ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

I doubt the political divide has as much to do as you think. Take this thread for example there are plenty of people who would identify as from the left who critique the film. If you where to watch episodes 4 and 5 back to back, then watch 7 and 8 back to back and compare them one of the biggest things that would jump out at you is the severe lack of character building and development in them (7-8) in comparison to 4-5. The characters just don't grow. Which illustrates to me at least from my point of view that the ST is bad storytelling and which is one of the main reasons so many other posters in this thread are in accordance with what I have just put forth. Also a # of % of the pie for members here are not from the US and have no dog in that fight either.

 

No. You're moving the goal posts.

Two categories only. Those who liked. Those who disliked. And did opinions change over time - say 10-15 years.

That's all I was discussing.

Zeroing in on a specific subset to narrow the focus of discussion - such as only wanting to discuss OT fans aged 40-50 who drive SUVs, have 2 kids, 1 pet, have allergies to pollen, own a Luke Skywalker bedspread, and live within 15 km of New York City, is a pointless narrowing of the statistical sample.

Let alone attempting to divine the minds of 100s of thousand of reviwers who post on ImDB over the decades, and deciding which of them gives a specific type of score, and why.

 

I had no idea your primary point this whole time was that you were saying that those who hate it will continue to... because I agree with you on that. I think the majority who are most passionate have made up their minds.

I thought we were talking more about the general consensus 10-15 years from now when the trilogy is done and the 8-14 year olds are all posting in 2028 the way the kids who grew up on the PT have come to defend it online and raised its profile.

My point was that the peak of anger and the 1/10 reviews that came from it will be fading on this. And once it does it’s a huge benefit to the movie because those low reviews lower the more general consensus of an above 7.0/10 movie for the masses and critics. In fact, in time there will be a new set of contrarians approaching the movie after hearing the controversy and going, “That’s the controversy!? I was expecting far worse. This movie’s not as bad as I was expecting from all the controversy.” It almost sets it up better for some now.

 

Fair enough.

What I was talking about was that IX cannot change that consensus. Nor can time move that consensus significantly.

I posit the general consensus (ignoring critics, who are of a specific 2 month period in history and irrelevant over 15 years) will not change.

Both RT and IMDB polls are in. There is no sense of TLJ being anything more than okay at best.

To move that upwards would be a monumental shift.

If you are right, and IX is amazeballs TLJ should significantly increase.

Or if IX is a non-factor, and you are right about time, then audiences will come to their senses and push TLJ past 8 on IMDB, and significantly higher than 60% on RT.

Time will tell. However, I cited Revolutions as an excellent example of how time doesn't move the needle.

The fact that there was both critical and general consensus that Revolutions was poor is immaterial.

 

As an OT fan primarily, I thought TFA was good. Not great but solid.
Though i felt it was settling up a narrative for the ST that would just prove to be too predictable somewhat...
Happily however, TLJ completely changed all that.
As things stand, Rey has no Jedi lineage.
Kylo has killed Snoke and assumed the role of Supreme Leader.
Luke Skywalker has passed on and become one with the Living Force..
I fully expected Luke & a trained Rey to head out together to face Snoke et al at the climax of 8.
But Rian switched it completely and full credit to him

 

I've said this before in an earlier topic, but I operate under the fact that SW is now a Multiverse with different timelines akin to DBGT and DB Super.

Simply because Disney declares what's 'Canon' and proceeds to ignore and throw out most if not all of Lucas' foundations for a new Trilogy and the EU, doesn't mean they control what my own head canon is.

Thanks to the internet, hell thanks to sources from this very site, I can enjoy filling my head to the brim with more satisfying SW stories of a time where the NR was smart and Luke's NJO thrived.

And I will forever be thankful this opportunity to stand in a larger universe and I encourage others to do so as well. Are they perfect, no, but compared to the ST, they're a definite godsend.

If you didn't get into the Legends content...Now's the time.

'Cause I foresee regardless of the promises JJ and LF are dishing out, that IX will end on a relatively predictable, forgettable note.

 

https://m.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/r...ars-announcements_us_5b609152e4b0de86f49b5ef4

Pretty funny read. Be honest. Who here donated some pretend money?

 

Actually as we've gone over before if the people who didn't like it gave it 1 star rather than zero stars then they'd really crash the RT score into the 20's.

 

The Force Awakens Director , JJ Abrams, issued an apology to Evangeline Lilly today.

https://www.rte.ie/entertainment/20...or-j-j-abrams-apologises-to-evangeline-lilly/

This is the second instance I believe these 3 have had to comment on a situation like this. There was also the Alice Eve situation.
https://www.hypable.com/star-trek-into-darkness-writer-apologies-for-alice-eves-underwear-scene

 

I still don’t think I would like TLJ but they could salvage 9 for me by having Luke in TLJ be a clone. It allows the story to continue in a fulfilling way even if I don’t like how characters were treated in TLJ.

Won’t happen but would allow Luke to found a new jedi school, train Rey, Kill Kylo and setup other tales with his jedi students.

Like some others here I am taking the multiverse approach with Legends being my preferred arena


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MODified: Enough already. We will discuss your relentless misuse of this thread in the Unban Request forum.

 

Literally bring back Filoni's time portals and boom. Marvel-verse it lol. Problem solved. Convenient fix haha

 

That's the easiest way. They better do it.

 

please no time travel.

...but I am okay with "it was a dream."

 

I think even if, in all likelihood, nothing changes and this is the official canon we have- like it or lump it- there's nowt stopping folks from preferring their own canon, Legends, or even fanfic. I never thought I'd prefer my own fanfic sequels but I do. It's a personal choice any of us can choose to make.

