Full Series The Clone Wars - 5.16 - Lawless - discussion thread

Since when did the Jedi subscribe to the United Federation's Prime Directive?

 

How does a speeder bike make braking noises?

Also, dunno if anyone else drew comparisons, but Satine's death reminded me of this:


As for opening the door and seeing a random giant battle:
"How are these guys going to help us?"
"Oh, I don't know, I just always wanted to open a door to a room where they train people like in James Bond movies."
"Wicked!"

Plus, let's see how many film references we can cram into one episode.

Is Korkie dead? Please tell me he's dead. Also, if Satine is his aunt, would that make Bo-Katan his mom, or just another aunt?

As a counterpoint to the last episode, look at the difference in how the lightsaber fights are shot. THIS episode shows you how to do a good lightsaber fight. Sweeping shots and fluid motion to show the agility and grace of the movements, rather than insane editing to hide the fight scene behind chaotic imagery.

One thing I really liked was how subtly Savage reverted to his gaunt original form as the witch's magic faded from him.

That's the Witwer I know and despise! Screaming like a little girl and being totally unbelievable while doing it.

Also, when did TCW decide to stop giving a **** about hiding the fact that Palps is Sidious? I know in the film it is bleedingly obvious, but to their credit they leave the reveal until Anakin actually discovers the truth. While the audience knows who Sidious is, nobody in the film did. So finally saying it once a character had found out made sense.

Here? They just say "hey kids, Palpatine is Sidious, btw Spoilers"

 

I meant in ROTJ.

 

This isn't Lego-SW. Its not like he flies around with a bumper sticker that says: Future Emperor on board.

 

"My son is with them"
"Are you sure"
"I have felt him my master"
"strange that I have not"

 

Indeed. Maul first and foremost is a saber fighter, his mastery of the double-ended style shows this. He seeks to use his skill to defeat his enemies, we never for example see him shoot lightning whereas Tyranus & Sidious both can. Maul does not strike me as having particularly powerful Force ability so it makes sense he could be detected more easily.

 

Edit: According to Wrath of Maul, he was very strong in the force... as an infant.
He simply preferred to dominate with his weapon.
***

I fail to see the importance of sensing or not sensing Darth Sidious in TCW! In the movies it was clear that Jedi knew the Sith were running around in TPM but they never once pinpointed their location from afar. The closest we got was when Yoda called out Dooku in person and when Mace said that the dark side surrounded the Chancellor. Even when Sidious sensed that Vader was in danger, it was only a premonition... not a flashing beacon within the force saying "SITH ON MUSTAFAR!" Dark side or not, Jedi and Sith are free to move about the galaxy without having to 'conceal' themselves every step of the way. If sensing dark siders was really an issue, Lost Tribe of the Sith should never have been written...

 

I really don't get that argument, yeah he is a master with the sabre, due to Park in my opinion he looks the best duelist in the saga, but he uses the force more than most.
He throws that part of a droid or some thing to open the door and he force pushes Obi Wan into a pit.
How many other times have we seen force use in duels as part of their combat, not stop fighting and use the force? Vader in V, I think he continues dueling briefly while he tosses stuff, Dooku in III maybe when he chokes Obi Wan but Maul was in a sabre lock and force pushed Obi Wan, there's no reason to assume Maul isn't powerful in the force. Arguably that could also be because he's so good with a sabre he can use the force at the same time but either way I expect he either is or had the potential to rival any Jedi Master.

 

How many times has Maul grabbed and/or force choked Kenobi? Bo-Katan? Satine? Sugi? Heck, he moved a ship while on the run and limping... Maul is plenty strong in the force. What was stupid is that Savage never once went into tank mode against Sidious... strong enough to blow back Kenobi and Skywalker, or to choke n throw Ventress and Dooku... but not even a force push in his final hour? Lame.

 

Using Force Push at times does not make you big on Force powers as a Sith. Hurling stuff and shooting lightning or choking people etc is being big on Force powers in battle (like Dooku & Sidious). OK Maul chokes a bunch of people, but Vader did it from another room without moving a finger.

Vader being mainly a saber fighter is partly down to the OT not having the budget for crazy Force powers, his cyborg form limited his movement and so being outrageously powerful with the Force that would have been far more of an ally to him than his saber.

 

I fell out of the loop in this thread at about page 24 so forgive me if this has been mentioned - but did anyone else think several of the Mandalorian guards and soldiers sounded a lot like they were being voiced by Temuera Morrison?

It seems absurd that they would do this and not mention it, and IMDB doesn't mention it so I guess I was just imagining things, but it was striking how several of the lines sounded as if they were being spoken by Jango himself.

Though my visit to Morrison's IMDB page did offer one bit of a trivia - apparently he was best man at Jay Laga'aia's wedding. Jango Fett and Captain Typho, friends4lyf.

 

What about force choking and lifting someone in the middle of a duel? Is THAT Sithly enough? And yeah, the tech is mostly to blame.

 

I don't see Maul ranking anywhere near the other movie Sith in terms of Force ability. Tyranus & Sidious could both shoot lightning and fight Yoda on equal terms, and Vader was more powerful than pretty much everyone in the Jedi Order even when he was in suited form. I could totally buy into Vader going all Force Unleashed and just crushing people with starships he grabbed out of the sky, because he is that awesome.

