ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

Curious question for frequent posters in this thread. Have any of you read the novel/junior novel for TLJ? And if you did has it changed your opinion to either more positive or negative?

 

I finally reached this point as well.

At first I tried to watch TLJ again about 5 times. Couldn't get past the opening crawl. So I took a new approach and finally flushed TLJ from my mind enough to sit and watch the OT. Still holds up.

If IX is good, I'll think of TFA and IX of (oh - that's nice) but not really as part of the story.

 

You chose...wisely.

 

I couldn`t bring myself to touch anything related to TLJ and the few things I have read about either novel have not enticed me one bit.

I agree. I mean, I could even envision the ST as some grim-dark AU, just not the definitive ending of the story, you know. I`m firmly of the believe that even the best fictional characters have offputting loser-versions in alternate realities. That actually makes the version the reader/audience knows in whatever story it is more meaningful and flat-out more awesome.

So the idea that in one universe a TLJ-Luke-Jake exists makes the actual Luke who progresses from the OT in, lets call it, GFFA-Prime, so much better. Now for me that is Legends-Luke but for someone who doesn`t like either version that could be yet another iteration.

What bums me out about TLJ has always been more that they committed that to film, even using the original actors. Whereas I will never get a visual representation of a continuing story that would appeal to me with those characters. Oh well, I`ve had the OT before and I still have it now. Would have been nice to just get some new scenes and iconic moments to commit to my mental library.

That would just further invalidate Luke in my eyes and take away even more of the little triumph he has had so honestly I would hate that story almost as much as the one in TLJ. Talk about kicking someone when he is down.

 

The soft reboot nature is mildly frustrating at times because I also wish they had just been more original but I can appreciate the unfortunate reality of soft reboot success with newer audiences and I don’t see the trend changing much in Hollywood.

 

If Hollywood keeps doing what they are currently doing, they will run this reboot-mania into the ground and soon. This isn`t the same as the prophecized comic book movie fatigue that has yet to truly manifest. I see people getting sick of reboots left and right and the concept if far from generally successful. Even newer audiences are aware of the fact that they are increasingly getting the hand-me-downs of previous generations.

Just imagine they would have done that in the past. Say the 80s would have looked at what was popular in the 70s and rebooted it. Then the 90s would have looked at the 80s - meaning you are already getting a reboot of a reboot by then. If that had continued today`s audiences would be getting the rebooted reboot of a reboot of a reboot from 70s content. MASH and Love Boat and Charlie`s Angels (and nothing against either of those, especially MASH) forever.

 

That's me. I'm happy to consider the ST not canon and have my own idea where things went, but it's out there as canon and pretty much inescapable. Plus they couldn't even give us a pic of the big three together in costume (hell, the big 4). Not enough to never reunite them onscreen, just...nothing.

 

Yup, that is a bummer. If I had that MIB-memory-erasing-equipment, I would actually use it on everyone, then hide all the copies of TLJ and then have my own movies on film. And noone would knooooow, muhahaha.

 

The ST feels like Pokemon and Power Rangers these days.
Pokemon-Ash travels to a new region with just Pikachu, leaving most of his old Pokemon behind and catches new ones. New traveling companions with some mentions and or appearances of old friends. Jessie, James and Meowth still follow him around while dealing with the evil Team of the new Region. Each Saga lasts 3-4 years before beginning again. The original theme song was sort of reused at the start of the Kalos arc. The original 3 starters from Kanto were being reused by 3 rivals.
Power Rangers-Since In Space ended the Zordon era in the late 90's, each new team has had a single season storyline (Up to the start of Samurai in the early 2010's with 2 seasons) with most of those teams getting a team up with the previous season except Wild Force and Ninja Storm. RPM and Dino Charge even took place in Alternate timelines. Some continuity and some of the catch phrases from the original seasons were being used. "It's Morphin' Time" and Go Go Power Rangers in the intro.

 

Yes but in this trilogy Luke is completely undermined already so outside of a SE of TLJ where you totally rework Luke's story there isn't much you can do except say that Luke wasn't in his right mind when he cut himself off from the Force and went to the island. There are various ways you can address it like saying he went to the island with a purpose and left a map behind in case and so on then on the island was overcome by the same Dark side source that called to Rey. Maybe even Luke only got cut off from the Force after he went there and was overcome by some Dark arts Sith magic and has his perceptions of the past altered.

