TV Discussion TCW - Harbinger of the "Great SW Fan Purge" ? [possible spoilers]

For me its simply her ability to write complex, emotional characters in a believable and I dare say, moving, manner. KT is a breath of freah air in the novel verse, despite her love of Mando's/Clones and her ambivalense toward the Jedi. She gets you right into the characters heads and makes you care about who they are, and what they want.

 

Well, I have taken the time to read all seven pages of this thread, and its diversity is staggering. Many fans came to Star Wars for different reasons. Each individual tends to gravitate to his or her own favorite films. Each has his/her own justifications for sticking with SW.

I've been a fan since the beginning, but perceptually I haven't been that active here since Sith. That's because I guess, for me, Star Wars is filmed entertainment. (Animation technically isn't filmed, but i'm sure you get what i'm saying.) It's not just for the distinctive visual storytelling style, but as much the sound as well. Lightsabers, Twin Ion Engines, R2-D2, Darth Vader's breathing... Ben Burtt's resume still reads like a list of the top ten sound effects in movie history. And obviously John Williams has almost single-handedly kept Romantic-style classical music alive into the 21st century. In 2005 i had to resolve myself to never experiencing this level of cinematic entertainment again in my lifetime.

As such, TCW is having a much greater impact on me than virtually any previous EU media, much of which i've ignored. I'm almost prepared to say that this is how Star Wars was meant to be. Free of the physical constraints of live action or the perceived need for serious dramatic overtones, content to revel in its own fun, pulpy style. In looking at the changes to the original movies and the way the newer ones were constructed, i've already become quite accustomed to looking at an animated Star Wars. The primary difference in the look of Clone Wars from the films is the lack of live action human characters. It'll be interesting to see how future generations of fans view it, as they're likely to get their first SW exposure via this show.

I really admire that Lucas has hung in there with his creation, despite the constant attacks of former fans. He's turning it carefully over to the next generation, not selling it out as some have suggested. He's been able to employ a plethora of talented artists to work on something I'd bet every single one of them loves.

There's a vocal element of the fandom that clings to the first two or three films. Heck, i know a very talented artist who even rejects Empire... because of Yoda. To each their own, but i feel no need to qualify what i choose to respond to in my entertainment, nor attack the choices of others.

I have encountered a lot of indifference to TCW on the part of more casual fans, which brought me back to TF.N after quite an absence. I reckon i'll be around to discuss the particulars of the show as long as it runs, which looks to be quite a while!

 

^ ^ ^ That's really interesting and ties in with something that I brought up on another board recently.

I think it's right when you say that more recent entries in the SW saga are more what SW was meant to be, it's creator's vision, than the OT was.

I've come to the conclusion that many of the things which I love about the OT were actually as they were because of physical and technological constraints and that had he been able, GL would've made the OT more like the PT.

I don't have a problem with that. I like the PT plenty, but the OT will always be my favourite for many reasons, some objective and others less so.

I think that many of those old time fans who believe that GL has lost his may need to consider the possibility that he's actually only recently found it. We may not all like the way he found, but it's where he's always wanted to be with SW.

 

I posted earlier on the subject of ANH-ESB.
Regarding the "vocal element":
These two films were a different animal than what George really wanted.
These two films wee designed to be more adult themed that kids can also enjoy.
That was due to collaborative efforts and advice of other film-makers (some unwanted).
George's Star Wars is more kid themed that adults can also enjoy.
Two totally different viewpoints. Also why the majority of changes made in the SE were to these two films.
I stated this earlier, but perhaps not so concisely.
So yes, George has stuck to his guns and not sold out regarding his films.

Personally, I understand each approach and now enjoy both viewpoints.
Agreed, it did take me awhile to let go and unlearn what I had learned to come to this state of balance.
As stated, CW has brought me back (to fan boards as well) and redeemed me. After all is said and done, I find I'm more in agreement with George's viewpoint than I ever thought I would be. Imagine my surprise.

I suspect that after CW begins the planned television run, more and more fans will eventually find this same balance.

