ST That's Not How The Force Works... (or is it?)

Agreed. I think the key is that they were deemed advanced by SW fans. There really is never any indication in the movies that the Jedi mind trick is an advanced move; I always perceived it as a superficial mind trick that novice Jedi's can do which only works on the weak minded. As far as defeating Kylo, Kylo was (1) exhausted and injured, (2) far from an experienced force user, just one with a decent amount of training; Rey was an expert weapon user, which Luke wasn't in ANH.

 

No, it would be more consistent. Luke is the only one that sees the Jedi spirits. It is not like an Obi Wan ghost is walking around Ewok Village, shaking hands.

 

Yup. I would also add that it seems Kylo was actually not trying to kill Rey, which many of the Mary Suers like to ignore.

 

No you are wrong, I could see all 3 Jedi spirits in ROTJ, not just Luke. It wouldn't make any sense if I couldn't see them in Force Awakens because I could see them all in Jedi.

 

I hope not. We have many characters nowandays to have this.

I would like to see actual training like Luke did.

 

We will. It'll be a combination of her current abilities & Luke's training in VIII. Just like with Yoda & Luke.

 

Dp

 

For me, it's not that it can't be explained, but that she can't fully explain it.

Yeah, both Jabba and Watto are pretty dismissive of mind tricks. I don't see that's there's anything that much more impressive than Luke blocking laser blasts while blind, but I can see how the lesson with Ben - however brief and non technical - makes a difference for some.

Personally, I think it's clear Rey has heard all about the Jedi and after her exposure to the Force calling to her through the lightsaber (which is a far more raw and powerful exposure than Luke ever had, and the mind probe - again - far more powerful and raw than anything Luke encountered at this stage - which she rebels ON INSTINCT) I think she has little reason not to believe the the things she tries might work. As we know belief and instinct are key.

The basic abilities are something she already has (and no, she doesn't fly the Falcon better than Solo, she knows it as well as him because he everyday is spent learning about the insides of every ship she finds and she specifically knows what mods Unkar Plutt made, which Han has had no time to work out yet, and has for being a sniper? Other than Stormtroopers and JarJar, when has there been a bad shot in SW? It's Cowboys vs Indians).

And we also know a Jedi's strength flows from the Force, it will guide her (let's not forget that Maz is amazed the Force / Skywalker she is calling to her) and that it can partially control your actions and obey your commands.

I think what TFA does (whilst admitting that she advances quicker than Luke - though their backgrounds and journeys are also different) is assume that most of us are aware of these previous teachings about the Force.

I can understand why that is an issue for some, but as mapped out in TFA, given what we already know about the Force, I don't have a big issue with any of it.

I also agree that we may understand it even further when we see 8 and 9 and get a clearer picture of her backstory, but even without that I'm not sure it's an issue. She's clearly strong with the Force and the Force is calling on her for big things. That's enough of a starting point for me.

 

I'm not on board with all the "we need to see Rey being trained" - seeing training is up there with the retelling of Spider-Man's origins as things I don't need to see in depth again.
If Rey's training is dealt with as economically as, say, the way All Star Superman tells Superman's origins, that'd be fine with me.

 

I'm happy with more training if it gives us a little more insight and is used to develop the characters of Rey and Luke and their relationship. What I'm also hoping we'll see is Rey's training (which could of course take place on the job so to speak) running parallel to Kylo's.

This is the first time we've seen two (relative) equals/ rivals on a similar path - and I think they've deliberately been set up as yin and yang - the image of the two circling, locked in their duel with the sabers at opposite angles is a great nod to that - and seeing how they progress along their paths and the differences in their philosophies (and the philosophies of their teachers) could be fascinating and hugely compelling.

 

Wonder if she'll run around with Luke on her back?

 

Yeah, I would agree with those options. I think that we're looking at a combo of options 2 & 3. I think 1 is unlikely (though there is probably a bit of wanting to make the lead cool). Of course, It's totally possible that these elements from TFA are never satisfyingly explored in the same way the "other" was a bit of a cute wrap up or the prophecy is only ever vaguely dealt with.

 

It was a means to communicate that with the audience. The other characters there could not see them.

 

omfg.

 

I think a better statement might be "That's not how film works".

