ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

Good to know Rey was struck by Kylo's sexy eyes as much as his sexy abs. Now I'm convinced they're soulmates and complicated enemies instead of a shallow relationship built on disregarding the murder and mutilation of her friends.

 

I actually agree that the "sense of humor" in TLJ is a bit off. It's like there's something almost subtly nasty about it (like Luke's "got milk?" moment).

But I don't object to Luke being cynical after losing his nephew to the dark side. As I've said before Luke's optimism is bolstered in the OT in the following ways:
- he doesn't majorly fail; even his "failure" in ESB is a set-up to getting his father back just like he wants; it's how he learned his father is still alive (that's positive ultimately)
- Luke is able to do the "impossible" and save his father, and thus didn't have to face the scenario in which he can't save him and has to kill him
- basically Luke has been VERY successful, and with Vader everything was in his favor because Anakin loves Luke and a restoration of love/family is the key to bring him back (it's the perfect set up for a good outcome)

I don't believe Luke has failed majorly before. With Ben, he can't save him. He can't kill him. He failed to prevent the worst outcome. He lost him. That is incredibly crushing and if one's used to succeeding, a failure like that could be all the more crippling as one may not have very effective coping skills to deal with that level of failure (they never needed to develop them before). Luke is hard on himself for having been arrogant--so before this happened it seems likely that Luke was confident and still in his "I always succeed" way of being.

Basically this is the one thing that would break Luke and make him cynical. If Ben hadn't been family, I don't think Luke would have taken it so hard and the outcome would have been different.

I know that RJ could have tried to go with a course of Luke was searching for answers. But I don't really care which way he went there. In a way, since Rey is the hero of the trilogy, she kind of has to be the one who finds whatever answers there are.

One thing I didn't like was how Luke seemed to imply he hadn't even read the ancient Jedi texts. Yoda suggested they are just really boring, which is perhaps why Luke didn't read them. I thought Luke might have you know read them looking for answers and then cynically decided they have nothing to offer (more fitting than not even reading them). I saw Luke as a bit more studious than this. If anything, the texts could have been "triggering" as he has projected his own sense of hopeless failure on the Jedi overall, seeing them entirely negatively (so reading the texts of how they started would probably just make him feel sick inside).

And downplaying the texts seems weird. They are pure gold to Rey. She needs the information in them and I'm sure will have studied them thoroughly between movies.

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A simpler way to put my argument about Luke: Achilles' heel. What happened hit Luke's one major vulnerability.

 

When you do something that deserves to be mocked - it should be.

This.

 

No, I don't buy it. First of all, LF's "brilliant' idea for how to bring the character back after 30+ years is to make him a miserable bitter failure who's life work is in ruins, was already a fatal mistake imo. Especially since it's in service of nothing more than an OT rehash on top of it all.

Second I DON'T believe that after everything that he lost and suffered in the OT that what happened with Kylo would "break him" this much. Sorry but that's a conceit that I will never buy into it, EVER!! Especially since the film couldn't be bothered to give us proper context for, well anything, really.

Third, Luke COULD have done any number of things about Kylo and Snoke. It's a fallacy to argue that he was "stuck." He CHOSE, to do absolutely nothing. To run away like a coward and abandon everyone else and leave them to try and clean up HIS mess. Sorry, but he gets no sympathy from me there either.

Fourth, I don't buy that the man who refused to give up on Darth freaking Vader, the face of evil who'd been butchering people across the Galaxy for DECADES, and WON in the end, would see his nephew (who seemingly hadn't actually DONE anything at that point) as "irredeemable" to the point that he'd contemplate murdering him in his sleep. Nor do I buy this notion that Kylo is "too far gone" of Vader wasn't.

Fifth, Rey ISN'T the hero of the trilogy now, according to Rian Kylo is. She's a prop in HIS story in TLJ (Her getting sidelnine for most of the climax is a perfect encapsulation of this). Also they didn't need to completely trash the old heroes and write them woefully OOC just to make new ones, that's the height of lazy and uncreative writing.

Sixth you know who did this better, George Lucas. The OT was Luke's story, but Obi Wan and Yoda actually got to be proactive and do heroic things and contribute, etc. They didn't just wallow in self-pity like Luke did. Also Lucas did the whole "hero fails hard in the second film" far better as well. Basically th ST is a pale imitation of what he already accomplished essentially.

Etc.

Sorry, but this entire premise was just a poorly-conceived mess on every level, and the execution was godawful on top of it all.

 

Then Rey, who never ever ever truly fails should be the most arrogant character in the universe in the next movie. And her failure in the future should be comparatively tenfold that of Luke in the future.I`d love to see her humbling. Instead she is almost certainly locked and loaded to save the universe and restore the Jedi Order in her sleep. Without the slightest effort on her part.

In terms of Luke finally "taking his place in history" due to the force puppet show that bought 5 minutes for 20 people, I just can`t even. I`m sure stunt Jedi number 7 did something more significant and impressive than that during the Clone Wars. And I know Luke did better in the OT. Because if TLJ-Luke was the highpoint of the character, he would never have become a character I even remotely liked, let alone my favourite.