Edited for formatting errors.

 

Actually that's something people hate about her - probably the same people who nitpicked until their logic was bleeding about the number of clones the Republic had. I thought it was perfectly logical. Officially, the Republic had 3 million clone troopers in active service. "Officially."

But that's one of the reasons that I and some others like her. I mean, I'm a cold-hearted, dark-sided **** myself, but even I felt something in my eye when the order came down everywhere. Here were all these Jedi I'd grown up with, read the comics and such, and it was just POW! one right after another. And you knew it was going happen, but you just weren't prepared for the way it happened all at once. Ki-Adi-Mundi - he was cool, he looked like a coneheaded wizard, and he was a favorite character of mine from the Republic series. Aayla - what can I say, she was hot, she was blue, and she was in almost every comic with Quin in it. Plo Koon, Stass Allie - more of the same. By the time Vader went after the younglings, that scene didn't shock me as much as watching the Jedi buy the farm - sure, they were children and all, but the Jedi were mostly characters I'd been familiar with since TPM. But if some woman in the audience there got up and started cheering, I could see myself cracking a smile and thinking "wow." Though I could also see other moviegoers glaring at her, apalled or wondering what her problem was.

Plus it's good to have an author who gives the clones/stormies their well-deserved representation.

 

I remember being really sad for Yoda most of all when the Jedi got wiped out. But it did anger me later thinking of Yoda's words from earlier in the Movie.

"Miss them do not, mourn them do not."

I think its lines like that that have pushed KT in the direction she's gone. I myself was thinking "Can you really stick to yours guns, Yoda? Do you really not miss and mourn them, these proud warriors which grew up as your children, looking up to you?"

I personally put Yoda's words off, like he was talking without thinking My feelings were that Yoda just lost his whole family, of course he's sad, of course he'll miss them. I'll feel sad for him, even if his words are extremely cold

But I do think thats some of what KT picked up on. That indifference about life and death. I think even Yoda has re-assessed his feelings by the time of Empire.

 

I think one of GL's overall points regarding the Jedi is that they need to reassess their point of view on the sanctity of life. However, ESB Yoda was still pretty much the same animal. He encouraged Luke to sacrifice Han & Leia to honor what they fought for. Luke essentially represents that new POV.

 

I'm not sure I'd call what has been goin on a SW fan purge. But I do recall after Episode 1 thinking that for me, at least, Jar Jar was some sort of wake up call. And a slow process it was, for me, but how it worked is me sorta sneering when I see Jar Jar, but in the distance hearing some kid saying how they really love Jar Jar. These movies are for youngsters and those with bits of youth at heart and thats what I was waking up to. To think Jar Jar is out of place in Star Wars, is to think people lining up for a month <<do you remember those times people???>> to see a movie has never happened in real life. It goes hand in hand almost. Lining up was done for fun! And when you get a bit older, sometimes you cant believe what you used to do for fun. But it never takes away from the fact that it was fun. Jar Jar is for fun. A bit clumbsy, but still fun.

But, too, times are changing. This year, for example, I saw The Dark Knight twice. I've mentioned this to some people at work, and they sound so shocked I've seen it that many times. To me, even, seeing it twice seems to be a big deal nowadays. But, to a select few, I'll go on to say how I saw Episode 3 12 times in theater. Episode 2 11 times. Episode 1 13 times.

With times changing, I'd expect Star Wars to change, while holding some key things the same. But this, always with the hope to entertain the kids first. I'm 37 now. And though I really enjoyed the prequals and also TCW mostly, it's the kids who come first. Always.

But you know, re-reading this, to those who have moved on or feel like Star Wars has changed too much or whatever, I'd say to go pick up one of those awesome new lightsabers that make all the sounds and stuff. Take a swing.


