Lit The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Dark Empire!

When did this happen?

 

Your point about the Empire and Luke and Co is valid. With many EU books it was like watching Walker Texas Ranger in Space. One of the (many) reasons I despised Stackpoles Rouge Squadron books, Watching Chuck Corran and co waste Imperials by the thousand was ridiclous, and why despite all the things wrong with it and his writing, KJA's books had actual potential there with developing Luke and him rebuilding the Jedi etc. Rather than have them just in stasis character wise, ie Lando back being the con-man gambler ....

You maybe right about Fett but if he was not popular do you think Lucas would still have inserted him into the PT ?

Like you I do not need the Internet or anyone else for that matter telling me what to like or dislike. RTJ was not terrible. The Luke/Vader/Emperor were/are pure gold. While the space battle and speeder bike chase scenes were fun, and Jabba was a great creation. That said having Teddybears take out the Legion of the Emperors best troops was a bit poor. While Han Solo should not have been unfrozen, and Luke and Leia becoming brother and sister was a bad idea period.

Forgetting the whitewash aspec for a second, since Veitch does not whitewash the Emperor , since it's impossible to whitewash the Emperor. Maybe a better comparison would be Vader. Should Anakin be allowed to enter Jedi Heaven after all the people he has killed ?

Finaly Let me ask you though, do you think it was acceptable for Zahn or any other author to bash DE or other EU works within there books ?

 

There is no such thing as Jedi heaven.

 

Without getting to off track:

You've reviewed the Star Wars Gamer, what do you think about the "Many Hands of Palpatine" article?
TZ I actually haven't read the article yet, but it is my opinion he had only one Hand, and anybody that says otherwise is lying, or conniving.

And why is that?

TZ She had a unique relationship with Palpatine. She was able to hear his voice anywhere in the Empire. When I did the story "Sleight of Hand," because Lucasfilm gawked at that communication, we had to establish that was absolutely unique. It was Mara and the Emperor who had that telepathic communication. He didn't have it with anybody else, and she didn't have it with anybody else. That is a unique position, and Palpatine obviously had other agents, but he only had one Hand.


If there is no Jedi Heaven how come they can all appear as Force Ghosts and no one else can then as it seems a bit unfair. Besides if Darth Vader is meant to be Space Jesus, it stands to reason he would die and go to heaven

 

Absolutely not, since the idea is to build a universe from all the stuff that gets thrown into the mix. Ignoring stuff that doesn't affect your niche and your view on the universe is okay, but I've got huge problems with books being "rewritten" by snarky character comments (I, Jedi, HOT obviously) or by source books. This thing is about a fictional universe first and about author's preferences, well, not even second. Say what you want about TCW and Lucas' violation of EU canon, at least it doesn't go out of its way to say "duh how dumb would it have been to have Anakin remain a padawan for almost three years" or "duh that Grievous backstory was totally dumb how could anyone think it would happen that way". There's less disrespect in simply overwriting these stories than in saying "no, it wasn't really the Emperor, but you, Luke, were truly written badly in all these books".

 

I think if you do that then you're projecting a Judeo-Christian worldview on Star Wars, but if you really think that appearing as a ghost equates to going to heaven, then taking that to its logical conclusion, only three people ever go to heaven that we know about and every other character in the films that dies does not.

Given the Buddhist influence, Lucas' statements, and direct dialogue from the film, "The act of living generates a force field, an energy. That energy surrounds us; when we die, that energy joins with all the other energy. There is a giant mass of energy in the universe that has a good side and a bad side. We are part of the Force because we generate the power that makes the Force live. When we die, we become part of that Force, so we never really die; we continue as part of the Force," and "Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force," at death you join with the "giant mass of energy in the universe" which is essentially like Nirvana.

There's no deity to levy judgement on an individual at death so everyone goes to the same place. The distinction is in the perception of it: a Sith Lord that thinks inward, only about himself is going to dislike the concept of losing his identity and becoming one with the Force, while a selfless Jedi will not.

