ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

Well some of us did. I hated TFA for many of the same reasons. Rey is textbook overpowered character in both movies but TLJ takes it to new heights for sure.

 

If Luke was not present, the galaxy would still be under the reign of the Empire. I don't really know how getting rid of the Empire leaves nothing lasting. Yes then Empire 2.0 came in, but it's Star Wars. As long as there is Star Wars there has to be a war. War/conflict is a necessary condition for Star Wars. If there are Force characters as main heroes they need a challenge in the form of characters strong with the dark side.

I don't care about legacy period--I don't value characters based on if they left behind a meaningful legacy in their fictional universes. And yes if Rey is later revisited in a new trilogy 20 years from now with new young heroes she's not going to be the main hero (she'll have had her day), she could have messed something up, it could be she didn't make the galaxy a Jedi paradise for all time. But the galaxy is NEVER going to be a Jedi paradise for all time. The dark side is ever-present. There is no immunity. It will return. This is Star Wars.

 

While I agree that TLJ doesn't make Rey work for her power as it should have, I still don't see how she is more overpowered in TFA than Luke in ANH and Anakin in TPM. People seem to ignore how skilled they were in those films.

 

Yeah this all really annoyed me.

I didn’t need to see Rey escape from Snoke’s ship, but when you next see her shooting TIEs from the Falcon, it just seemed so slapped in and lazy.

And yes the whole boring Crait sequence didn’t need her. It looks like she was cut from it as she isn’t really in it until the end, when she lifts the mountain up. It’s all too easy and the whole ST is a lazy mess.


I love my XP-38.

 

Not the exact same one of Empire vs. Rebels. If the OT crowd had managed to build a Republic and a Jedi Order respectively and those came under attack from a new source, that would be something different to me. But Luke helping to end the Empire is worth zero to me if we have Empire 2.0 back. Then you might as well have kept Empire 1.0. What`s the difference? Does it matter if people are under the thumb of Empire 1.0 or Empire 2.0? If Luke had never been born, Palps might still be in power. So what?

At least in SW, I do. Otherwise it feels to me like I wasted my time rooting for them and watching them in the first place.

Noone expected a Jedi paradise. But if Rey makes an order entirely by herself, that already is a legacy and 100 % more than Luke will ever have. Unless her attempt fails too, she is personally responsible for the new darksider and the New New Republic gets overrun by Empire 3.0 after 20 years. I doubt Disney is gonna treat ITS new character with such disdain. You kill off any story potential with that character. Stories with Luke Skywalker in between trilogies now? A non-starter for many.

Luke in ANH wasn`t a martial arts specialist who could defeat multiple attackers on his own. Obi Wan had to save his butt in a little bar tiff. He wasn`t a master mechanic, didn`t speak R2 and Wookie and didn`t defeat Vader in lightsaber combat. He was a skilled Pilot. That is ONE strength. How is he extremely skilled in that movie? He even had help with his final accomplishment which had to do with Piloting.

Anakin in TPM was equally a skilled Pilot and a gifted mechanic, that is TWO strengths. Rey is fluent in every language needed, great at Piloting, great at mechanics, instantly masters the force and defeats the baddie in combat. In TLJ she, a desert dweller, can swim perfectly, shows no temptation to the darkside whatsoever, defeats a supposed Jedi Master (I know he isn`t but the movie pretends he is) in combat, is a super-gunner and lifts objects heavier than Yoda, the head of the old Jedi Order did and he did show strain, she did not.

Luke in ANH has nothing on Rey in TFA. Let alone TLJ. He would have needed to defeat both Vader and Yoda and only lost to Palpatine. And he would have levitated a Star Destroyer out of the swamp, putting his foot on Yoda`s neck and going "what are you gonna do about it, Muppet?" to compete.

 

I’d have liked to see at least a couple more Jedi survivors involved, maybe a dissident Imperial faction, and Leia communicating with unique species and groups. Progress the story.

 

Also Luke doesn't do Force Pull until ESB, Rey does it in TFA. Luke has to concentrate to lift a few small rocks and utterly fails to lift and X-Wing. And even Yoda has to close his eyes and concentrate to do it. Rey lifts have a mountain with ease and honestly looks bored with how easy it was. Also Vader would have killed Luke in ANH if Han hadn't come back and saved him at the last minute.

AT MOST, it isn't until ROTJ that Luke demonstrates anywhere close to the kind of power that Rey already has, and even then he still feels weaker than her at the end of the day. And Anakin also utterly fails to win in AOTC, and he was the literal chosen one. And in TPM, Anakin's biggest accomplishment happens by accident.

 

He flew the equivalent of a jet fighting in combat, and was one of the only to survive amongst experienced pilots. How is that not an extreme talent?

At the age of nine he is able to pilot and win a race that no human is normally capable of even competing in.

As for your other points, although I disagree with some of them, they address TLJ and my post specifically addresses Rey in TFA. So I won't respond to them.