This is why I was not keen on Sidious doing the whole spinning about and doing flips with lightsabers, he could just have pwned Savage & Maul with the Force and it would have been cooler IMO. Having him flying all over the place like Yoda really doesn't work for me. Sidious is about deception, he waits for you to let your guard down then bam! Dark Side power to the face.

 

He did pwn them at the beginning. When he pinned them against the wall you seem them both struggling with all their might and just...failing. They can't do anything. With one swipe of his hands Sidious has nabbed them. He then consciously releases them and draws his lightsabers. So I think the implication is pretty clear that Sidious makes the conscious choice to defeat them in the way that he does - in order to taunt them further, to make it clear beyond all doubt that no matter what they try - the Force, deception, martial skill - he has them beat on absolutely every level. The way he lazily, mockingly and slowly sidesteps Savage's attacks just prove this further.

That, and the domineering factor - Rule of Cool. It was beautiful eye candy.

 

Sidestepping was cool, and I've nothing against him using lightsabers but just not in the elaborate style he had. Powerful as Sidious is with the Force it has always seemed as though because of that perhaps his saber skill was his weaker ability (hence why he lost to Mace Windu) just as it is for Yoda. The way he was fighting against Maul & Savage it looked like he was far better than anyone in the Order, which is more the sort of thing Vader or Tyranus are skilled in.

 

I think the Dooku vs. Yoda fight and Sidious vs. Savage & Maul fights show that while Yoda and Sidious may be the most powerful Force users in the galaxy, the gap between them and the rest of the Force users isn't necessarily huge.

Mace is a 40-50 something year old human that is more or less on par with Yoda who had studied the Force for hundreds of years, and Mace (in the films and TCW) has never used telekinesis much and instead seems to favor simply using his lightsaber. And going on the films, he even faired better against Sidious than Yoda did.

Maul is an ex-Sith that Obi-Wan was able to defeat in TPM; and on Florrum he was able to temporarily match both Savage and Maul. Meanwhile Maul faired better against Sidious in Lawless than Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin or Agen Kolar did in ROTS.

Yoda (and Mace) and Sidious may be the most powerful of the bunch, but they are not untouchable demigods compared to their peers. There is a margin, but it's not HUGE.

And I think too much emphasis is put on the usefulness of telekinesis or Force lightning. Because looking at Sidious, he doesn't really have an impressive track record with Force lightning:

-Against Luke (succeeded) - Luke was unarmed
-Against Mace *1st time* (failed) - Mace was armed and it was deflected back on Sidious.
-Against Mace *2nd time* (succeeded) - Mace was unarmed and distracted by the fact that he, y'know, just had his hand cut off.
-Against Yoda *1st time* (succeeded) - Yoda was unarmed and caught off guard.
-Against Yoda *2nd time* (failed) - Despite being unarmed, Yoda was able to catch it and push it back to Sidious, causing an explosion that could have just as easily have been dangerous to Sidious.
-Against Maul (succeeded) - Maul was unarmed

Pretty much any time he chooses to use it against an unarmed opponent, it works. But when used against an armed opponent like Mace, it was completely useless.

And when it comes to telekinesis, I imagine that the Jedi/Sith must have some kind of mental block to protect themselves against it. I mean, if Maul can just walk up to Obi-Wan and Force choke him... why doesn't he just do that ALL the time? The Force as always is just a convenient device, but IU I can only rationalize it as meaning that the Jedi can shield themselves with the Force from such powers, but are vulnerable if they are distracted, dazed (as Obi-Wan was after the destruction of the Twilight), or exhausted - i.e. when they lose their focus.

 

Fair point, but I think Sidious generally is regarded better than anyone in the Order (matched only by Windu and Yoda) in saber skills as well as Force potency. Tiin, Kolar and Fisto are testament to that - even if their demises look rather cringe-worthy in ROTS thanks to the dodgy editing.

 

Yeah, they could at least have had Sidious use two sabers like he did in this episode if he was fighting 4 Jedi Masters.

As for lightning - I've always seen it more as a torture or get-out-of-jail type of ability. It's not for use against those with lightsabers (or those like Yoda who can apparently deflect it), it's for hurting the unarmed with a suprise attack or to buy you some time to get back into a fight.
Sidious over-uses it in the PT and I didn't like that, the way he suprised Luke with it in ROTJ was much better.

 

Um, maybe? They might have; at least they sounded differently voiced than by JAT or others, and different than Lanter's Mandalorian security guards.

That's neat about him being best man.

 

[QUOTE-Against Mace *1st time* (failed) - Mace was armed and it was deflected back on Sidious.][/QUOTE]

No, Windu had no strength left before Sidious pretended to be weak.

 

Word of God says Sidious lost the fight.

 

I have to say that I'm like the Maul arcs. Finally got to see Maul and Sidious fight and, of course, Sidious won. I think this may be my favorite episode of season 5 so far. My one problem with this episode was Maul pleading for his life, that's not the Maul I know.

 

What does this mean?