Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 310: Heroes On Both Sides Discussion Thread

Good points all around. Some of my own thoughts though:
1) Yeah, I always found it strange that medgacorps were a sci-fi trope when the best real life example existed in past.
Though it is also brings up some pretty big weakness of the model: running a business like a government is not profitable. By the end of its existence the EITC pretty much lived off British government handouts. And everyone back then knew it wasn't profitable: parliament kept sending the company letters complaining about how badly they were running things, before declaring them all idiots and taking direct control of the operation.

2)I would have to disagree with your depiction of the Trade Federation a bit. Qui-Gon outright says that the Trade Federation's use of a military was unusual, and was expecting quick and easy negotiations. The Naboo leaders believed that the Trade Federation wouldn't actually attack for fear of losing their trade franchise. The TF leaders are clearly uncomfortable with how things are going, at least at first.
In the expanded universe, all of these things are new. The battleships are converted freighters, the landing craft are cargo barges, the battle droids are modified security droids, the tanks and fighters are custom ordered at the last minute. Many within the Trade Federation objected to spending money on a military, even when the TF was constantly attacked by pirate

 

I have a strong feeling this could be the prison break episode we've been waiting for.

With the Separatist leadership growing smaller, a false peace treaty is proposed, and during that time Grievous uses the opportunity to send infiltrator droids into the prison on Coruscant and let everyone loose.

 

I'm not liking the idea of Grievous attacking Coruscant two times during the Clone Wars, however.

 

I'm not liking that Coruscant shows up so much in this show. I know it's the capital but come on! Make it diverse!
Why are there so many Weequayens, Ithorians, and Twi'leks? Use different models!
Why is the Jedi Council always Obi-wan, Yoda, Mace and frequently Plo Koon? They've made more than half the members!

I know I shouldn't be whining about something this stupid but if they aren't going to do Coruscant right, then don't do it at all!







Can't wait for the ep! .............................................

 

Fisto55 - budget & time constraints are a major reason why.

 

What episode was that in?

 

Grievous launched a massive attack in Revenge of the Sith.

Plus there was a terrorist bombing in the novel Wild Space.

 

It's supposed to be this one.

 

I'm not talking about TCW. In the EU, Grievous did not attack Coruscant until ROTS. The backstory of that was part of Palpatine's plan.

I'm not liking this idea of Grievous attacking Coruscant before the Battle of Coruscant itself.

 

What do you mean with "two times", then? One was in RotS, the other is when?

 

Yeah, it does somewhat detract from the unexpected shock of the ROTS attack. I was under the impression the Coruscantians had thought themselves impervious to attack up until that point.

 

I agree.

Alexrd- This episode.

 

Oh, but that's what I said, then...

 

Wasn't there some infiltration going on in the EU on Coruscant before the very end of the Clone Wars? I seem to remember that something of that sort already happened in a Republic Commandos novel.

And as these droids on Coruscant are explicitly called 'Infiltration droids' it's pretty likely that Grievous himself is not going to be involved in this attack. Its main goal is likely going to be to thwart any possibility for a peace or even a seize fire.

But it would be really surprising and interesting if they would break out Poggle and Tambor with that maneuver.

 

That is no excuse. I'm not saying TCW Team needs more characters. I'm saying that need to choose better.

Ima-gun Di: "Contact the Jedi Council."
(Dao contacts the Jedi Temple)
Who else answers than the three Jedi we could use less of!
Yoda-He may have had only two episodes to jump around with a lightsaber but lets face it, his face is really tiring now.
Mace-They need to give this guy a break. Especially after how terrible the character performed in the Fett Arc.
Obi-wan-Enough Obi-wan! He has more privelages than Anakin!

Where is Ki-adi Mundi? Shouldn't he have been in Council scenes since LOPR? What about Fisto? He has been around since TCW Film!

 

I think it's a reaction to the resurgence of corporate power in the last 50-60 years, and sci fi does love to jump to dystopian extremes. As for the EITC, my understanding was that their failure to prevent the Sepoy Rebellion was what caused them to be nationalized, which in turn was caused by their rapacious attitude towards the land, possessions and persons of India and disregard for Indian culture. How they could've been in the red when they were annexing territory left right and center is beyond me, that must've been some extra special incompetence. My interpretation is the other way around, they were acting like a corporation looking to squeeze India dry when they should've been acting like a government looking towards long term stability and growth.

Not losing their Trade Franchise was what I was referring to by Palpatine providing political cover. As for the Trade Federation's use of a military, we've seen that most of the other megacorps in the CIS contributed various units to the war effort to combine to form the droid army we all know and love to see explode, so it can't have been that unusual. That Nute Gunray is a coward I certainly can't dispute, but I never got the sense they thought they were doing something wrong, just that they were afraid they'd get caught.

Well, in the KotOR era, Czerka was the big evil megacorporation, they had conquered Kashyyyk (changed the name to Edean even) and were enslaving Wookiees and paying people on Tatooine to mass-murder Tusken Raiders. I don't know that they had a Senator but they were certainly acting the very picture of corporate excess under Republic auspices. As for the Separatist council, I don't think you would've seen the Governor-General of the EITC and thought "this guy is a businessman" either. They're deliberately crossing into a governmental role, but they're still out for money rather than governance. I think tonight's episode is the one that will have us seeing the Separatist Parliament, so I'm sure we'll get a much better idea to what extent the Separatist movement is corporate.