I don't think Lucas pulled the way Luke develops his force abilities(and indeed his abilities in general) out of thin air for the OT, rather he set Luke's development to suit the needs of his story. In ANH for example Luke starts off as a fairly naive young hero, a good pilot but needing the help of other more experienced characters and repeatedly in danger, By the climax of the film he develops just enough force ability to make a difference to his existing skills and give us a hint at his future direction but not so much that he doesn't still have a lot of room to grow.

The problem with Rey for me is that there seems like a mismatch between her story and her abilities. We get hints that her background does differ from Luke's but her story ends up being too similar to his IMHO. Not that she carries out identical tasks to Luke but in the sense that its a heroes journey based on ability, first we see her make the decision to "do the right thing" with BB-8 and then we see her overcome a series of physical challenges, beating up the thugs, escaping in the falcon, rescuing Finn on the freighter, escaping imprisonment on SKB and then defeating Kylo in the films climax.

The Rey we got in TFA was for me overpowered when it came to telling this story, she showed too much competence early in the story to have much room to develop or have much drama around her. I think the film does hint at the kind of story this Rey COULD potentially have been used for more effectively with the idea of her challenge not being a physical one as Lukes is in ANH but rather one of character more akin to ROTJ.

I think the film does have some elements of what could have been a much stronger story for the powerful Rey we see. The ideas of her choosing to give up her wait on Jakku, of accepting the force and of confronting Kylo are there but really I don't think are focused on nearly enough in favour of trying to rerun a character story similar to Luke. I think the film would have been better off having Rey make a clear decision to leave Jakku for the greater good giving up her wait rather than being forced off of it by the FO. It would also have been better off if her force abilities and vision of Kylo's rebellion had been introduced much earlier allowing her rejection of them and fear of him to be given a lot more dramatic weight, especially if Han had been turned into more of a mentor figure akin to Obi Wan rather than drafting in Maz.

Whats more I think if you go that route you remove a lot of the need for Rey to beat Kylo at the end. I think the reason Abrams goes this route is because he's committed to Rey's story being one of heroic physical achievement similar to Luke's so it needs a big climate. If Rey doesn't defeat Kylo then really what other climax could there be that's as satisfying? if on the other hand Rey has a stronger dramatic link to Kylo as above then I don't think defeating him becomes as import, simply comforting him is climax enough and the duel could end in a more inconclusive fashion whilst still being cathartic to the audience.

 

I'm going to politely disagree with your notion that that's not how film works.

 

A film "works" as long as it connects with audiences. It's as simple as that.

 

No **** the other characters couldn't see them. I said me and Luke. Herp Derp.

 

Wow

 

Exactly. Now for every individual that connection is either there or not, and of course there may be technical reasons as well as more intangible reasons. But clearly the film in this instance, while not working for everyone, works for a great many people (ETA - obviously if the film doesn't work for someone, it doesn't work, and likewise any given aspect. That's not my point - which is really, who gets to define whether the something does or doesn't work?).

 

Hence starting the post with "I think" implying it to be my opinion although of course the statement itself is a simplistic play on the original quote and the argument below describes my view much more accurately. You can disagree with it of course but merely stating that you do backed up with no counter argument doesn't for me carry a great deal of weight.

Really the point I'm making is that I think Rey's character is not just an issue in terms of the SW universes internal logic but dramatically as well with the latter still being an issue for me even if an explanation is offered in future films.

 

This goes straight to my point about some fans looking at Rey through the lens of "physical skill development," and others through the lens of character development. You're right that the development of Rey's "physical skills" is not a part of her narrative. But that's because the focus is elsewhere - on character flaws. She begins the film as someone who arrogantly and pridefully refuses help from others, and as someone who is stuck in the past. As the film progresses, she learns to work well with others, and she breaks free of her past, and embraces a forward-looking destiny.

So yes, she develops as a character. It's just that the development of her physical skills is not part of that development.

 

You can also add to this the name given to the power "Jedi Mind Trick" - it's a trick. The word trick does not connote something exceptionally advanced. If it was called the "Jedi Will Domination" or the "Jedi Mind Enslavement" it might be easier to assume it is something difficult, but the name trick suggests it's much simpler.