 

He would return to his maker, and yeah, he does that. Is being a Force Ghost really something good for him, though? I think an interesting facet of these spirit apparitions that I've never seen before is that they are not your reward for living a compassionate life and you get to enjoy shiny blue nothingness existence. They are an extension of being compassionate. Force Ghosts reappear in order to help others - Anakin reappears to show Luke that he did right, and to Leia to help her get over her family history. He doesn't reappear to enjoy their forgiveness and have drinks with Ben. Jedi Heaven, then, is to disappear back into the Force, to give back to the universe's life energy what it gave to make your existence possible.

Therefore I'd be glad if someone said it wasn't a technique you actively learn, but rather a way to tune yourself into the universe so you can leave ripples of your mind behind to finish what you started - which would explain why Anakin and someone like Daeshara'cor can do this without taking classes on the matter.

 

Maybe not, but since his original concept already tied into the clone warrior idea, I think chances are pretty good Lucas would have explored that motif anyway.

And even if not, including fan favourites still goes both ways - the creator can cash in with the fans, but the fans get to have something they want. How would the fans get what they want without giving cash to the creator? Would fans prefer if the creators brought back least favourite characters like, say, Daala so they can pay for something they don't like?

I loved seeing Jango Fett on screen, silly name and all, and little Boba was kinda cute. I must admit, though, that I can't think of any OT character that I loathe and that I would have hated to reappear in some form in the prequels.

 

This bugs me a great deal, as Thrawn himself states, or at least implies, in Dark Force Rising that were multiple Hands.

 

Presumably that's where the idea of more than one came from.

I think Zahn is probably venting about Lucasfilm -- he probably intended there to be more than one hand, and Lucasfilm told him no it had to be a unique thing, so he made it that, then Lucasfilm changed its mind. Maybe he thinks the other writers are disobeying Lucasfilm.

 

Incidentally, I have no idea where this idea of Thrawn being half-human came from, as he's explicitly alien in the books.

 

because Lucasfilm gawked at that communication,

Doesn't sound like LF were that for it from what he is saying. More that he wanted Mara to have a special relationship with Palpatine that no one else had.

 

Considering it allows him to go from a burnt out shell, back to being Hayden Christianson I would say so.

I agree with you on the technique issue. I would also prefer it if the whole Midi-Chlorian thing got cut out since it seems to imply the force is basically microbes.

 

It was sort of cut out in Darth Plagueis. It's explained that midi-chlorians don't so much generate the Force as are attracted to it, a la magical plankton. They're a useful indicator of Force potential, but they're not actually part of the Force... otherwise, we'd all have Force powers via blood transfusions.

 

Not sure where the blood transfusion came from since midi-chlorians are cellular organelles and blood doesn't contain a whole lot of cells. Darth Plagueis didn't really say anything different than the films.

 

Everyone complains about the Hayden Force ghost, when the whole point of that is Anakin self-identifies as his 23 year old self, it isn't for the audience, much Vergere's statements being for Jacen not the audience.

 

No one complains that Luke's ghost looks pretty rejuvenated. People just dislike Hayden.

 

Midichlorians were a stupid and pointless idea but let's be fair, TPM itself said that all they are is an intermediary between the Force and living beings. The idea that midis create or are synonymous with the Force has no basis in the prequels.

 

True, but it was said in a way that didn't horrify generations of Star Wars fans.

 

Star Wars fans horrify themselves on a daily basis.

 

...I have no counterargument. Well played.

 

But the midichlorians create life and we could not exist without them, so they are more than just plankton

 

It's never said that midi-chlorians create life, just that we couldn't exist without them. And they're stand-ins for mitichondria, without which life in reality could not exist. Presumably they serve a similar biological role in the Star Wars galaxy, one that just happens to involve the Force, which is similarly something which binds all things together.

Lucas just wanted another symbiosis metaphor!

 

This is the Qui-gon exposition scene of the Midis
Besides doesn't the PT have it that Anakin was concieved by the midchlorians and Palpatine pretty much implies it was him that did it

 

Palpatine wasn't involved in Anakin's creation -- he admits to Lord Vader that they need to rediscover the secret together in the ultimate bait and switch troll job.