ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

ANH is my least favorite of the OT but I would still rate the OT duels as a whole higher than the ST ones based on emotion involved.

 

Yah that is true. TFA might be a better "duel," but the ST in general is just too much cluster**** for me to take anything I see seriously.

 

I love the ROTJ duel, but I actually agree about the cutting to other fights. The scenes in the Deathstar 2 throne-room are timeless, yet after so many watches I tune out a little to the Endor stuff in-between.

I'm glad you clarified "beyond the emotional part" though. Luke/Vader/The Emperor is the emotional climax of the series Imo. It's interesting that there is somewhat of a power-level role-reversal relative to ESB as well, where it is now Luke who is holding back. There is a lot of tension and some sadness to watching the Skywalker father and son, Luke trying so desperately to reach Anakin. Almost every line of the dialogue between the three is quotable on it's own.
And the dramatic moment Luke gives in to darker emotions is epic.

I thought the TFA duel was decent. It is a bit rougher around the edges than what we have seen so far, but there is a sense of danger from the sabers, if that makes sense.
Critically, it is more the odd fact Rey is already so good more than the style of the fight itself, to me.

My favourite thing about the AOTC duel is a theory I have on the dual sabers moment. I feel the fact Dooku chops a green saber Anakin is using in two is a symbol of Anakin's lost potential to be a true Jedi in the trilogy. Like his progression will be cut short.

 

Yeah. For me, ROTJ works best when I have Episodes 1-3 as context. I know for a lot of people, they can ignore the PT and get the same effect, but I really can't. I don't particularly like the movie in general, but the Vader/Emperor/Luke stuff is the most important part of the film where my attention is focused.

I'll say the one thing I like about TFA, is that everyone in that duel is an amateur, so it gives it a more visceral feel. However, I didn't really find any of the choreography to be memorable, especially once the duel picks up and Rey and Kylo are fighting in a more "traditional" way.

 

I read a post the other day, in the lone SW facebook group I can still manage to stomach, that said those of us who like the PT got "spoiled" with those duels. How fancy they are and how "too choreographed" they are and that we are just not smart enough to understand what the ST duels are conveying.

The ST duels convey what exactly that I don't understand? Reylo? or that light and dark fought together for the first time? But for what? Survival in the moment. Kylo didn't take out Snoke to help Rey or the Resistance. He did it to help himself ascend and Rey mistakenly thought Kylo turned.

The post claimed there was no emotion (not sure what he was watching) or tension in the ROTS duel. Maybe no tension because we knew how it was going to end, but there was enough emotion to choke a horse.

 

The choreography of the PT duels perfectly reflect the Jedi and Sith of the Era. They were losing their spiritual anchor to the Force, but at the same time, they were at the top of their game in terms of the martial arts and ability to command the power of the Force. Being able to train in safety and continually perfect their fighting techniques would of course make their movements, faster, more graceful and fluid, because a Jedi is always refining themselves, physically, mentally and spiritually to become more attuned to the Force

 

RotS duel >>>>>> TLJ duel, in terms of emotion. As @wobbits says, Rey and Kylo aren’t fighting together for any deep emotional reason. It’s a gimmick, like almost everything else in the ST. “Ooohhhh dark and light fighting together!” [for no good substantive reason and they end as they begin anyway]. Obi and Ani were actually, substantively invested in each other as brothers. Obi raised Ani. He really loved him, based on a real bond and based on actually knowing him. Love doesn’t spring up over night because your torturer stood before you half naked. If I picture Obi and Vader fighting together against Sheev, that sounds like a deep hitting and emotional scene of dark and light coming together. Reylo has no substance, so you can’t credibly argue to me that their lightsaber battle is deep or emotional.

 

Kylo Ren shouldn`t be, he ought to have training in fighting with a lightsaber. Rey and Finn can be said to be amateurs in this particular area of fighting but Kylo, no way.

Fight choreography that feature Uwe Boll-like editing mistakes? Yup, I`m not understanding that from a movie with a SW budget.

 

I agree with your whole post, but just to be nitpicky I think part of Kylo killing Snoke was that the two motives conveniently converged - he would rather spare Rey who had shown some faith in him and kill Snoke who recently hadn't been as empathetic, and he wanted to take-over for himself. Rey had just misinterpreted his desire to get rid of and replace everything. I think it is supposed to be ironic that anything he felt for Rey was twisted into an excuse for more power.

 

Kylo had taken a direct shot to the mid riff from Chewbaccas bowcaster let’s not forget. No armour, nothing. He was mortally wounded, and that is going to affect his strength in a huge way.
In fact if I remember correctly, isn’t there a Clone Wars episode where Obi Wan has to take cover on a battlefield after being struck by blaster fire? He’s pretty much rendered useless because of it.