Whatever you do in movie terms his actions in TLJ do happen so the question is not that they happened (since they did) but why they did and how he got there as a character. He was clearly confused about his past since he simply relearned what he already learned decades earlier so what made him forget?

The fact alone that he knows nothing of the map which by TFA he almost certainly left with Tekka (or left somewhere and Tekka found) could be used to show how his perceptions and memory were altered.

 

Given the Skywalker curse it’s remarkable Han survived as long as he did. When you get close to this family usually death follows. The Skywalkers are the GFFA’s Grim Reapers!

 

Yes, TLJ is basically shot. But you could technically give Luke important Force ghosts moment in ep 9 in the spirit realm. But if you gave that to other spirits and had Luke more sitting on the sidelines because he is completely useless, you do even more damage to the character. He might be dead but the character could still be violated further in 9. It could make TLJ even worse. And I thought the scenario you outlined would do that.

 

That was just about the way to tie the threads of Anakin and Sidious in. Obviously you'd then come up with something for Luke. I would say that you have Luke end up not being dead. So however you want to work it he was pulled into the Force realm like Yoda in TCW where he's learning anew and then at the end of IX he returns and with Rey restarts the Jedi Order. As to the specifics of what he does there are many things he can do. For one someone needs to take out the Knights of Ren so he can do that.

 

I agree with you, @Alliyah Skywalker . Having anakin and yoda getting to do something positive in the spirit realm and having Luke sit by do absolutely nothing but beam at rey, makes Luke’s character even worse, as unbelievable as that sounds. And, why bring Mark Hamill back again just to have his character further humiliated, diminished, and degraded? It would rub salt even more deeply into the wounds of Luke fans who were already devastated by TLJ.

I am jealous of those of you who can still watch and enjoy the OT films after seeing these sequels. I wish I could, but I just can watch them. I am afraid that I will never be able to watch them again.

Edit: @Qui-Riv-Brid , I just saw your last post. If they could bring Luke back to train Rey and restore the order, than that would really help! They need to do something to rehabilitate Luke, or I know that I will never watch another Star Wars film.

I still don’t really want to see Kylo redeemed though.

 

New Jedi Order book series for Skywalker/Solo finale and Snoke at some point in that future goes back in time and creates the ST universe.

 

Ah, okay, that would be much better for me. I`d want pay-off for Luke either forward or backwards, as in he has a tangible hand in restarting the Order, not just Rey the Super-being or he is transported back through time and finds himself as the guy who eventually starts the first Jedi Order.

However for the ST, I would honestly rather keep Sidious dead. I know he would be an obvious tie-in through all movies but his defeat was basically the Bazinga of the OT (and therefore the redemption of the unhappy ending of the PT). To me, the ST doesn`t deserve the honor to have him and defeat him for good.
I`d actually rather they bring in Plagueis if need be. Or keep Kylo as the Big Bad.

 

Here's hoping you're right.

FWIW the 'time will heal all' idea doesn't cut it for me either. I don't believe that the series concluding will elevate the material in any way.

The Twilight series was pretty mediocre. But I watched them all. I made it to the end, but I can barely remember anything about it now, and it's only been 5 years or so. Nothing improved by having the series wash up.

And I certainly don't subscribe to any TLJ becoming 'better received in time' theory either.

Matrix Revolutions was one of the most disappointing movies I ever saw. It pretty much ruined the Matrix franchise for me.

I still like the original (perhaps as I do TFA - although who knows if those good vibes will stick). But what followed was so terrible that as a series it became dead in the water.

That's where we are only 2 eps into the ST.

15 years later and I still can't stand Revolutions. It was a hot mess then, and it's a hot mess today.

It's failure wasn't particularly for want of trying a few things. The visuals were superb, it had some interesting metaphysical mumbo jumbo going on; and there were some memorable sequences. However, much like TLJ none of these cosmetic elements mattered a damn.

