ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

If he was actually going for Jackie Chan-style, that`s ridiculous. Because despite often doing so in comedies, Jackie Chan IS a master martial artist. He is doing it all himself. You can`t replicate Jackie Chan with amateurs. That is so far above their paygrade, its not even funny.

Chirrut Imwe in Rogue One could be the exact staff-wielding badass he was because of Donnie Yen. If you had put a non-martial artist actor in the role you would have to do the tricks of the trade aka using more stuntmen and lots of cuts in editing. That does take away from an action scene because the less cuts you use and the more you can see the actual actor doing it, the more it enhances the portrayal of them as a badass. There is a reason why Tom Cruise in the Mission Impossible franchise or Keanu Reevs in both Matrix and John Wick make the action parts work.

Obviously, neither Adam Driver nor Daisy Ridley are at that level of skill. Which, you can`t blame them for but in that case use fight choreography that matches their skill level.

 

If the number of unexpected and unearned twists and turns is how one determines the quality of a film, TLJ gets an A plus. But that is one of it’s primary flaws, IMO, and it’s a big one. Things “don’t go the the way you think” but there’s scant justification for it. In Game of Thrones, for example, the unexpected events ultimately have clear, earned and logical story and character rationales. TLJ barely even bothers with that sort of thing. Why? I think because RJ doesn’t take the genre all that seriously. He sees it as pulpy fluff with a touch of philosophical depth. For some, including some serious and intelligent fans, that’s all Star Wars is and should be. And I do honestly respect that perspective. But for those of us who want more than that, it falls dangerously flat.

 

To me the SW as genre is a mixture of fairytale genre with swashbuckling fun under a Sci-Fi guise. However, that alone would be generic so to make it SW, you need a unique air of spirituality and heart to it.

Unexpected twists in and of themselves say nothing about the quality of the material. Flipping around some road movie/gangster drama/hostage drama into a crazy pulpy vampire slasher was an unexpected twist in From Dusk Till Dawn. And it worked very well. The two genres are not so far apart and the two halves of the movie are not so differently stylized that it doesn`t work. The protagonists also go on journey that remain consistent through both parts.

Doing twists just for the sake of twists would be to start a movie out as a medical drama, then swap it into Sci-Fi, then romantic comedy, then Western etc. Sure, it`s gonna be unpredictable but it won`t be cohesive or even remotely good.

I don`t accept the claim that if someone found TFA too much of a copy-cat, they can`t complain about TLJ. What? If someone burns my hand, I could still complain if someone else freezes it next. BOTH are unplesant sensations.

 

About the current state of SW:

 

Previous "twists" tended to make sense and didn't feel like they were thrown in their just for the sake of doing them. Even the most wonky one, the Leia is Luke's sister reveal, doesn't feel like it's there just to be "shocking," but more as a way for Lucas to wrap the OT up quicker.

THAT'S the distinction with TLJ, it does twists simply for the sake of doing them. It's obsessed with it's own perceived cleverness basically.

 

I just never got that vibe. The one twist that I guess I wasn't a fan of was Rose saving Finn at the last minute and giving whatever that speech was supposed to be.

 

There's so many. Finn's injury from TFA being used for dumb comedy and then forgotten about, Luke tossing the saber over his shoulder and then stomping off in ways that Rian clearly intended to be funny, Snoke's death, Holdo being "right" but not really, DJ betraying them, Kylo flip-flopping motivations, etc.

They're either not funny, poorly-executed and make no sense in-context, or are trying WAY too hard to be "deep."

 

So i normally do not criticize the sequels but i will point out one thing that is a pretty glaring mistake. Some of you may know this and some not but in the throne room scene when rey is battling the praetorian that is duel wielding daggers they lock up briefly where rey drops her lightsaber to kill him with a reverse grip. If you look at the free hand the dagger he had a moment before is gone. Digitally removed would be my guess after the fight coreographer pointed out he could just stab her in the back. This is a weird thing for me but does not ruin the movie though. So don’t say i never gave you guys anything or said this movie was perfect!

