Full Series The Clone Wars: Episode 320: Citadel Rescue Discussion Thread

Really? I knew the first second I hear the voice that I knew it was Baker. Which is great, because we can have him in every episode, like Plo Koon.

 

When I say this I was going to throw Yularen's line "of all the jedi why did I have to be stuck with skywalker."

Then i remember we have never seen Obi- Wan's admiral. So how exactly are admirals assigned.

 

I always assumed they had Yularen act as Obi-Wan's admiral as well. They assigned so many missions to Anakin and Obi-Wan together they just stuck them with one Admiral.

 

This is the reason I think personal canon is stupid:

Do you even know what canon is? Canon equals "it happened." Within the context of a fictional reality, "it happened." No ifs, ands, or buts. But it's BORING! It happened. But it's STUPID! It happened. But another part of the same overarching story conflicts with it! It...okay. THAT IS a problem.

But do you really think I like every scene of every show or movie or book? I do not. Do you think I thought Corruption and all the other political episodes of the first half of this season were the best thing since sliced cheese? No. Did I enjoy them? Nein. Did I even like them? Nyet. But do I consider them canon? Of course. Canon is not about enjoyment.

Hey, BTW, they said there was gonna be an explanation for all the political episodes in the fist half. Just what IS the reason? How has banking deregulation had any bearing on the last few eps?

 

Personal canon works iMO since Star Wars in reality is a modern day myth, these stories are mean't to be more like legends then concrete facts. Anyway, they never said the political fallout would happen this season, but that this episodes will mean something down the line, whether that is season four or five, we will have to wait and see.

 

when watching the battle with the creatures I was immediatly reminded of The Warg batte from The two towers. I half expected Anakin to fall off a cliff and have dreams about Padme.

also master piell's funeral again was like Lord Of The Rings when they sent Boromir down the Anduin river. the lavafall even had the friggen same rock formation in the middle.

 

Thought the same thing on the former, wish the wary scene had been half that good (worst sequence of the trilogy). On the latter not so much.

 

Watching for a second time, trying to keep an open mind:

- Nice to hear Yoda actually speaking properly for once. I kept arguing that in ESB and even the PT he didn't use the "backwards talk" all the time, but they took it to extremes in TCW.

- Kinda funny as someone mentioned that the Jedi can call each other on their cell phones even though it's a prison planet.

- the dialogue between Dooku and C. Walken is the type of writing that drives me crazy: obvious exposition that we've already heard 5-6 times before in this arc.

- I liked Obi-Wan's "a rather simple point of view", but I wish they had explored the Jedi as peacekeepers, rather than have them simply keep commenting about how they're peacekeepers, not soldiers. We heard that from Mace in AOTC, can't you give us something more?

- okay, the action sequence with the Wargs and STAPs is actually pretty badass, although it was still laughable how the Boss Warg goes flying offscreen when Ahsoka uses Force Push.

- turned it off when Piell died last time so this is all new territory for me. I liked the burial scene but it really had no emotional weight whatsoever for me.

- I'm not going to wage into Tinn's remark about "the Old Republic", but is this the first time he's been in a TCW battle? I'm just going to assume that he's just talking with Plo about how the war has expanded.

- sorry, it's basically impossible that Tarkin would be able to cross looking down at the lava the way he was.

- "Padawan Tano" - is that the first time we've ever heard that in the entire series?

- also laughing at Tarkin's line "you seem to have trained her well" - yeah, stabbing people with lightsabers ha ha ha.

- hmm...Plo's line "it appears I have" is interesting. Is he lying? Or is he implying that his guidance in The Citadel led Ahsoka to secretly join the team? I'm hoping that he is going to give her the gears, but it's troubling to me that there is no consequence to Ahsoka for lying whatsoever. Troubling more in the type of role model that she obviously is for young children.


- This episode, despite the death of Piell that I thought could have been avoided, at least had no obvious plot holes, unlike last week. I'm pretty tired of the inconsistent writing in the show, and certainly, given that they only have 22 minutes per episodes, I think they waste a lot of time with repetition and obvious exposition.

I still feel that this didn't need to be a trilogy - it's the only trilogy I can think of that is spent in essentially one place, and I think the idea started to drag after a while - I think that's what set me off on Friday night.

If you cut out Counterattack and just paste The Citadel & Citadel Rescue together, it's a pretty decent duology. Not much Tinn and no talking from Kit though.

 

I think Argyus said that in Cloak of Darkness.

Plo is obviously lying to protect Ahsoka. I can understand their connection, but for Ahsoka to get away like that was stupid.