Isurus

 

Isurus I couldn't agree more. I used to get made fun of by my younger brother because I would make outlandish statements about movies or Star Wars(not outlandish to me but to others) I would say stuff like for the recent Transformers movie I have one certain criteria and that being I have to hear Prime say Roll out otherwise it just isn't right. I would make statements about Star Wars like it has to do this, this and this otherwise I won't be happy. He would laugh at me and call me crazy and until recently I never saw his point. Now after CW and some of the things I have read on this board I was like wow do I really sound like that. Yeah I would call myself crazy too. These movies and books and everything is created to foremost have fun and secondly to open your eyes to wonderous possibilites and I can't believe that I let such things as criteria stop me from enjoying Star Wars to the fullest, just don't tell my brother he was right.

 

Maybe thats my problem , I'm so pro Star Wars because I've got so many of those cool lightsabers The Force FX sabers rock!

 

I doubt that's the case. It's certainly not for me. I'm 33. I always have three books I'm reading, have read or preparing to read at any given time and I'm a pro writer who's attempting to break out of the short story market and into selling novels. My issues with the EU-or at least the novels-are that they are thematically out of sync with the Star Wars movies and they've become more about military warfare and alien cultures than they are fairy tales or space opera. The works of Bryan Daly, Kevin J. Anderson, Aaron Allston and James Luceno are to me the best of the novels because they're pure sci-fi cheese. The novels of Zahn and several of the other writers come off as pretentious and stilted as if the authors were too embarrassed to write a fun little adventure and so tried to make Star Wars their own thing rather than working with what GL gave them. Most of them obviously felt they were above writing write opera so they didn't. Thusly most of them failed to write something that was undeniably and authentically Star Wars.

 

I think I can agree with most of this.
Daley's Solo trilogy was just fun to read. Foster's Splinter, same.
Anderson's style I have not cared for in Star Wars or his other works; Dune especially so.
Allston was heavily involved in the RPG scene (D&D quite a bit) so he most likely understands the fun factor inherent.
Zahn was actually the beginning of the end for me in Star Wars lit; Anderson finished it off.

How the novels are presented currently I can grasp from the discussions. Pass.
If there is a purge as the thread implies, I will be curious as to who survives.
I might even take up SW lit if it becomes fun again.

 

Dreamer didn't you and I talk about this before? Books I mean. I guess the age thing got away from me when I was kicking the idea around I did not mean to say that older people don't read when clearly they do. I'm 34 and I read constantly. I think the younger generation really doesn't care to and I hope that they grow out of it. In my Literature and Film class this week of the 12 students besides me in the class, ten of them complained about having to read the legend of sleepy hollow before the next class which would be in two weeks. A short story and they are complaining wait till the have to tackle fellowship of the ring. I think the older reader comment was more in line with the fact that there are alot of fans who don't accept any EU in any form and I think that is why I included them in my musings.

So as far as your review of the books I guess I never looked at them from that stand point. With the first Zahn ones it was boom they are still the Rebellion it is still war time. Come to think of it other then the Young Jedi books I can't think of when there wasn't a large scale global conflict. I think i lost track of that because with the X-wing series I loved the groups and how they interacted. I could read about Wes Janson giving Wedge a hardtime and I could really see it. With the New Jedi Order books there was less but still we had intricate character studies, the loss of Chewie, Han's break down, Leia helping refuges. By the time we get to Legends as much as I like the three authors i was getting mad that it was let's turn Jacen into the next Vader when a much cooler version would of been how do we make him a sith Lord but the total opposite of his grandfather. I think you do make some interesting points though

 

Meh, Jar Jar was obnoxious, but he is like an old pal now. I LOVE all 6 Star Wars films, always have and always will. And I LOVED the Clone Wars Movie. One of my friends suggested I have low expectations; another simply called me a gullible moron. But ya know what, I love the films because I love SW Universe and when GL puts something out in that Universe it just rocks for me. I have likely read about 9/10's of the entire EU for the same reason (although they disappoint at times). But the films never let me down - including the cartoons. I do know what to expect, but that doesn't change anything because to me I can get totally lost in the universe while watching when George has a hand in it, he totally created SW for people like me. I can't get enough. I'll be watching any fan purge from afar, never understanding it and likely never really trying. I'm older too, but it is like I am a kid again when I watch these films/shows.

