ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

Kylo would also have some basic credibility as a villain if they'd just let him beat Rey, especially since they're now going to try and make him the big bad of the next film. But nope, Rian wanted to have it both ways, try and make him the top dog while doing NOTHING to show why we should take him seriously in that role. Also throw in Rian humiliated Hux whenever and wherever possible and what we have her is called lack of tension.

Neither of the two main villains left feel like a real threat to your hero, so why should we care or be invested? There's no fear for her at all now.

As for the milking scene, it also didn't help that they had that thing (which Rian made sure was a fat and disgusting looking as possible) turn towards Rey and made weird noises at her. That would be the equivalent of if, in the middle of a supposedly important Qui Gon or Obi Wan scene, they'd had them step in poop, or get hit in the head by a rock thrown by a kid. There's no reason for it and it only serves to make the hero look pathetic.

Also do not tell me that we needed THREE separate body humor gags/pratfall jokes with Finn right away, or a scene of BB-8 being mistaken for a slot machine, etc, but it "wasn't needed" to show Rey actually deciding not to kill Kylo, or escaping the Supremacy, because that's nonsense.

 

I feel like its a mixture of wanting to desperately show Rey is a strong women and Luke Skywalker syndrome.

Obviously in ANH Luke saved the day from using the force and he had very little training there, but did it because he is the hero. and i think thats kinda the same idea they are going with Rey where she is force sensitive but its more magical if she is just an ordinary girl discovering these powers.

But then there is also that fear people have that they are making women look weak, so they end up making them abit mary sue.

The image i always remember from TFA is when luke and Rey fight in the rain and Rey uses the force to bring the saber too her while Luke falls back with shock. Rey then stands there with the high ground because she has the saber.

 

Or as Hamill said, they'd needed to show Luke sloppily drinking alien boob milk, but not his reaction to Han Solo being dead. The final cut just avoids it entirely. "Where's Han?" cuts away to not be addressed. "What happened?" Rey left Snoke's ship offscreen. Left unstated that Rey left Kylo alive for him to fight and to kill and to lead the First Order for another day, or rather...moments later.

 

Yeah because lord forbid you give the character to properly process/grieve the death of his best friend, his brother-in-law, his sister's husband, the man who saved his life several times and who's life he saved as well, the man that he went to war with over and over and over again, the man who's son he was training, etc. Nah, that's not important, showing him pathetically drinking milk from a fat disgusting alien's boobs and it grossly trickling down his beard while he grimaces and the alien turns to Rey and moans in "suggestive" ways, THAT was far more important in Rian's mind I guess.

And lord forbid you give his and Han's fans time to process/grieve with him either for that matter.

It would have been SO MUCH better (obvious sarcasm) if, in ANH, they had cut out the scene of Luke finding his Aunt and Uncle's charred bodies and his reaction to it, or flipping out at Obi Wan's death and then grieving afterwards, or in ESB if they cut out his lamenting the reveal of who his father truly was, or him being by Yoda's side as the latter dies, etc. Imagine if GL felt like such basic emotional scenes "weren't needed?" I personally cannot, nor do I want to.

 

I think the problem of the milking scene was the way it was portrayed, not the concept itself. It was filmed from a very grotesque/hilarious pov than from a naturalistic pov. That diminished Luke and also the practice of milking animals as a way of living.

It’s like Finn being a janitor and that being used as a punchline, because that is such a hilarious job. /s


RE: Rey’s character arc being about “self-discovery” – that was already her arc in TFA. No need to repeat that.

What I think was the point of her arc in TLJ was Rey eliminating her remaining self-doubt and assert herself as the Hero, with capital H, in which she had to rely on her own and not seek approval/help from others.

But while the concept of that was very much present, emotionally, it was lacking in the writing. IMO. Mostly because there is no scene of her expressing self-doubt, or conflict in her goals (that I remember, correct me if I’m wrong).

I mean, Luke in ESB actually expressed self-doubt, like asking Yoda if the darkside is stronger, like complaining it was impossible for him to lift an X-Wing. Rey never really demonstrates doubt in her abilities or her role. The idea of her not knowing her place comes mainly from Kylo in his attempt to neg her, which goes to my long list of beefs with this movie where a male character quite literally dictates the supposed journey of the main female character without the latter ever having the chance to express herself.