The remarks about lip-wibbling Kylo the perpetual victim I almost find funny. That makes him sound even more of a wimp than the movie already did. If I think about it, the character had his introduction scene in TFA and it`s been pretty much downhill since then. Maybe that is the reason they made Hux into such a clown you can`t take seriously. If you put someone like Tarkin next to Kylo, even as a non-force-user, they would eat Kylo alive.

I actually think Kylo belongs truly in the grey - his Ben-side appears to be a whiny, entitled brat so I don`t really see him on the light side but he is too weak and wibbly for the darkside. The guy inherited nothing from his parents. Even Anakin could be a cunning warriror and had a heroic side. Padme had a heroic side. I think Shmi had a heroic side. Han and Leia sure did. Luke did in the OT. Kylo appears to be a walking add for "one of these things is not like the other".

 

@Thrawn082 - you seem to be disregarding Luke's mental space. It's not that Luke cannot do anything--it's that Luke has crippled himself. I mean I guess it *could* be that he can't do anything as I don't know if he could have defeated Snoke alone and Kylo certainly would have sided with Snoke against him (he can't reach Kylo), which would put him back in the position he doesn't want to be in (he doesn't WANT to kill his nephew).

Also you are wrong about Kylo being the hero of the trilogy (I don't know if I even need to add IMO?). Maybe you don't like what it's doing with Rey and Kylo, but objectively Rey is the Force hero of this trilogy. But I guess people can go on telling themselves she's not and watch how she solves the Force problem in IX in whatever way she does, emerging victorious. After that it will be difficult to keep up these "Rey isn't the hero of the trilogy" arguments which all to me seem to be based in dislike of Kylo (sorry, but they do). RJ never said Kylo was the hero and not Rey. He said Rey and Kylo are ALMOST co-protagonists or something. "Almost" is not an empty word there and it refers precisely to the throne room scene which is best described as them ALMOST being co-protagonists, before Kylo goes back to full antagonist.

Lastly, one must trust Luke's judgment. He can't save every single person from the dark side. He was able to save his father because in those circumstances he held the key to doing it (he WAS the key). He doesn't have a key to save Ben. He can't save Ben, or couldn't. That's why he responds differently. In ROTJ Luke sees (and we know it's not just normal sight, it's guided by the Force) that he can bring Anakin back. He can see the pathway and it's clear and strong enough that he believes in it. It's possible he sees no such thing with Ben because it ISN'T THERE. Luke couldn't prevent this. He can't control Ben's choices. He can't save someone who won't respond to him.

Though granted my thoughts on the above are based in Luke's decision of trying to save Vader not being some blind idealism. I think Luke is smarter than that. I don't think he's this person who will just try to save everyone when he doesn't think it can work. That would be stupid.

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Anyway it seems to come down to if people see/buy this Achilles' heel aspect of Luke or not. I buy it because in ROTJ Luke is banking on saving Vader or dying trying. Although he has his moment where Vader succeeds in provoking him to rage, he recovers himself and goes back to his ideal. He would rather die than try to kill his father. Luke's weakness is family and loved ones (his attachments). It always was. And I don't underestimate the toll it would take if there is no ideal outcome (there is bad and bad). Luke is an idealist and there is no ideal here.

And it's also different because he would have felt far more responsible (Ben is his nephew not his father, and his student). He would feel responsible in more of an uncle-like way (a sibling's child is closer to being like one's own child than one's own parent) and in the way of a teacher.

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@Alliyah Skywalker - I think it goes without saying the Rey and Luke have different personalities. Rey is under confident and feels out of her depths when it comes to the Force. Luke was always presenting his confidence about how he can do it, he can't be a Jedi, Ben tell him I can--ouch I hit my head--tell him I'm the one, I'm good at this stuff, I can take on Vader when I don't know what I'm doing, I can save my friends from him, I can do it ALL! I'm gonna be a Jedi just like my father! I won't fail! I'm not afraid! I CAN CAN CAN.

It just seems so obvious that people are different, have different personalities and respond differently to the same or similar events? Rey has a much more humble personality than Luke IMO--I've referred to her as "humble to a fault" before (Miss I'm No One from Nowhere and gosh I can't be a hero in this Force drama.. Luke, you do it. Ben?)

ETA: I don't think Rey needs to be more humble; I think she needed to be a bit less humble because her sense of not being enough in this is what leads to her mistake in TLJ. If she'd been less humble she might have hit upon that it's kind of up to her. No one is going to be the big Force hero for her. If she thinks the galaxy needs the Jedi back, she has to do it herself.

 

One thing about Luke so quickly wanting to kill his nephew that kind of grates is that the story was literally done in Legends. Instead of looking at that story to see what worked and what didn't, all indications are that they ignored it entirely. I haven't read that story, but I know that Luke tried to save his nephew, even after after his nephew had actually fallen to the dark side and committed atrocities. That is in character, it makes sense. I know that Luke ultimately realized he couldn't kill his nephew without falling to the dark side. This also makes sense to me, because it reflects honest contemplation. Luke didn't react without thought. The problem with it appears to be that he put it on his niece to solve the problem of his nephew.

