had twins
Yoda mentioning that the prophecy may have been misinterpreted must have some significance - I like the 2:2 balance thing. But then that has implications for the EU.....
EDIT : Not at all
I don't know much about the EU but my thinking is that Anakin is the chosen one in that by the end of ROTJ he brings balance to the force by taking out both the good and bad guys.
That just leaves Luke and no sith. Which while not perfect is a lot more balanced than the days of the Repuplic.
Raj if we get into EU I think this chat will get very complex the minute someone mentions Vergere, Jacen Solo and the NJO
In the movie sense the 2:2 thing is perfect. Like Jazz says he takes out both good guys and bad guys. His killing of Ben in ANH is balanced out as Ben had started training Luke. The Death of Yoda in ROTJ is balance by the death of the Emperor. It's now Luke's job to create a Jedi Order that is more balanced than the one of the prequels. If you've read Labyrinth of Evil it's mentioned that Qui-Gon was a critic of the Jedi Temple, saying that it programmed Padawans to become Jedi rather than being a place where they could grow into being a Jedi, I think that's the type of more balanced order that Luke was intended to create(and does in the EU).
If you move it into the EU:
Luke is, as Ben says in Heir to the Empire, not the last of the old but the first of the new. By taking on apprentices that are already people rather than babies his Jedi aren't bound by the same "programmed rules" that Qui-Gon criticised in the Old Republic, and are more liberal with their emotions (and hence more balanced within the Force.
This is taken full circle in the New Jedi Order when Jacen Solo learns to balance Light and Dark within himself and simply use the Force rather than one of it's perceived sides. He does so under the tutelage of Vergere, but if you read The Unifying Force he ultimately comes to accept and embrace this with guidance from Anakin Skywalker.
lol - wow - you've obviously given the EU quite a bit of thought! You're absolutely right - the 2:2 thing works throughout the films. Probably best to leave the EU characters out of the jedi/sith thing - at least until after we've done our exams!
On a non-jedi issue - was Prince Xizor in ROTS at all, or any other Faleen? Considering George likes Shadows of the Empire, I thought he might make an appearance as a background character.
Lol actually I kinda thought up all of that on the spot based on some vague ideas I've been going over since reading NJO that I went back to after seeing Sith wondering how it all fit. I'm still a bit unsure on the Force has no sides vs what we saw in Sith, but I'm thinking that Stover's novel that I've just started will deal with some of that and if not then the answer lies in Traitor and I have an excuse to read that again. If it is in Traitor I think Vergere's line about passion that is guided but not walled away (but also not all consuming as was said later on) is very important.
If there are any non-Jedi EU characters in ROTS (like I know Isard has been in Jedi Trail, Laybrinth of Evil and the web-strip Reversal of Fortunes) then I'm thinking the opera house or the senate are the most likely places we'll see them. And speaking of, did anyone see George in ROTS? I completely forgot to look out for him!!!
Still can't believe Aayla got shot in the back without a fight
Edit - yeah I should leave this until after revision! I have an exam on Friday and I'm seeing Sith again tomorrow so I shouldn't really take time out to work out Jedi prophecies and Force philosophy!
I think that it is possible that everything that transpired in Palpatine's favour was planned.
He created Anakin, then made it possible for the jedi to land on Tatooine and discover him, while he was busy making himself Chancellor.
I'm not sure he planned the whole Padme thing but he used it as a good way to manipulate Anakin, though he was unaware of any children being born.
I think Anakin's injury was an added bonus because it allowed Palpatine to keep Vader at arms length and it meant Vader was no longer powerful enough to try and overthrow him, which he probably would've tried to do had he not been so badly wounded.
The appearance of Luke botched up everything, but Palpatine was still sure he could mould Luke into his new apprentice, how wrong he turned out to be
Fair points, but I don't think there was any way he could have planned for the Jedi to arrive on Tatooine the way they did.
The blockade of Naboo, his election, the creation of the armies, everything there was perfectly planned. But there was no way he could have planned for Padme's ship being damaged and Tatooine being the best place for them to repair. He could have taken a gamble on that's where they'd go if they did take damage (due to the same reasons the Jedi chose it), but I don't think it was part of the plan. There are parts of TPM (like Amidala's return to Naboo and starting the battle) that I do think caught him off guard, but he just adapted to them. Maybe the finding of Anakin was like that? Not something he planned for but something he wanted to take full advantage of as soon as he learnt of him. After all if Anakin was meant to destroy the Sith it's best to keep an eye on him and make him your friend than ignore him.
I still think there's two ways to read what Palpatine said to Anakin:
1) Either he or his Master did create Anakin and it was all part of a far larger plan (and from what people have said about the abandoned father idea it seems like this may be the one that was intended)
2) He had no such ability, but somehow he had learnt of Anakin and Padme's marriage and sensed that she was pregnant. As soon as Anakin returned he knew Padme would tell him so created Anakin's nightmares about her dying in childbirth. He already knew of Anakin killing the Tusken raiders and his desire to save those he loved. Giving Anakin fear that the perosn he loves most would die and then telling him that he could teach him abilities that would save her was the best method he had of turning Anakin from Jedi to Sith.