 

I thought this trilogy was good but (besides Peills death) I was taken out of the trilogy a number of times when a clone trooper died and it seemed like another one replaced him. Like the ones in pajamas. Four went down the wall, one fell to his death. Next scene, four are there attacked by crab walkers. I wasn't even trying to look for it but it kept bugging me.

 

Actually, the problem wasn't with how many there were, but how many they'd show. I've managed to look into it and they kept track of how many were alive at a time, but for some reason it felt like in some group shots there were less people than are actually there, then when someone bit the dust the missing characters reappeared. Even Fives disappeared a few times.

 

Agreed it seemed they added one more 212th trooper and they brought back the R2 battle droid that was destroyed in Counterattack for Citadel Rescue.

Fives was always seen(along with Echo when he was alive) at the end of the group, protecting their flank and that's where I assumed Fives when we couldn't see him. When he warned the group of that "those creatures are gaining" he was a decent distance away from the rest of the group.

 

I think you are missing the point. I am aware the Ruusan Reformations have been established to fix this point, however it was never explicitly explained why it was referred to as ?formation/thousand years?. That seems to suggest that 1,000 years ago the Republic, as it currently stands, was CREATED. The Ruusan Reformations however are more of a reshuffle where the Republic ? as it had existed 24,000 years prior ? as a state has existed without dissolution.

This new information changes that slightly. Instead of the Republic being and unbroken government from 25,000 ? 19 BBY the Republic as a state is divided into two. There is a difference between the initial Ruusan Reformations and what the Episode Guide has stated.

By having it stated that there was a prior GOVERNMENT to the current one means that there was a First and a Second Republic. The Ruusan Reformations still stand... it is rather now the event where the First Republic was DISSOLVED and a Second was FOUNDED...

...Does that make sense?

Which is why I said Personal CANON was the wrong way to describe it; essentially it is your own personal ?continuity?. I fail to see how that could be stupid...

...ultimately I doubt anyone here accepts every little thing the EU has established as ?Canon?... in my opinion the only ?true? canon is the GU. The EU is an ?expanded? supplement to this and is a wider universe.

Do you really think George considers all of the EU canon? No. If he sees something he likes, like all of us, he likely tries to integrate it or respect it (so as to keep the stories intact). However this is yet another ?personal continuity?; it is George?s continuity. Like George said, to him the Emperor didn?t get cloned... I likewise agree.

Ultimately you can?t tell anyone what happened or what didn?t with the EU. Nothing is definitive and just because it happened in the EU doesn?t mean you have to believe it happened. It?s free will...

 

yes really- it's clear Baker but it's true i somehow managed not to think about it

One thing Chris- Star Wars is fiction and it NEVER HAPPENED... that's why canonicity is irrelevant after all and truth is point of view- personal canon is only as "stupid" as keeper of it's continuity- if you enjoy coruscant nights and didn't enjoy this- throw this away it's T-canon anyway you have to accept it's more canon than CN but then what- canon is not 'true' anyway the fact future sourcebooks will see this as fate of Even Piell- official continuity keeper Leland Chee claims Rune Haako appears in AOTC- i didn't see him- i only saw Gilramos Libkath

I don't think Obi even has an admiral in his command- he uses same fleet as Anakin - fifth fleet of the open circle fleet possibly.... I think Obi-Wan should have a captain though- in his Venator Negotiator- apparently he has none yet but i think they could assign someone for him- I hope that would be no one else but Jan Dodonna

according to Wookieepedia Admiral Block served as commander of Negotiator temporarily..... so not always.... but really... they have more admirals than captains?

 

Well, watched it again with The Boy, having been a bit underwhelmed during my own 'parental preview'. He loved it - the running battle with the Anoobas, the STAP fight over the lava, all went down a treat, although he was sad to see Piell die and more to realise that Echo wasn't coming back either. For myself I enjoyed it a lot more the second time, with an enthusiastic non-nitpicking audience at my side - this is what TCW should be: a good mix of genuine character peril (between them Piell and Echo notched up 8 episodes of TCW and 2 movie appearances - going in to the trilogy I doubt anyone would have had money on both of them leaving their crude matter behind on Lola Sayu), PT fleshing-out, OT foreshadowing, exotic locations and intense action.