 

Slamming this like button with a sledgehammer.

 

Sounds more like you don't want to discuss things logically and would rather an unopposed platform to be hyperbolic. And you had that platform previously. At least it's obvious now why you're so dismissive of people who don't completely despise the film and have positive and negative opinions of the film.

 

It`s still just one skill: piloting. Rey flew expert maneuvers with the Falcon to out-fly the Ties in TFA. And that came after her survival expert/combat/language expert skills. Oops, forgot mechanics. And before her uber-force skills. And her lightsaber combat skills. Rey in TFA handily beats Luke. She didn`t have the opportunity to be in a space battle in that movie but it is still clear she would have been second only to maybe Poe. Maybe.

All TFA-points. You didn`t respond to them either from my previous post.

 

Yoda, 900 years old, most powerful Jedi we know of, visibly struggles to lift these rocks:


Rey, a person with literally zero practical Jedi training, lifts these dozens of massive boulders without even seeming to care:


Maybe this is why people think she's overpowered?

 

Did Finn force download all his new piloting skills in between movies?

This might have made sense had they jumped time and went with Finn already being a member of Paige's squad like the earlier draft had him be.

 

This is the thread you get for this now... not The Sanctuary and not The Cave. Use this thread according to its rules and stay on topic.

 

There is nothing that suggests she is more competent at flying than Luke in ANH. You've just made that assumption she would be second only to Poe with no evidence what-so-ever, when Luke would actually be second-only to Poe.

Her 'expert language' skills? I assume you mean the fact she lives on planet where her fellow inhabitants who she interacts with speaks other languages? I think I'm confident in dismissing bilingualism as an exceptional ability.

Regarding her physical abilities - she lives in a more dangerous environment than Luke and has used a staff to defend herself. The fact she is able to stand up against, merely on the back feet while he's not trying to kill her, and then catches him off guard does not make her an 'expert' in lightsaber combat.

 

It didn't require the defeat and total destruction of the OT generation, though. There can be conflict without the New Republic or Jedi Order being totally wiped out and the enemy taking control of the galaxy. There's a middle ground where it's a challenge but doesn't result in total destruction and defeat that requires the next generation to start over with practically nothing.

 

I agree. I wanted the ST to be new and different as well. I avoided TFA for a year because I figured it would be too much of a rehash for my tastes. I would have loved if it wasn't a massive war but more the galaxy is at peace-ish but it's a big galaxy and there are new darksiders rising and so on (in new ways).

I really don't understand why they had to rehash the OT to this extent. It's even more horrible when you have to have Age of the Republic and Age of the Rebellion and Age of the Resistance, in which the latter two are incredibly similar. And I feel like LFL doesn't get it, especially if they were surprised that Solo did poorly for a Star Wars film. It's not that we're fatigued with Star Wars. Many fans are fatigued with rehashing and nostalgia for its own sake. It feels also like being lazy on concepts just to milk this cash cow for all it's worth. I think the only reason Empire 2.0 is here is because the nostalgia of Rebels vs. Empire and wanting to live that experience all over again in a new form. But it's in old form.

I just don't think this way. I don't compare about who's legacy is better. I don't value characters based on legacy. Legacy as a concept is fairly foreign to me in terms of why I should care about it. I also didn't see them as treating Luke with disdain. I don't see it as killing off character potential either. I see Luke as a Force Saint for the future, and I wouldn't be surprised if his younger self is revisited in the future (maybe not near future).

I think if all they could do with Rey in the future is another rehash they probably shouldn't bother. I mean it's like rehash of rehash of original--yikes. It just sucks the magic out.

PS. I also don't see Rey as better than Luke. I guess she can feel like the T-X terminator model vs. the T-1000 or T-800, or something. But I don't see it that way. I can't comment on Rey's abilities without a finished story. Is there more to this? I don't know because the story isn't finished. I almost wonder if Rey's rapid Force ability thing is mainly so we don't have to watch the training again. I mean watching Rey learn HOW to lift rocks would bore me quite a bit since I had to watch Luke learn how to lift rocks. I appreciate the speed-up just for the sake of not having to go there again. So they used a shortcut of Rey acquiring skill through connection with Kylo. But I don't think the only reason can be to use it as a shortcut? I feel like there must be more to it. I also rather appreciate that Rey has different challenges than Luke and hope that IX gives her sufficient challenge with the dark side.

I also rather agree that Rey is a bit boring as a character or bland, but not as much as the other new characters (aside from Kylo and Hux). I don't know why so many Disney Star Wars characters seem to fall flat. Then there was Solo in which I found HAN bland. He's the blandest character in the movie, and the movie is about him. (Though I don't have many complaints about RO.)