 

Rey Skywalker/Solo was predictable because for conventional storytelling reasons, it was the best way to go. It’s “predictable” in the same way Spider Man being Peter Parker in a Spider Man movie is predictable. That doesn’t mean they can’t defy the convention obviously. Into the Spider-Verse is my favorite Spider-Man movie. But if you’re going to go that unpredictable route, you’ve gotta make it worth it. Why is this new/unconnected character the protagonist? How is it her story?

Spider-verse succeeds on that front, with Miles as the clear cut protagonist and star of the show, while Parker is an able mentor-figure that’s a little rough around the edges (like Luke should have been).

TLJ is a miserable failure on the question, treating its “protagonist” like a prop. Rey Random serves no purpose to the story besides reducing Rey in importance to the story. Yeah I’m subverted though, so congrats on that I guess. If the goal is being unpredictable for the sake of it, LF achieved that.

 

I agree with this video 100%. Succint analysis and proof our current "media" and click bait empires are on payola.

That's it? Free your mind and the rest will follow.....

The female protagonist of the ST was sacrificed on the alter of some misguided attempt democratize the force, with platitudes and talking points from new media who had not paid real attention to the saga or where not old enough to experience the OT in real time. Social media induced political correctness that thinks age old mythology should be trashed. Let the old things die why don't ya! The irony is she leaves TLJ less of a feminist icon than when she entered.

I hope some of these whipper snappers take the time to go see Mary Queen of Scotts this weekend. Geez.

 

The "democratizing The Force" thing annoys me to no end for one simple reason. THE FORCE WAS ALREADY DEMOCRATIC, IT'S NEVER NOT BEEN!!!! This franchise NEVER has said that you HAVE to be a Skywalker in order to use The Force, or be powerful. All it said is that the Skywalker family are unusually gifted in it in-general. And even then, Leia wasn't depicted as being uber-Force Powerful until, ironically, TLJ.

But as for "well anyone can do it," yeah that's why we had Obi Wan in the original movie, Yoda in ESB, Vader, Sheev, and then the PT/TCW had Mace Windu, Qui Gon, Dooku, everyone else on the Jedi Council, Ahsoka Tano, and like 9,999 other Jedi, more or less, NOT named "Skywalker." You also had Kanan and Ezra on Rebels, the latter of whom was presented as quite naturally gifted/powerful with The Force despite not being a Skywalker.

So they sacrificed Rey's character, and Luke's for that matter, to make a "point" that wasn't necessary because it had already been made crystal clear a long time ago.

 

If they really were telling a story of the democratization of the force, Rey wouldn’t have had her story be about playing therapist to Skywalkers. The only reason Rey gives a damn about their problems is because they’re Skywalkers and therefore the story needs her to. It’s so hilarious to me how after TFA people acted like if Rey was a Skywalker, she’d be defined by Luke, but somehow it’s better to have Rey’s character wrapped up in Skywalker men for absolutely no reason whatsoever personal to her. It’s totally more feminist for a girl to define herself through what strangers tell her her purpose is! Because that’s what we girls do after all. Seek out strangers to explain our lives to us. What cute stranger bad boy can I sacrifice my life for today? (Said nobody ever)

 

Also how is The Force "democratized" here? The only Force Users in the ST who AREN'T Skywalker's are Rey (who is the "special chosen one/space messiah), and Snoke (who's thrown away with little fanfare). No one else has The Force that we know of. Not Finn, not Poe, not Rose, not Hux, not Phasma, not Holdo, not nobody. And even then the ultimate uber Force Users are Kylo (a Skywalker/Solo), and Rey (Chosen One 2.0).

And Luke's other students, who COULD have maybe done more to sell this idea, are all disposed of OFFSCREEN and no one in-universe seems to really care because, it's all about Kylo.