That Palpatine had a hand in getting Gunray into power I didn't know, Wook says Palpatine just provided the

 

Sometimes I imagine it's not a matter of character models but of actor availability. Now in Fisto's case that is harder to believe. But also, given the show is aimed at children, it is important that a familiar character is there. Ask yourself: When did Kit Fisto or Plo Koon say boo in the movies? Ki-Adi I agree with since he did have major speaking parts in the movies but I think he was a later addition and his actor may not always be available. But Mace and Yoda are the leaders of the order (Yoda Grand Master and Mace head of the Council) and so it makes sense for them to be giving the orders. They did so in the micro series as well as in the comics along with Palpatine.

As to Obi-Wan. He's the most iconic character in the show next to Anakin. He's also the only general to really fight the sith and their associates and survive often. Ki-Adi and Shaak Ti were smacked down by Grievous, more experienced jedi were felled by Ventress in the comics. But Obi-Wan killed Maul, survived Dooku and frequently holds his own against Ventress and nearly captures Grievous. So, while his inclusion is not always wanted, I can see why they do it.

 

The thing about governance is that it get very expensive. The EITC had to pay for all its soldiers, the weapons to arm them, plus all the extra administrators to run everything and generous bribes and gifts to keep the extra rulers happy. Plus, they fell into the same trap that a lot of early empires did: conquer a place to get rid of the bandits, then you get attacked by the bandits from the next place over, so you attack that place and then get raided by their neighborer etc... before they knew, they had overstretched themselves, with way more land than they could effectively manage. Now, it wasn't the only reason the EITC went under, their biggest finical problem was runaway corruption: nearly everyone "skimmed off the top" so only a fraction of the profits actually reached the rich and angry shareholders, but it certainly didn't help matters.

It is true about the other corporations. Actually, many stories in and around Naboo make the Trade Federation into aggressors, so that is obviously their trait now. I just think there is a bit of a dissonance between how they were originally portrayed and how they were portrayed later. You can see the same thing with Jedi and Sith...and the Republic and Empire to a large extent.
For example, int he early EU the Empire was less fascist and more...feudal. Lots of local rulers who swore fealty to the Empire in exchange for military protection.
Nor was I saying that they were nice guys. Just more used to legal trickery and rulebending rather than users of armed force.

What I meant by the CIS leaders didn't strike me as businessmen: I didn't mean they were lawmakers so much as they were...well, idiots. The war is costing them countless credits and massive amounts of raw material...I see no way they can make a profit from this, especially when they keep blowing up their potential customers. And that is without even getting into their individual flaws and personality quirks. That they could have risen to the heads of some of the largest businesses in galaxy on their merits...I can't see it.

 

@Yodaminch:
Yes, all very good points. But here is the problem. Our Main Characters are too good then. What is stopping about half the council from running into Dooku or Grievous and surviving? I thought the Jedi Council was great.
How is it that a Jedi who was a padawan when Yoda, Mace, Ki-adi, Saesee, and Plo were on the council manage to become so successful? Wouldn't the council have thoughts on Obi-wan being the chosen one? He offly seems like it. More so than Anakin and his dark personality...

With the order's rank of Jedi, I would have expected more from Ki-adi, Kit, and even Plo (whom I have grown to unfortunately dislike but understand his importance) to have more star-time. Those council members deserve it.

 

finally they changed their looks! i hope the clones are gonna change soon as well. that would be cool also if they have the other Jedis like Plo Koon, Kit Fisto and all of them as well.

 

i agree with you they have to change it up like add kel dor or mon calamri, because i mean they made an enitre galaxy and isnt this the clone wars? so they should the whole picture not just a planet here and there. They also have to change the background characters as well, they should have anzats, aqualishs, biths, bothans, devaronians, and much more! they should also talk about other jedis like voolvien moon or bultar swan. im withyou all the way!

 

Ah, so the EITC wasn't afflicted with extra special incompetence, it was afflicted with extra special CORRUPTION and having to pay off what local officials who's territory they couldn't take by force. Lucas would definitely approve

I only started on the EU with the Zahn novels, and even those have gotten retconned to some degree. Really wish they'd planned all this out, but Lucas seems to prefer revisionism.

The thing to remember is the Separatists didn't know about the Clone Army, they thought it was going to be an easy victory against a relative handful of Jedi, in exchange for unlimited power, as Palpatine would say. As you said, Palpatine completely duped them. After Geonosis, I think they realized unless they won their corporations were going to end up broken up/liquidated/nationalized and likely they personally were going to end up in jail or dead. Poggle seemed to think even planning the Death Star was enough to get them all screwed. They'd have had to get the Republic over a barrel at least so they could negotiate to even return things to the pre-war status quo.

 

Ugh, this episode didnt air in Canada tonight. How disappointing. What's the point in airing a rerun if we were on the same episode as the states all season long so far? Ugh, I hate teletoon!!

 

Can't be. Mainly because we know it has Ahsoka's new costume in this episode and the prison break has got to happen before Hostage Crisis in order for Aurra to be free to take part in that episode. The only way it could work is if this episode falls between Assassins and Hostage Crisis and I doubt that is the case because we know Anakin will have his new costume in this episode yet has his old Armor on in Hostage Crisis which would follow your jail break. It does not add up. It kinda has to be the lastest thing we have yet seen in the timeline.

 

I'm starting to feel that Ahsoka's new outfit was made so that boy could check her out.

"No, you're not so bad..." flirting smile.

"Ughh... boys are the same weather Republic or Separatist."



I also liked the reference to Mandalore. Also, looks like this will be the first in the "Clone Bill Trilogy", with the next episode, and Senate Murders.


All in all, an okay episode. Great animation, though.