What she does prominently demonstrate is confusion and desperation in her assigned mission (as she didn't go to Luke because she individually thought he ought to be the galaxy saving hero, she went to Luke because that was part of the Resistance goal - and became her assigned mission). Which resulted in Luke being a jerk and she still wanting to do something. That doesn’t necessarily convey self-doubt, it conveys a character that is just directionless and lacks guidance. In which you can say her character arc was realizing “welp, nobody is going to help so I’ll just do it my way!”, which is fine but that was already the concept of her character in TFA. That hardly feels like an evolution. It’s just Rey going back to her old self-sufficient habits. I would’ve expected after TFA her character would have to learn to trust others and humbly accept others' help if she wants to reach higher goals. Guess not.

 

Also the whole "who am I/self-discovery" plot is something that tends to be applied more to female characters than male ones from what I've seen. And it's kind of not all that interesting to me anymore. For example, I saw this kind of plot done far better 20 years ago with Mulan, and that was an animated Disney movie.

Why not let Rey actually BE a character of her own as opposed to wasting two movies (at least) just getting her towards being a character of her own? Especially since she's been less of a character and more of a glorified pinball that is used/put in whatever situation and given whatever POV that the plot needs her to have with little regard to rhythm or reason.

 

I personally can’t believe an entire movie of Rey begging Kylo and Luke in turn to give her purpose in life passed the SJW litmus test LF supposedly administers to SW projects. Were KK and the SG sleeping during that part of RJ’s presentation?

 

You know what female SW character had a really believable character arc, Ahoska. She's a far more interesting female hero than Rey is.

 

I’m with you 100 percent on this. It seems like there could have been a lot of evidence that suggests it would have gone that way.


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Looking all all the women in TLJ, it's hard to see what the message is here:

Leia - The strongest female character in the saga. Her character is deleted from the movie, and put into a coma, only to wake up by the end of the movie, and never once try to use the Force. Could have been amazing for Leia to realize she's really powerful. Could have been amazing for Leia to realize she's the hero she's been waiting for and doesn't need her brother to talk to her own son.

Holdo - Leia replacement who's epic sacrifice is made largely hollow and pointless. The FO show up on Crait as if she didn't do a damn thing. No one mentions her brave sacrifice again. Her actions are largely deleted.

Phasma - nuff said. She literally shows up just for Finn to kill her. There's absolutely no effort to characterize her, or make her seem threatening or powerful in any way.

Paige - probably the only hero in the movie and she's killed off in the first 4 minutes.

Rose - spends the movie applying her own sense of ignorant justice on Finn. First she tasers him without knowing his story. Then she educates the guy who was literally a slave just yesterday, on why child slavery is immoral. Then she spends the next 18 hours telling Finn to pick a side to fight, and when he finally does, she calls him a dummy and tells him to save what he loves - which is what he was trying to do all along.

And Rey. Spends the movie begging the men in her life, to tell her what her place is in the world, so that she can apparently realize that she's her own hero. When one of them ignores her, she then tries to save the soul a genocidal, patricidal maniac who 12 hours prior tried torturing her as he held her down and told her he can take what he wants from her. This is all ignored because she's kind of attracted to him. Rey arc is defined in the culmination Throne Room fight, where Rey is literally deleted from the movie because watching her make choices on her own would be boring. She later casually just shows up in a completely different state of mind, and saves the day by easily lifting an entire mountain using the force with no struggle at all. The entire last act of the movie is from the POV of the evil guy she has a crush on who she tried and failed to save.

yeah...these characters suck. I have no idea how this all passed the test.

EDIT: I was just thinking...man...what IF somehow Phasma noticed Finn and Rose escaping to Crait and she quietly follows them. She doesn't tell the FO, she just wants personal revenge. Throughout the film, we keep seeing Phasma getting closer, as Finn continues to want to 'run away'. That is, until he makes his choice, and confronts her. Could have been amazing.

 

One thing that bugs me about Rey’s portrayal in TLJ, and it’s the same complaint I have with some (well, many) anime female characters, is the excessive focus on their humbleness. It drives me nuts.

Rey discovers she has these amazing powers and her reaction to it is being very super humble about it. Heck it drives her to tears. “I don’t know what to do with this.” Really, girl? You just discovered you can levitate objects like the Jedi with no effort and you cry about it? Get out. Had she been a male character, her reaction would be “woohooo I can do a lot of things!”. And probably feeling too self-important and getting their ass kicked as a result. Because, you know, that’s relatable.

This wasn’t much present in Luke because Luke constantly required tremendous effort to do minimal Force work in the first two movies. It didn’t however stop him from being overconfident at some point, which of course resulted in him getting his ass royally kicked. Rey comes in with a completely different set up that should’ve resulted in a different arc, but all we get is a character who just very humbly hops from plot point to plot point, as she continues to distance herself from the audience

 

This theory makes so much sense, except... why would they change it to the cluster we got?