It was like a badly cooked turkey that ruined Thanksgiving by poisoning the fanbase and making half of it sick to the guts.

Pretty familiar stuff really to what is currently going on in SW.

TLJ's reaction is set in stone. Bookmark it.

 

Yeah, Sidious coming back in Dark Empire was great. But not in the ST. Sidious seems less powerful in the New Canon. I prefer him being slightly more powerful than Yoda in the original EU and the PT. It's interesting how Sidious is not only a deadly genius, but also sometimes overconfident and foolish. I still think he could destroy Snoke in any version. I actually liked Serkis' portrayal of Snoke, but Snoke seems different in TFA than in TlJ. He seems more subtle and wiser. Despite how evil he is, I agree with his assessment of Kylo Ren in TLJ, and I imagine he would have killed Ren had Ren actually killed Rey.

Anyhow, yeah, I don't think 9 will make TLJ better. It will make TFA better perhaps. JJ Abrams is a better director than Johnson. However, I am skeptical that 9 will be good, given how Larry Kasdan is not writing it. But we'll see. Abrams may have the right idea by tying all three trilogies together. But the problem is that Disney wanted a dumbed down version of Star Wars. The prequels have many flaws, but despite how terribly Padme is portrayed in ROTS, ROTS is pretty good otherwise. I'm going to be honest. Daisy Ridley is not only a good actress, but extremely attractive to women who are not straight. In real life, she is very intelligent because she has the guts to say that certain things like social media aren't good for your mental health. I agree with her. that's why I'm not on Twitter or Snapchat. Lol. But I'm on FB. Go figure. Felicity Jones is one who should have won an Oscar long ago. Daisy is good, but I don't know she's Oscar good quite yet. I'll have to see her in other things. As long as the Rey role doesn't limit her life, I think she'll be fine. I would hate for her to wind up like Hayden Christensen. I listened to Christensen's words in the ROTS commentary, and he came off as very intelligent like Ian McDiarmid. I liked his performance. I do prefer Matt Latern's voice for Anakin, but Hayden managed to make a character that wasn't written well all the time come off as terrifying and dangerous. Hayden got a bad wrap. I think that Daisy and John Boyeaga are great.

I like Kelly Marie Tran, but I do not know how to feel about her character, Rose. I haven't mentioned this before. But I'm actually quite confused by her. I don't have any problem with her being tough, but she disobeys her own advice. I'm willing to forgive how she enjoyed the revolt on the casino planet. But saving Finn from his suicide mission did not make sense, at least according to her reasoning. On the other hand, I like Finn a lot, and I don't know why the eff he was mistreated in TLJ. His arc made no sense. They made him a bit too comedic, as well. It's cool that he defeated Phasma, but it would have been nice to actually know who Phasma was. They should have left in that deleted scene of Phasma killing her own troops. And Hux? Good performance. I have a terrible villain who throws around her terrorist servants in my novel like Snoke did with Hux. But it would help if we knew about Hux's terrible childhood in the movies themselves. That would give us a sense of who this nazi is. Plus, he killed trillions of people in TFA. He seemed more, um, fierce in that movie.

 

Unless it opens with Han walking out of a shower to Leia and her saying "what a strange dream I had" there's no way 9 can fix anything for me.

I hope for whatever fans are left, they enjoy it, but I don't see it happening. I have no earthly idea how everything can come to a "satisfying conclusion" to the Skywalker Saga but I'm sure JJ believes he's got it. I strongly doubt I would agree.

Personally, I think the ST will be like Godfather 3 or the Jaws sequels in about ten years.

 

Ooh, burn.

Like I said, I wish we could have something like a proper Quinlan Vos story in the style of neo-noir or something. I'd love too see Nomi Sunrider. If Kathleen Kennedy had any sense, she would have adapted Sunrider, Satele Shan, Darth Zannah, Lumiya, Darth Traya, or Mara Jade. The omission of Mara in particular was a critical mistake. Mara on the big screen surviving so much and wrecking [censored] would have been more popular than Rey. I think Star Wars will always have fans, but this Sequel Trilogy has done a lot of damage. If they are booting out Kennedy, my dream would be for them to place James Luceno in an important position, but it's not gonna happen. The ST shows they've run out of new ideas. They're like dumb Darth Krayts who try to control everyone in that company. So weird.