And as for Rey Skywalker, or Rey Palpatine, or Rey Kenobi, or whatever, it would at least give SOME kind of halfway decent explanation for why she's so uber-powerful (since those characters are known to be so) since we barely get an explanation for it as it is, and its a lame one. And also Rey Skywalker would have instantly gave her a better connection to both Luke and Kylo, better explained this supposed "bond" that she has with the latter, given her more defined motivations for going to Kylo and/or getting involved in this fight, and even given a bit more depth to her dynamic with Han as well. Oh and also, it'd feel like an actual continuation of the "Skywalker Saga" since even KK has claimed that that's what the ST is.

How is this any more "democratic" with The Force than the OT was? Heck the PT was FAR more democratic with it than the ST is.

 

This is the biggest reason I actually feel like they didn't grasp or bother to pay attention to anything in the earlier films and just didn't give two *****.

 

I think people misunderstand what they meant by 'democraisation' of the Force. They aren't changing anything about the Force. They are responding to the fan theories that she must be related to someone.

 

If that’s what they’re doing, it’s even worse then. Storytelling isn’t about “responding to fan theories.”

 

Unless it's the photograph of RJ with the "Your Snoke theory sucks" card. He uses that in defense of leaving out anything about Snoke but wants to claim that fan theories are what caused him to make Rey Random? Can't have it both ways.

 

I can just picture how that conversation between Luke and Yoda would go:

Yoda: "Only strong in the Force, your family is."
Luke: "But Master Yoda that's not what you said before. You said that The Force was simply strong in my family, not that we're the only ones?"
Yoda: "Oh well, ignore that little detail you must. Ignored it themselves, these new creators have."
Luke: "Also what about you Master? You were the most powerful Jedi around for centuries yet you're not part of my family?"
Yoda: "Doesn't fit the new agenda, that little detail. To make this work, ignore it you must. Forget my supreme badassery, these new movies have. Poorly conceived mess, these scripts are."
Luke: "Yeah, I mean they turned me into a whiny idiot who abandons his loved ones and runs off to pout and leaves them all to die for my mistake."
Yoda: "Exactly, now get the heck out of here am I. Only so much of this crap, can I take. Bored am I, to the space casino I will go."

 

No because the characters (specifically Kylo and Snoke) also look to much into Force 'royalty'. It's a rebuke to them as well.

 

I don’t think I’ve seen RJ claim that that is why he made her random. That would be RJ essentially owning being a troll lol.

RJ’s explanations are terrible though. He didn’t want to hand Rey purpose on a silver platter. He thought the hardest thing he could throw at her was being unimportant. Though that second one feels like him looking for an explanation because it makes no sense at all. TFA Rey couldn’t care less about being unimporant and even TLJ Rey was “woohooing” five minutes later.

No it’s not. The film tells us Rey exists because of Kylo. Her importance is wrapped up in him even though she’s not a Skywalker.

And for the record, storytelling shouldn’t be a rebuke of the fans at all. That shouldn’t factor in period.

 

He didn't hand her a purpose at all, that's the problem. The purpose that Rian went with, is basically the same one that JJ gave her in TFA. Only it was done far better there. Her character just went in a giant annoying circle in TLJ essentially.

Heck even something like her parents turning out to be FO officers, or evil Sith, or something would have been more interesting and given her more potential emotional turmoil than what we got.

Also when was it established that Snoke was into "Force Royalty." I don't recall that EVER being a thing with him, quite the reverse in fact. And even that being a thing with Kylo hasn't been properly established since they refuse to give us more of his backstory/motives for turning beyond Luke being a reckless imbecile once.

 

The fact that Rey was too reliant upon Kylo through the first half of the film, and that causes narrative issues, doesn't mean the intent wasn't to rebuke Kylo and Snokes obsession with established blood lines.

I don't know for sure that RJ intended it to be meta, but it works that way as well. They certainly aren't changing the Force, as has been claimed.