If LF had done their homework, they could simply look at this timeline and learn from what worked and what didn't to craft a better story for the cinematic universe. Luke Skywalker doesn't jump to murdering dark side family members even after they're evil, so certainly it wouldn't happen before they're evil. Luke Skywalker wouldn't get cynical before any attempt to save the family member. It would be a slow process, after failing multiple times to save the family member and seeing the ghastly consequences, feeling that weight. Then in their version, have Luke come up with some answer that doesn't resort to making a different family member kill her own twin (which sounds super messed up on paper, given that Luke is a twin and I don't believe he would ever kill Leia). If they want to tell that story, it's a complex one, and it can't be told through three flashbacks of the same scene with zero context. Perhaps it was simply too complicated of a story to tell when Luke isn't supposed to be the star of the show anymore.

 

I think it’s just weird narratively that we go from seeing Luke realize his mistake in fighting Vader and overcome his darkside and in the process save his father and finally become a real jedi to the next time the story features him, have us realize that he failed the exact same test off screen immediately afterwards and now actually want to end the jedi.

It’s like saying nahhhh he really didnt pass that test in EP 6 afterall. Sike.

Horrible narrative.

 

And that`s what bugs. Super-awesome Rey who can do everything without any struggle has the typical saint fault, she doesn`t yet realize how super-awesome she is and how everything revolves around her. So the story is about getting her even further up on that pedestal. I hate those kind of stories. Those characters are the worst for me, even worse than what Luke was. So of course she will have complete success in episode 9 and bring back the Jedi Order in a triumphant way while Luke who struggled his way through the OT to earn that ends up down in the mud, an eternal failure who couldn`t hack it. Why on earth would that endear me to Rey and rooting for her?

Though I would like to see how the response would be if ten or so years down the line they did a follow-up story where they destroyed the Rey-character the way they did Luke.

It`s been a while since I read those books but as far as I remember it wasn`t that cut and dry. At a certain point Jaina herself made the choice to undergo special training with the explicit purpose to confront and defeat her own darkside brother. Luke helps her in that final confrontation so you could say he sanctions her mission but he doesn`t give her a kill order because he wants to chicken out.

He could have killed Jacen earlier in one of the books when he found him torturing Luke`s own son but even then, when he was really enraged by this act, he couldn`t. It was hard for Jaina too but she kinda took it as her mission also.

 

Imagine all this would have been seen on screen. I'd have walked out.

 

LUKE (to REY): "You opened yourself to the dark side for a pair of pretty eyes."

This is in The Director and the Jedi documentary.

It didn't make it into the final movie.

Thankfully.

 

Naw. It's hard to look away from a train wreck.

 

Rey is the hero of this trilogy? Um….I seem to remember her character being irrelevant on Crait. Her appearance in the 3rd act of the movie seemed to be an afterthought. You could cut Rey entirely from Crait and nothing would change. Brilliant screenwriting!

 

It's almost scary how tone death RJ is showing to be. That's really really creepy, especially given to timeline.

And it's not only a bad message to send survivors of abuse, it's very dangerous. Survivors are told all the time, by friends, family, and sometimes themselves that they need to reach the goodness in their abusers. That's so damaging and dangerous, and now Rey is shown reinforcing that.

 

That's factually incorrect. Without Rey the survivors would have been barred exit from the cave by the huge boulders blocking their way. They would have eventually been run down by stormtroopers and likely all killed.

 

I totally understand criticizing Rey being less in the movie at the end, but I also know that it doesn't transform her to not being the Force hero of the trilogy. And I know Luke is dead now, so not like he's going to become the main hero. Kylo is the main villain. There just isn't any question about this for me. The issue for Rey is she's sharing the trilogy with the OT 3 and I think it does take away from her character a bit. Luke had a major presence in TLJ.

I think Han actually worked as a better support character for Rey and Finn. But I still felt he overshadowed a bit as well. But that could be just me.

 

I genuinely don't understand why Leia couldn't move the rocks if Rey hadn't been there... Similarly, Chewie piloted his ship, she wasn't needed for that...

 

I would have gladly traded Leia's Mary Poppins for her force mom

I would have gladly traded Leia's Mary Poppins in space for her force moment being the boulder moving scene.

You beat me to it.

 

True? If Leia can do that, why can't she move boulders?

 

DIdn't the last page just say that according to these 'leaks' Luke helped Rey move the boulders. That she gives a side eye, and is surprised she was able to do that and realizes that Luke is helping her. If that's true, than Rey really wasn't needed there at all. Luke could have taken care of Kylo on the battlefield, and moved the rocks himself.

 

Once again, I bring exhibit Z:

 

If only someone was with the group that had strong Force powers to move the rocks. It's too bad the audience didn't witness a character do such a thing.

 

That's pretty bizarre.

 

Don't know. She doesn't even attempt it so I assume she can't. Even if she could though they still need Rey. It's her binary beacon that locates them and if she wasn't there Chewie wouldn't have been there either since he'd still be waiting to pick her up. So they have no ship to escape in and they all die anyway.

The fact is Rey saves them.