 

I own it because i had pre ordered it and forgot about it but i don’t care after the way Disney has treated the new canon as being filler and not necessarily important whatever they have enhanced or sort of expanded doesn’t make me think i will like the movie more. I take issue with the overall structure and story fleshing it out my shore up some holes but JJ could undo that in IX so nope won’t be reading it. The force download crap and the fact that Snoke beat Luke are enough to make not care

 

The difference here is that your opinion of Revolutions being dreadful was supported by the masses and critics alike. It has a 36% rotten tomatoes critical score, zero award wins, and a 6.7/10 IMDB score. It’s the kind of movie that even people who liked it gave it only a 6 out of 10. That’s what dooms it.

TLJ is already far different. The biggest reasons its scores are low tend to be 1 Star reviews from those who hate it most. Put simply, there’s a good chance that as time goes on those 1 star reviews feel strangely harsh to new audiences and over the top. Few things warrant 1 Star reviews and those who haven’t left theirs already likely won’t have the personal investment to feel anywhere near as angered or slighted. And that’s where TLJ shines. If you apply an Olympic mean that eliminates the high and low for this film you see a clear picture in the mid 7 range. The same score found on IMDB with over 405,000 posters in. The same as Douban’s more than 80,000 people. That’s nearly half a million people!

7.2-7.4 out of 10 movies just aren’t seen the way you wish TLJ was outside of anywhere but anti-TLJ message boards or subreddits or comments sections. Heck, Black Panther has settled into a 7.5 score on IMDB already for frame of reference.

Its combination of immense critical acclaim, its support from less invested movie geeks like the Saturn awards, Empire Awards, AARP awards, all suggest that beyond the 1 Star scores is a movie that millions likely see as a solid 7.2-7.4/10 film and that mix, along with the eventual youth wave who will come of age & support it the way the PT kids have the PT, along with a happy ending for IX that brings it all together... will all benefit in time.

 

The question is not one of critical consensus. The question is what proportion of those who disliked the movie back then still dislike is years later.

I'd say the answer is their views haven't changed. Mine certainly haven't.

Corroborating evidence would be that RT amd IMDB support the view there is no dramatic shift upwards in apeal for Revolutions over time.

60% is dire, and 6.7 is an indicator the masses regard the film as poor.

TLJ will be similar.

IMDB will settle in around the 7 to 7.2 mark, denoting meh. And I cannot see the audience score doing much improving.

You'd need to see IMDB going past 8 to state audiences feel TLJ is a good to great film. Won't happen.

7.4 on Imdb is average to ok, btw.

Hate to say it, but BP for all the event status it delivered, isn't Citizen Kane. It gets a big tick from me, and I enjoyed it. But as a movie it's so-so. Sorry if that is a shocking comment.

 

The situation is really closer to how much old school Trekkies hate Abrams Trek reboot & Into Darkness in comparison to the average movie goer and critic. I say “closer” becsuee I can appreciate that the hate is more severe here for TLJ. There are just more hard core Star Wars fans online along with a larger political divide that’s also active and vocal online that bolstered the noise.

The average person with less investment though overall who is more of a casual fan and doesn’t see it as a 1 out of 10 film? Those people by and large move it into the 7.2 or above range.

The other thing you have to consider is narrative and unfortunately for all those who have legitimate gripes the narrative for TLJ has already been written as one where a combination of online Right Wing anger, men’s rights anger and “Not my Luke” anger combined in an unprecedented way on some high profile sites and brought down the audience scores in a couple areas far more than the 7.0 or above range seen elsewhere, including some of the largest samples of all like IMDB.

“Didn’t it only get hated by like the fan boys who were mad about Luke not being some big hero and like the alt right?” is a legitimate question I’ve heard now in casual discourse. It’s the narrative that’s one out and now that the movie is 7 months out... it’s also the narrative most likely to stick and grow through word of mouth.

Not fair to everyone else who dislikes it for reasons far different but the narrative has been written.

And since critics enjoy it more and more of the media have written more favorably about it they will continue to drive that narrative.