 

I give a point when I detect a point to be given. I gave TLJ a point for world building. You brought in exegetical texts. Your exegetical texts, whatever they are, neutralize the necessary and sufficient implication from inside the film of what the Canto Bight scene accomplishes. If what you report is what Disney thinks, behind the scenes, in their exegetical texts, and there is no functioning time stamping occurring in the Canto Bight scene, then it is not world building. My standard is film must stand on its own, period, and the film, TLJ had a scene that is very challenging but does carry a kernel of real world reference and time stamp information. Therefore, the film, TLJ, itself, without any exegetics, *tries* to fit itself into a WW2 setting. It does it badly. It *tries*. I give it a point for *trying. If your exegetics were in the film, then the film would not have managed to provide a world building reference and time stamp. So someone screwed up by not screwing up TLJ even more than it is screwed up, with respect to world building.
To humor you: if I detect things not worth mocking, I address them with insufferable scrutiny.

 

No matter the reason, the thing of the matter is she comes in way more skilled than Luke in ANH at just about everything. Luke couldn`t defend himself against Tusken Raiders or some idiot in the cantina. He had to learn to be better, to handle himself over the course of three movies. Would ROTJ be helplessly pushed around by cantina guy? Of course not. That`s what makes it a compelling journey.

Rey has to learn nothing. She just comes ready-made with all necessary skills the plot could ever require of her. In both TFA and TLJ. That`s what makes her uncompelling, boring and overpowered.

 

But that wasn't minutes after her lowest point. It was minutes after she developed clarity (which came after her low point). She worked with Kylo to defeat Snoke, and then rejected Kylo's overture to join the First Order. I imagine she's accepted, at this point, that she's the main hope for the galaxy, and can't wait for either Luke or Kylo to step in. So really, she's just minutes after a major turning point in her character. A high point.

Was that executed as well as it could have been? I don't think so. But I don't think it's accurate to suggest that Rey, in the Falcon on Crait, has for no reason gone from low point (learning about her parents being nobodies) to a high point. She already overcame that shocking low point, worked with Kylo to kill Snoke, and then rejected him. She's now her own person, and is not relying on anyone else to help save the galaxy. She's in full agency mode there.

But yeah. I do agree that it's a lot muddier than it needs to be.

 

I don`t think they need to bother at this point. Everyone knows he ends up a failure and a coward so even if he has adventures or does more heroic stuff in between, it won`t matter. To me it is like a really stupid ending to a TV show or even just for a character on it, that makes me feel I wasted all the years watching them.

Luke didn`t die a hero to me, he is basically destroyed as a character so I have no interest in seeing more of him, no matter what he is like. In this version of events the character is dead to me, OT, ST and everything in between. He only lives in my continuity where the ST doesn`t exist. But that is not the Disney timeline so no movie/books/other media for me. Not now and not years down the line. I don`t change my mind on such things ever.

 

Urgh yeah, I agree that the supplementary texts don't adequately compensate for the information not being in the film. I believe I've said as much previously.

By the way, previous post you quoted was directed towards 2Cleva, not necessarily towards you.

Yeah, she doesn't get pushed around as much a Luke. I'm not sure that makes her 'overpowered'. Meanwhile he's able to pilot a jet fighter in military combat. I'm not sure the difference between them is as huge a you suggest.

 

Rey was able to pilot the Falcon without a co-pilot in military combat, so cool, let’s call Luke and Rey a wash on piloting. Now about all those other powers Rey has that Luke in ANH doesn’t...

 

Here's a list of enemies that could be the new threat to the Galaxy post-ROTJ:
1. The Yuuzhan Vong
2. Luke Skywalker turning to the dark side
3. Han and Leia's 1 out of 3 kids turning to the dark side, while the other 2 kids try to redeem or kill the 1 kid gone wrong
4. Abeloth, an all powerful being that has astonishingly never seen before Force power
5. Admiral Thrawn and the Chiss
6. A lost tribe of Sith that were deserted on a planet for 3000 years
7. Palpatine's secret apprentice never revealed before, targeted as Vader's replacement
8. The Nightsisters or some other order of Force users that are proficient dark side users
9. A coalition of the Hutts and all the scum and villainy in the galaxy, trying to take advantage after the Fall of the Empire
10. Some new threat that no one has ever thought of so far
11. Ahsoka Tano gone rogue and having established an anti-Jedi faction

And the list goes on. You don't want to reproduce something the old EU introduced? Fine, bring something new to the table, not Empire 2.0. The galaxy at the end of TFA (and even more so at the end of TLJ) is as if Luke had never existed at large. The only changes would be that Han, Leia and Luke would not be alive. Oh. Yeah. No, that's still the same now or will be very soon.

Yeah, no one is saying that they wanted to see 3 movies of the New Republic with the New Jedi Order, everyone holding hands and singing kumbaya for 6 hours. Of course there would have to be some kind of enemy to the galaxy after the events of ROTJ, and of course the dark side would emerge somehow. It is indeed there perpetually, and so is the light side. That does not explain why Luke was portrayed as a complete failure. A new threat would have been so much more interesting, and almost certainly with so much better storytelling and screenwriting.