I get what EU fans are saying about Piell, I really do. I enjoy EU books and comics, and have since '78, but at the same time really haven't been able to take them seriously as whole cloth since Tales From the Cantina, wherein it transpired that 90% of Chalmun's patrons are in some way involved in the Rebellion (I might add IG-88 taking over the Death Star in Tales of the Bounty Hunters too - would anyone cry if TCW retconned that one out of existence somehow?). Enjoying (or not) the story, but accepting the future revelation of its inaccuracy or downright fantasy is part of my enjoyment of the EU, a body of work I pleasurably sift in the search for 'my' version of Star Wars (one where the wings of TIE fighters are not 'solar panels', for a start).

The argument of avoiding the deaths of those characters whose fates are documented in the EU alone in favour of new characters is a good one, but I think the power of linking movie characters to TCW shouldn't be forgotten - my son at 4 has never read Coruscant Nights (in common with most people, I imagine), but he recognised Even Piell from TPM, and was excited to see him in action, and to see him fall. It lends weight to the proceedings, in a cartoon which he already refers to as 'the real Star Wars', as opposed to 'the old Star Wars' (i.e. the movies).

Personally I think no longer knowing the fates of the Council members that weren't Order 66'ed on screen adds a lot of spice to the show for those of us who are even aware of such things. If we can come to terms with Republic Jedi not being allowed to marry (which at a stroke invalidated about half the EU when it was revealed in AotC, which was heavily populated with the legitimate offspring of Jedi at the time - Kyle Katarn I'm looking at you), I think appreciating TCW as having the canonical force of the movies should allow us to see these changes as interesting, rather than frustrating.

'Course if they screw up Chewie in some way in the finale I will be filled with the rage of the righteous.

 

Review up on Den of Geek:

http://www.denofgeek.com/television/809278/star_wars_the_clone_wars_season_3_episode_20_review_citadel_rescue.html

 

Well, considering what some people have been saying about Maul's return, a little lava dunking shouldn't really be a problem...

That was my one problem with this episode. They setup the Jedi Ace team so brilliantly, and then we don't even get to see them breaching the blockade, they simply fly to the surface. That was a big letdown, WHEN IS THIS SERIES EVER GOING TO SHOW US A DECENT DOGFIGHT?!!

Yeah, I'm not sure I like the whole Plo covering for Ahsoka thing. Doesn't really seem like something a responsible Jedi Master would do.

And as for Tiin's line about there not being such a battle since the Old Republic, aside from the whole "Older Reoublic" issue, there's nothing wrong with it. He says "There have not been battles like THESE", plural, meaning the battles of the Clone Wars, not just that particular engagement.

 

Well, I really loved this episode, whatever anybody says.

- Piell's death. Very good scene, and even better funeral. Quite emotional for the series. Sure, if I had read the book where he dies and loved it, I would hate this episode, but since I haven't, I love it. That's just how it goes. All respect for those who felt cheated by this.

- The action was amazing, the animation has improved by leaps and bounds if they handle all of that non-stop onslaught. The fights were well-choreographed, with lots of cool moves. What we got from the space battle was amazing, which only made it more disappointing when they didn't follow through on it with some actual dogfighting.

- Visually this was a great episode, with lots of atmosphere. It's so nice that they made the lava yellow on Lola, otherwise it would be ridiculously similar to Mustafar. Simply making it yellow guaranteed it was its own thing.

- Tarkin was a great element. From his words to his actions, a really great character. I loved the schism at the end, with the Jedi holding on to half the intel and the Republic the other half. Up till now it always seemed they were both one and the same, but it seems they are drifting apart.

- Really liked the Anoobas. I only wish they had used Vornskrs instead. The design would be practically the same, and they would fill the roll perfectly as Jedi hunters. It would have been such a great EU nod.

- Such a shame about Domino squad. Echo was given quite a dumb death, and Fives went on to do nothing. I guess they WERE promoted to ARC Troopers too soon, they weren't ready for this...


I think I'm really back in full swing with this series, after Mortis and now this, I'm really enjoying the show. It's a pity to hear that Garth is so disheartened, but to each his own. The Darth Maul Sword of Damocles is still hanging over my head, and my regard to the show could change quickly and drastically depending on how they handle him, so I can relate to Garth's frustration.

 

It seems Commando droids are becoming the go-to guys for scenes of not-completely-one-sided combat. Only problem is they seem a little less elite with each appearance, their numbers growing and their 'deaths' coming sooner. I just like having CIS forces that aren't complete pushovers. And it doesn't hurt that they look awesome too.

 

Well, so we wrap up this trilogy and are now forced to wait three weeks for the finale. Personally, as can be predicted by nearly everybody, I enjoyed it. The trilogy had a darker tone to me. Not as dark as Mortis, but fairly dark. I wonder if the writers have competitions to come up with the most gruesome ways to kill clones before network censors get annoyed.