 

Me in 2013: We should give them a chance to make something other than the current EU because there's too much bad stuff that's accumulated over the past couple of decades and Lucas didn't manage it well and there's way too many Skywalker children and granchildren and...

Me in 2018: Aww geezus *****. Never mind.

 

Never in my wildest imagination did I expect a 'pin the tail on the donkey' approach to film-making from LFL Disney. Most of us would try again if we missed. The general philosophy with the sequels seems to be '**** it, that's close enough', whether it be the story-telling, diversity, treatment of characters and their story arcs, or any number of other things.

 

I'm usually a defender of the ST but honestly, upon first viewing of TLJ it was AMAZING, and when I viewed it at home alone with no hype around it, I found some issues hard to stomach. At its core, it's a movie that is trying to "defy expectations, subvert the universe", but does everything to reset things into an OT paradigm of "small band of rebel heroes".

The PT and TCW managed to have protagonists in a place of power and not desperation, and still have arcs, be heroes, etc. Why is it such a necessity for heroes to be underdogs that are bombed to crap? I'm still trying to tell myself the FO is a comparatively minor force that's just intimidated a lot of worlds and fleets that weren't prepared, and without a central government, can't coordinate. That's the only way it flies for me, really. TBH, lowering the stakes was a good call in TFA (wannabe Empire vs wannabe Rebels who are kinda sorta supported by the NR), but in TLJ it's all reversed into ESB status.

I really really like what they're doing with the canon stuff around the 6-episode saga - Anthology films, comics, novels, partially Rebels, I've enjoyed very much. Sadly the ST, while enjoyable to watch, doesn't gel together with the rest that well IMO. Certainly no marathon material, my binges will, in whatever order, always include eps 1-6, and that's that.

 

To be honest, we had all this before.
New Movies and a good portion of Fans are unhappy with them. Other Media establishes the World of this new Movies more and more. And over the Years the Fans who once hated these Movies begin to feel nostalgic about them.
And i guess thats what will also happen to the ST.

Im not a friend of TLJ not at all. But Maybe people like Dave Filoni and others of course, can bring us some goods to this Era of the SW Universe after all.

 

You may well be right in the case of some fans, and maybe just maybe TLJ will look better in the context of what we get in IX, but I despise the prequels today as much as I did when they came out.

R1 however I love. So it's not as if I think all the new films are bad; it is possible to make a great SW film in the new era. They just need to try harder IMHO.

 

It's almost but not quite entirely different. Lucas movies are his own and it's his story, then his TCW series. Everything else that was attached was based on his Star Wars but wasn't actually his story. So it's those 6 movies that create one complete story. Nothing else is required past that.

The ST are just going to be 3 movies of many to come. If anyone doesn't like them then there will be plenty more over time. The ST in the Disney form (as opposed to Lucas' stories) are the aforementioned requels (remake/resets that double as sequels). So the ST is based on Lucas' Star Wars but they don't fit into the ethic and drive of those movies.

Additionally the ST has had two writer/directors who wanted completely different sequel trilogies so there is no internal consistency within that trilogy as well as not with Lucas' movies.

In the case of Lucas' own story what has happened is that with more movies coming and it not being contained to just the six movies people can more easily accept that was his story and that others will follow.

 

This is true. People forget that Luke technically killed over three hundred thousand sentients on the Death Star. Still, this was a planet killer used for terror, and so I give him a pass for that. I prefer Luke killing Yuuzhan Vong in the EU to his foolish decisions with Ben Solo.

Oh, yeah. Vader was a mass murderer who killed coldly with no more emotion than a machine. Can't say the same about Sidious.

 

I have to agree with you here. I really liked R1, think of TFA as average/too plain, but I cannot stand TLJ. I wasn't too much of a fan of the PT though I liked ROTS but that was mainly because I wanted to see a climactic battle of Yoda and Sidious. I just don't understand how the can hit the mark on a off shoot like R1 but fumble so badly on structure of the ST. I can hope they right their ship with episode 9 but I think its to far gone and if they make the ST a 4 parter because they have 2 hours to actually progress the characters in so many ways I feel it will be a impossible task. Also the additional cash grab because of no sense of direction over the first 2 movies I will not contribute too.

 

I doubt they can salvage the ST at this juncture, but we'll see. Well, R1 had John Knoll and a lot of creative minds, such as Chris Weitz and Tony Gilroy, behind it. They originally wanted it to be a war movie, as opposed to the heist/war film we have, but I prefer what we got. Jyn takes time to develop into her role as the crew's leader, as opposed to being more anti-Imperial as she was in the original version. I also prefer Tarkin using the Death Star to kill Krennic as opposed to Vader Force-choking him. We can say that the situation "blew up in his face." Lol. Krennic may not be successful, but he's a more interesting character than Hux, Ren, or Snoke. Perhaps one reason I like R1 is because it very much feels like both a CT film and a prequel. Well, technically it is a prequel, but despite being New Canon and all, I like the idea of the Death Star needing kyber crystals, and I like to imagine that Bail Organa and Mon Mothma are their EU selves, as if Galen Marek had rescued them from the Death Star, but they don't know what the station's function is until Cassian is informed.

Yeah, well, Solo was disposable. If Episode 9 is not good, then people may have a tougher time justifying the ST than people have with the PT. I think the prequel films are okay. Nothing wonderful. But I can enjoy them. TPM is visually satisfying, Jango Fett is interesting in AOTC, and ROTS is a dark ride. I don't really feel like TLJ is a SW film, and TFA is okay, but derivative.