 

I have heard you say this about ROTJ before.
Personally I think the film is less consistent than ANH and ESB, but when it is good, it is really good.
I wouldn't love the PT as much without ROTJ. It was always really uplifting watching it around the time ROTS released.

I get this feeling as well, but like @Alliyah Skywalker mentioned it makes little sense when Kylo has trained as both a Jedi and a dark sider.
I can retroactively apply the fact that each duelist is supposed to be an avatar of light and dark, explaining the even fight, to salvage it somewhat.

The Revenge of the Sith duel was massive. Their conflict even destroyed the very environment they were fighting in, when their sabers damage the controls keeping the lava subdued. The chaotic lava is a pretty appropriate symbol of Anakin's turmoil. There is a narrative weaved into the fight as well, with the dark-side trope of the fight ultimately ending with Vader essentially defeating himself. And Obi-Wan's speech is perfect.

I don't think it is supposed to be emotional beyond Rey hating Kylo for what he has done.
They are just sworn enemies. TLJ doesn't continue it in the manner it should have. I don't mind a conflicted connection between the two in itself, but it isn't properly established by either film.

 

Opposite for me. I wouldn't love ROTJ without the PT. Anakin's entire life comes full circle for me in ROTJ. I do find it more enjoyable if I watch it immediately after ROTS tho. To see Anakin's fall and redemption right after is surprisingly powerful.

Yeah I agree. Kylo should be way more powerful than Rey. Hell, it was a struggle for him to even face Finn.

 

For me, the duels are more about the characters/emotions more than anything. So I don't need fancy choreography/flipping around as long as I care about who is fighting and why. It's why I like the Obi Wan/Vader ANH duel more than most seem to.

Now of course it'd be cool if they could do BOTH well, but thus far the films have struggled mightily to find that balance imo.

 

Without ROTS, I don't find much "emotion" in the ANH duel minus Obi-Wan's death. But I also find emotion in Qui-Gon's death and Obi-Wan's rage boiling because of it.

I'm OK with duels like Grievous, as it makes sense in a galaxy where Jedi actually exist that not every fight has to be some emotional connection. A little swashbuckling fun is fine. Hell, unless the Knights of Ren are Rey's siblings, I don't think the fight between them and her (if there is one) is gonna be that emotional, which is fine. The characters in the ST are not developed enough for their fights to either be emotional or really fun. That's my issue.

 

Duels can be a bit of a mixed bag. For me though, I'd say that the duels in Empire and Force Awakens stand high and above the rest of the series. Following that would be the end of ROTJ, the middle batch I'm rather indifferent on and firmly in last place would be the rave from Attack of the Clones.

And, if we were to move into the animated realm for a moment, Vader/Ahsoka, Ventress and the Nightsisters/Dooku, Maul and Savage/Sidious, Anakin/Bariss, Obi-Wan and Ventress/Maul and Savage, Obi-Wan and Adi Gallia/Maul and Savage are ones that really stick out to me. Clone Wars in particular did a great job crafting memorable confrontations.

 

The Force Awakens duel is barely even a duel. It's just Kylo Ren slashing repeatedly at Rey while she just blocks it. I get that it (like most of the film) was a direct response to the RLM crowd, with its complaints that the prequel duels looked like "they weren't even trying to hit each other," but it didn't exactly make for a riveting swordfight, IMO.

At least they tried with TLJ. It was a complete mess, and they probably should have just re-hired Nick Gillard, but at least they, uh, tried. I guess.

 

Sounds pretty interesting, but I think there's a fundamental problem with the idea of Snoke. When they inserted this super-powerful bad guy who is - for all intents and purposes, despite the Story Group's protestations to the contrary - a neo-Sith Master, they needed to explain where he comes from. He simply does not fit with the established six film story arc. The existence of Snoke seems like Abrams and Kasdan's compulsion to replicate the OT yet again, in this case by creating a Palpatine replica out of nothing.

I think it would have been far more elegant for the writers to get rid of Snoke entirely and to have Ben Solo/Kylo Ren be the person who founds the neo-Sith enemy faction.

 

Nick G did a great job! At this point I find I would rather watch Ewan and Hayden or Ewan/Ray/Liam in their duel rehearsals than a duel in the ST.

 

Yoda and Sidious fighting on top of speaker platform, that slowly lifts up in the center of the Senate Room, was one of the most powerfull moments in the whole saga, at least for me.



In that moment the whole PT came through me and led to this moment, when the Jedi and Sith crossed their sabers in the battle for the Republic, Democracy and Freedom right in the center of Senate Room.
The center of Senate Room was the most effective and genius place to make Yoda and Sidious fighting. Add to that the music, with trimpets, drums and epic chorus. I seriously consider this scene to be one of the greatest SW moments ever.

 

Chewie is once again a prop. He lost his life long friend two days ago to Han’s son. Chewie should be mourning and talking to Luke if not pleading for his help and talking about how leia is in desperate straits. The only good scene in the film to me is R2 playing Leila’s message. He and Chewie should have been pouring it on Luke. R2 had been with Luke for at least a decade and Luke says two words to him?