 

Very interesting, and good points.

 

"Also why the majority of changes made in the SE were to these two films."

Great points all around, but I disagree here. There were very few changes made to ESB. ROTJ had a lot more, if I recall correctly. ESB had, what...the wampa monster and an extended Cloud City intro? That's really about it. Jedi had the musical number, the new Sarlaac monster, and a completely different ending.

 

That is true.
Changes in ROTJ were done to make them more kid friendly.
S'all good.

Personally I've come to like Jedi Rocks and the deflating of Boba Fett the uber-man.

 

I was born in the 60's but I love the Clone Wars. I think folks need to lighten up about it, the more varied the stuff they can learn to enjoy - the better their life will be.

 

Im 20 so I guess I'm in between generations. As a little kid I watched OT religiously. And I caught the Special Editions when they were released in theaters. And when I first saw PM I thought it was great, and was a bit perplexed it was getting knocked. At AOTC, a little bit older, I could see some concerns. The Anakin/Padme romance scenes were really painful. ROTS was a godsend to me, was the best of the prequels, and I loved the darker tones.

I also dig the new Legacy comics series, which also has a darker tone; drug use, violence, sex, (it's offscene but its painfully obvius), cursing (in in-universe lingo cursing anyways).

I hope the new live-action tv series will be in this vein.

All that said, I still like the kiddier stuff. I don't take it too seriously. What other movie franchise has spawned such a huge and thriving fan culture? While Lucas may be losing some of the original fans who saw Star Wars premiere in 1977, I think they've doubled that fan-base in the last 10 years.

 

I think I might be kinda-sorta a first generation fan, as I was a baby when ESB came out in theaters and about three when ROTJ came out. I don't know exactly when I first saw Star Wars, maybe it might have been shortly after ROTJ came out.

But anyway, I loved this new Clone Wars movie. I did get a bit uneasy at the near-campy elements of Ziro the Hutt, and the bit of hokeyness of seeing Jabba getting a tad sappy when his son/daughter/larva? was returned to him. But I enjoyed it nontheless.

I don't think there will be too much of a fan 'purge' as much as a fan 'falling away.' A purge seems to imply a violant action against something, whereas a 'falling away' involves some fans becoming disinterested and leaving to go to other interests.

I am one of those people who see the movies and anything else Star Wars that George is involved in as almost the end all of Star Wars. I am not really into the EU very much, so Anakin having a Padawan does not contradict any of the movies or the little of what I know of the EU. She most likely dies as seeing Anakin never mentions her again in the movies, (he failed, she died, it is too personally painful to bring up and it explains why he goes overboard to prevent death) and so on.

 

Good to see others like me who like the real world situations in Legacy. Cade is the #1 Junkie Jedi

 

I consider myself to be a "selective" Star Wars fan. I have loved the original trilogy my entire life, and I was one of the few people who didn't complain against Jar Jar's antics in Episode 1 when it came out-- however, I was also at the age where I couldn't make a joke that didn't involve a fart reference, and as I grew older I began to despise him.

That kind of sums up how I feel about the prequels-- when I was a teenager and saw Episodes 1 and 2, I was much less critical of them, but as I matured and my taste in films became more refined, their flaws became more and more glaring to me. Episode 3, I think, is the one film in the Prequel Trilogy that is truly on par with the original films, although even it has it's share of problems.

What I think is interesting about the prequels, is that they spawned the concept of "proactive fanboyism." People like the Phantom Editor and MagnoliaFan were not content to just sit back and embrace disappointment, and actually took matters into their own hands by making re-cut versions of the films. If you've done any research on Star Wars fan edits, you'll likely realize that there are far fewer edits of Episode III than there are of 1 & 2, and I believe it's because Lucas started listening to his critics.

Unfortunately, the good will Lucas seemed to re-gain with fans through Revenge of the Sith seems to be getting depleted from Clone Wars. A great many fans are outright rejecting it, and I myself have no desire at all to see it. It's not just a matter of distaste for the fact that it's kiddy, but the fact that it appears to be very poorly made.