 

Agreed. The treatment of female characters in this film was AWFUL!! It shows just how poorly things were done when the best-portrayed female in the film, dies after like 5 minutes of screentime and no dialogue.

 

lol imagine if Rey were a man, and Luke and Kylo were women.

That story could never even get made. I don't think it's ever been made. A powerful male action hero begging an older woman to teach him how to kick ass and her refusing, and then going to a total psycho murderer of a woman roughly his own age and begging her to join him, and literally ******* crying when she refuses? The male action hero would be hated (certainly by men) for being so weak (conservatives would certainly call him a "cuck") and the women would be hated for refusing him, with all kinds of gender based insults hurled their way.

Cannot happen. Cannot make money. You think the alt-right hate TLJ as it is? Imagine if they switched the genders. War. It would be war.

 

Is Qi'ra a *** slave in Solo? I heard about the female **x robot.

If anything the Star Wars female characters are de-evolving. Existing just to support the men in increasingly terrible ways.

Beyond The Last Jedi and the portion of responsibility bore by one Mr. Johnson, it's gotta stop company-wide. And now all their current and upcoming tv shows are male led of top of that.

 

Qi'ra is, indeed, implied to be Dryden Vos' (the main antagonist) 'intimate' slave. She herself is pretty badass in a couple of scenes, eventually killing Vos, but there's still an element of 'subservience' around her character even to the end.

L3 (the robot) is actually pretty decent. She and Lando aren't in a relationship, she's an emancipated droid who tries to start a droid rebellion, and has a tragic death scene. Some people find her annoying, but I was one who enjoyed her short time in the film.

Other female characters in Solo included a giant worm crime boss in the vein of Jabba (yay), a cool mercenary who's killed off in lieu of a male mentor (boo), and a really awesome bounty hunter/rebel who's revealed to be female in the last act (yay). So a mixed bag overall.

 

Yes, there have been one or two missteps (particularly with Rey in TLJ) but to suggest that LFL has continuously misrepresented women is ridiculous. Qi'ra, Nest, Rey in TFA, Jyn, Mothma, Leia, Hera, Aphra, Sloane, Ahsoka, etc, are all great women characters.

 

Another thing about the Andy figure, he's a metaphorical character through which other characters experience change in their lives. He is an Angel, not a man.

He's a story others tell - which is more analogous to a biblical tale than to a straight up protagonist. We never know Andy, really. We only know what others know OF him. We know he is good, and we know he performs miracles. And we know if we have the courage to follow him we will find our way to heaven (the beach at the end).

He's God.

If that's how the writers intend Rey to turn out, then they have failed, and this ST is a complete disaster.

The main character in Shawshank is really Red. He is the man who changes his life, finds hope and redeems himself. He is symbolic of all mankind.

Andy has no arc. He never redeems himself. He never grows. He's perfect. A paragon. He only has trials. He suffers so that others may be inspired.

Unlike Rey, Andy is also a narrated experience. He's a 'story' shared by others as a parable.

If Rey is Andy, then she truly is a non-protagonist.

Can't wait for IX, where everyone in the universe huddle around and speak in hushed tones about the goddess Rey who came to save them.

Blech.

Comparing this ST to the magnificently written Shawshank is a bit laughable. Just my opinion.

 

Yes, I also don’t think female characters are necessarily devolving in Star Wars, but I would exclude Qi’ra from the list of good female characters.
I think the EU is doing most of the work when it comes to good female characters. Also the animated shows. RO was also good with Jyn and Mon Mothma.

 

Agreed, the Films could definitely look to the EU for ideas for good female characters, though Jyn and Enfys Nest were awesome.

 

I think Qi'ra was a good represetnation for a female in the environment she was in. She's in an autocratic environment where she has to be subservient to someone until she makes it to the top. Crucially she isn't content with her station - she's trying to make her way to the top.

 

I actually don't think thats true at all. i could see a male character asking an older women to teach him how to use mystical powers. and i honestly don't think it would have been a big deal. infact i think they would make the older women much stronger then luke was and no one would care if it made the male character look weak in comparison. and i even think they would have him go to try and get the female villain to join him and again no one would care because no one feels pressure to make a male character look strong.

Look at the empire strikes back. luke was pretty much shown up by Yoda and went off to fight Vader and failed. who looks back at that movie and thinks luke was made to look bad?

 

As much as I liked Solo in general, I do think it would have been better if Qira had ended up actually being at the top of Crimson Dawn, instead of Maul showing up.