Wanna watch it a few more times before I decide which I believe. And after that I'll still be waiting for the director's commentary to contradict me!
If i recall correctly, Anakin and Shmi aren't actually from Tatooine. my EU is a bit rusty of late but i'm sure that he was born somewhere else. Palpatine (or Plagis) could have created him and then unexpectedly they moved to Tatooine
If Anakin was created by Palpatine, why didn't he go and get him earlier and raise him as a sith from his child hood? Presumably this is because he had Maul as his apprentice, but if he had confidence in Maul's abilities why would he need Anakin? unless Palpatine is so powerful he could foresee everything that happened with incredible detail i don't think he could have created Anakin, but took advantage of his skills and lack of jedi 'programming'.
I don't think that Palpatine created Anakin's dream. Anakin is an immensely powerful Jedi, and has the ability to see things before they happen (as Qui Gon said in TPM). He dreamnt his mother was in danger and she was, he could easily have seen Padme's death caused by him, and I think that haunted him for a long time after he realised he was responsible.
Yeah you're right Stuey in TPM Anakin says he's been there since he was "about 3".
Good point about his dream about his mother, Richie. Only thing I can think of there is that if he told Palpatine all the details (as was implied) then Palpatine could be using that to his advantage. It just seems like something nice and very underhanded that the Sith would do.
ROTS HAD A BAD ENDING
I think the movie was a certain 10/10, i however agree with the people who are unhappy. This movie could have more than 10/10, it could have been the best film/story/philosophy ever produced.
Due to the length of the movie many scenes had to be cut short, there were also far to many cut scenes. The ending could have been far more powerful, we really should have witnessed Anakin's full power and how his confusion prevented him from using this against Obi. The Vader scene should have also been done with more power and emotion. There were many scenes that could have been left out to make time for some of the more key scenes.
I agree, bring on the 3 hour plus version.
I expected Vaders scream to burst the room twist and tear everything apart, not the build up to it.
that is vader we are talking about, that scene was quite lame. I remember i read an extract from a book, where one of Anakin's screams destroys a whole building. His anguish over Padme should have destroyed the sh%& out of that lab.
Hmm - what if Palpatine actually created Luke and Leia by manipulating the midichlorians! Thats how he knew about Padme being pregnant
i dont think that is possible as both Luke and Vader can sense this father/son connection via the force. Plus, as I stated earlier it took this connection for Vader to overcome his feelings for Palpatine.
The film sheds new light on Palpatine and Anakin, Palpatine has actual care and hopes for Anakin, as he believes so much is his dark ability. He just fears he may loose control over Anakin/Vader. Anakin too has a deep connection with Palpatine, this might explain the longevity of their Sith relationship.
Well, Vader was not strong enough to overthrow Palpatine once confined to his suit, and there were no other dark Jedi/Sith who would've provided Palpatine with a better apprentice.
Though if Luke had not come along to spoil it all then I beleive that Vader would've taken Mara Jade as his apprentice, she was the only other bad Jedi around at the time
went to see the film last night at the Croydon Vue on Purley way (screen 4) and I have to say my experience was not the best. I had some ignorant gimps behind munching on crips, and the sound in that screen was pretty bad. There seemed to be a lack of surround speakers, and the sound was also a bit tinny. Maybe I am used to the comfort of my home and own system.
Anyhow, I am glad it is not just me that found the Darth Vader (transformation) scene weak. I expected him to throw a total fit, and for the Emperor to say something to calm him down, but no. Quite dissapointing. The rest of the film I found very good though.
But what is the deal with Yoda and the Wookies? Is that back story in some Expanded Universe book or something? I also somehow expected to see a young Han Solo in this film, but I guess that was just a rumour.
Also, how is it that Vader seems to forget that Luke exists when we see him in a New Hope? Is it that he thinks the child died with Padme?
When the emperor tells Vader he has a son (not in so many words) I assume he could already see the future and knew that Luke survived?
Oh, and is it actually R2-D2 that has the final line in the film, not C-3PO? I actually didn't think about the last line when watching it and Anthony Daniels keeps saying he had the last line. I seem to remember that R2-D2 had a little murmour and 'chuckle' after C-3PO responds to the memory wipe statement.
Does anyone know why it is that C-3PO gets his memory wiped and not R2?
Just a few musings!
At the beginning of ESB Vader tells Ozzel something along the lines of 'the rebels are there and Skywalker is with them' so he must have known something before the emperor told him-don't know how he worked it out (though in the EU he tortured someone till they told him the name of the pilot who destroyed the death star). Alao, isn't it in the crawl at the start of ESB that Vader is obsessed with finding young Skywalker.
Also, in the comic of ROTS, Yoda tells everyone to bury Padme when she looks pregnant, so that no-one knows she had any children.