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Agreed. My two favorite instances of the Force Theme are so good because they are used during an important moment, and have meaning.

One of my favorite instances is when it plays the Force Theme whenever Luke is preparing to go to Bespin. It's important because Luke is making an awful decision that seemingly will lead to a terrible loss. The meaning behind the Force Theme being utilized in this scene is symbolic of it being played in A New Hope, another adventure to go on.

My other favorite instance of the Force Theme, or in this case, Funeral Pyre For A Jedi, is when it plays during Vader's funeral. The importance is self explanatory, and the meaning behind it being played in this scene is that Anakin is just as important in the story as Luke, and it was his actions as well as Luke's that led to victory at Endor.


TLJ plays the Force Theme everytime someone breathes

 

Agreed. As much as Luke was poorly-written in TLJ; if the Chewie I've imagined was there, he would've been the first to slap some sense into an old friend. Not faded into the background because the writers didn't know what to do with him.
R2 and 3P0, who were an essential framing device and mood-lightener of the OT, have been written as crude plot devices or forgotten about; while they repeat the mistakes of the PT with BB8 replacing R2 in being sold too hard to the audience (where the droid is just awesome and amazing because it's a protagonist, rather than rising above the mundanity and limitations of its form to really win our hearts).

 

Well they weren't trying to hit each other.

They were trying to kill each other which is a different thing altogether.

As PC said to call the confrontation in TFA a duel is a stretch. I don't see how it really compares to anything from the previous movies which actually are duels. Even the Empire duel which effectively only really becomes one at the end when Vader truly unleashes on Luke was still one for Luke if not Vader to that point.

Besides that all the rest were actual duels with trained Jedi and Sith using the ritual styles handed down from thousands of years of combat techniques. For those who think they are denigrating it when saying it looks like a dance they need to realize that is actually a compliment. It is a dance in many ways. A dance of wills, of Lightsabers of the Force users who can "see" into the future and block their opponents strike before they strike.

You keep going through the dance like musical chairs. The combatant who blinks and does not hear when the music stops is the one who gets sliced through.

 

IMO, this stems from a big problem with the ST, and specifically how TFA sets everything up, and more generally the lack of planning and forethought that went into the story.

This approach of throwing characters into situations - without much idea about how they'll develop in those, but with the general idea that they will develop - might work for Abrams' TV shows. However, with self-contained stories like feature films, it's a recipe for static and prop characters like what Chewbacca ends up being in TLJ.

Different writers and directors will have different focuses, and Johnson clearly cares little for many characters other than a few. There's simply a reduced amount of time in feature films compared to TV seasons.

There is a potential solution, which is to have a time skip and then write some characters out of the story or just the main plot. The series entries end up being interconnected self-contained stories.

Unfortunately, TFA ends with an apparent cliffhanger. You could blame Abrams for this, or Johnson for feeling compelled to explore the particularities of how it's resolved. As a result of one or both writers' choices, there is no time skip at all between TFA and TLJ. An alternative would have been to have Luke accept Rey as a student in the interim, and perhaps Chewbacca returning to the Resistance/New Republic with his ship. That way, Chewbacca doesn't end up being a static character - a dehumanised taxi driver - just because he was with Rey at the end of TFA.

Some of the only films which I can think of as being similar in this way are the Lord of the Rings movies, which were adapted from books that the author wrote as one block and then split into three. Nowhere near that level of planning and coordination went into the ST.

 

Imho, the TLJ throne room fight doesn’t qualify as a duel because you don’t have two lightsaber-wielding opponents fighting each other. It’s more like when Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan fight droids or Luke fights Jabba’s goons. The Luke/Kylo showdown on Crait might be a duel, but Luke doesn’t really fight, he just uses illusions and taunting. So I’d argue that TLJ is the only main saga entry that doesn’t actually have a lightsaber duel at all. As with many other things it pretends to conform to the series’ expectations only to mischievously pull the rug out from under you. Whether you think it’s amusing is a matter of taste.

Sooooo epic. I remember in the Phantom Menace documentary there's a scene where Lucas and Williams are going over Duel the Fates and GL says something to the effect of, "You didn't know exactly where the story's going down the road, but this track will be perfect in Ep III". As soon as he heard it he could already envision how it would play into the "fall of the Jedi" story line.

For me, the most important elements of a good lightsaber duel are an intimate understanding of the emotions and motivations of the opponents, a firm grasp of their power/abilities, and excellent choreography/visual flair. In that sense I think Vader/Ahsoka is the best lightsaber duel of all time. Anakin/Obi-wan and Obi-wan/Qi-gon/Maul come close too, but there is just so much going on with Vader/Ahsoka, so many layers. But I love all lightsaber duels.