I am a life long fan of animation, and I absolutely detest what I've seen of Clone Wars' animation. I think that Lucasfilm LTD was biting off more than they could chew when they decided to go with CG instead of hand drawn animation. There is a reason why 99% of TV cartoons use 2D animation: 3D animation is expensive, and if you go cheap then it looks like crap. The animation is the kind of crummy made-in-China crap that you expect to see in a cheap commercial, or in a Full Sail graduate's portfolio (well OK, maybe it's not that bad). It does not match the quality of Genndy Tartakovsky's cartoons by a long shot, and it's because Tartakovsky's cartoons did not try to work beyond their means. The characters in the new Clone Wars look like Thunderbirds puppets with real human eyes, and move like escapees from the Pirates of the Caribbean ride.

Clone Wars, to me, represents everything negative I've come to associate with Star Wars in the last 9 years. It's overtly commercial, over saturated with new technology that doesn't do what the creator wants it to, and blatantly geared towards children with no regard to older fans (or kids with good taste) at all. Kids do not like Star Wars because it has cutesy aliens, fart jokes, and slapstick humor. They like Star Wars because it has Jedi, robots, aliens, spaceships, laser pistols, Stormtroopers, and all that awesome stuff. There is no need to lure children in with kiddy crap when they already have more than enough reasons to watch it. Heck, Revenge of the Sith was on the border of R-rated in a lot of ways, was not even remotely kid friendly, and yet kids still went to watch it. "Kiddifying" Star Wars is ultimately pointless, because Kids were obsessed with Star Wars long before Lucas started pandering towards them.

 

So then without even seeing it you are rejecting it based on what a few low res videos that you saw online or maybe some celluloid in a theater. You are making bold statements about refining your movie tastes and then you say Tastakovsky's work was of higher quality, apples and oranges if you ask me. I am sorry but seeing Grievous spider crawl up a few pillars and out race a gunships laser cannons was to unbelievable even for me and I suspend disbelief alot for Star Wars. The Mace Windu superhero Jedi episode was tacky at best. Then of course the ithorian vocal cords bit was a stretch as well, but I watched it because it was star wars. I am under no ill

 

The reason I say that the 2D clone wars cartoons were higher quality is because Genndy Tartakovsky knew better than to try and work beyond his means. 2D animation, even when it's TV budget typically allows animators a lot more freedom, which in turns enables much more fluid and natural movement. Computer animation is more closely related to puppetry than traditional animation, and if the "pupeteers" are either too hard pressed for time or simply lack skill, you end up with stiff, robotic movement like in the Clone Wars movie.

Good animation is more about creating convincing movement than it is about drawing lots of pretty pictures, and form all the footage I've seen be it in a theater, on TV, or the internet, The Clone Wars completely failed at making characters who move convincingly. In Tartakovsky's cartoons, on the other hand, the characters moved through action scenes like a piece of butter in a hot frying pan (and I mean that in the best way possible). The reason why for so many years Disney was far more successful than their competitors was because Disney animated their characters move in a way that convinced people that they were alive, and that is why poorly done CG animation has become such a plague to the industry as of late. It is not enough to simply draw the characters well, and good animators understand this. Audiences do not buy into the idea of stiff, robotic movement, and that is part of why Clone Wars got such scathing reviews from critics.

Furthermore, seeing the trailer for Clone Wars in a movie theater was more than enough to tell me that the quality of animation was amateur at best. If that's the best they could come up with for their showcase to convince me to watch the movie, then I don't expect that they'll do much better on a weekly basis.

 

Again that is not a proper viewing so you can't say that it wasn't professional. I thought the animation was fluid and life like. I think you are being heavily influenced by outside opinions hence the "Thunderbirds reference. They made some stylistic choices and in that I think they went for what they felt was good, not by 2D standards but by thier own. I not sure what Disney animated films you are refering to but I have never watch a Disney movie and though to myself those sure seem like real characters. Again you are judging the whole series by a small sampling in which you are already jaded