Peill's death was a very somber moment, especially since I suspect most people went into it expecting he was going to live. I liked the touch of them having a brief memorial for him.

Tarkin's interactions with everyone else remained spot on I think. In fact they did such a good job with that I was having to convince myself that this wasn't Peter Cushing. I mean obviously the voice was different, but the tone, the language, it just so reminded me of the original.

So Fives lives to fight another day. I'll be interested to see if they do anything further with him.

Then there's Ahsoka. I imagine people are complaining that she wasn't punished for her actions at the end of the episode. They have a point. I mean, for me personally I have this image in my mind of Plo taking her aside quietly for a few words about her behavior, but that's just me. I think he really does have a soft spot for her and I state once again I desperately want them to explore their backstory, if not in the series then in a book or comic or something related.

Some would say, though, it sends a bad message to children about getting away with lying. You know, I think some of us being children of the eighties are a bit spoiled when it comes to cartoons needing to deliver a moral message. I mean back then when I was growing up 95% of cartoons on TV had one and most took a minute or so at the end of each episode to break the fourth wall and whack you upside the head with it, so it's something we were used to. These days it seems like it's gone out of style, and cartoons that still do are largely to be found on stations for younger children like Nick Jr. or Qubo, probably because children are more impressionable at those ages. So, maybe when we see cartoons these days that let their characters get away with all these things we wonder what children are learning from it. I don't have children myself nor am I a child psychologist, so it's nearly impossible to offer an educated opinion, but I can understand where people who do are coming from when they complain about stuff like this.

I think overall it was a pretty solid trilogy and it's frustrating they're making us wait till next month for the finale. I guess I have time to go back and re-watch the whole season between now and then.

 

Interesting retrospective of the era of "KNOWING IS HALF THE BATTLE!". I suppose, in defense of...well, morally defensible actions (e.g. if Plo addressed Ahsoka's lying), while I wouldn't say we need a full, flat out disapproving comment, there are some subtle ways it could have been dealt with, like sighs or body language. Nothing that takes much screentime, but is visible enough to convey meaning.

That's one of the main things I seem to notice in both the show and the forums: They COULD have avoided or added something with minimal effort, but they didn't. But that's from our not-entirely-complete knowledge, and is softened with the hope for future material to explore it. Not something I'm personally hung up on, but in some cases missed opportunities can be pretty prominent.
EDIT: Prime example in my head is what'll become of Fives. Sure, I'd loved it if he had proper dialogue to show us what he's thinking here. On the other hand, I have the sneaking suspicion that he'll be explored in-depth later on, when the plot doesn't have to concern itself with Jedi Masters, Republic Captains, hyperspace routes, and the like.

But heck, the sheer entertainment value of this episode astounded me!

Yeah, there's the loss of their mystique which is totally understandable, though for me, it's the usage I'm looking forward to. I do hope they find an appropriate balance in the future. At least here, in the Citadel, they have an excuse for sending them in en masse.

I also thought that, while it ultimately didn't quite add up, putting Commando droids together with STAPS is actually a pretty deadly combination. From what I've seen, STAPS are great for strafing runs from a distance, but the B1s that usually pilot them are easily shot down. If you added a pilot who could take a few shots, that ups their effective combat time.

...In theory, at least. And of course, there's the whole 'Jedi jumps on and presses the action button to one-hit-kill you' scenario.

 

Still, Tarkin's comment about why the Jedi should not be leading troops in the war makes no sense to me. Sure, the Jedi are peacekeepers, but they also are a quasi-military organization. And the Jedi are winning battles. What more does Tarkin want from the Jedi? And Tarkin didn't do any leading himself. Maybe the series should show other Jedi being the main protagonist by leading missions and fighting, and using more complex stories like the EU. The Jedi in the EU had no problem killing sentient beings or bombarding planets.

Also, Tarkin looked like he was going to kill an unarmed Sobeck. I know this was suppose to make him look hardcore, but it made him look more like a fool to me. Sobeck, we can assume is a high ranking CIS officer, so why kill him unnecessarily when you could capture him and try to get intelligence off of him. He is not some Sith Lord like Dooku. The show could have ended with Tarkin boarding that transport shuttle at the end of the episode, and showing Sobeck chained up inside. Tarkin could have looked at him, smirked, and said "Now it is our turn to question you."

As for Ahsoka. It was the will of the force that she came along? Using that logic, you can say it was the will of the force that Alderaan was destroyed. To join the mission Ahsoka had to freeze herself and then get herself boarded on the shuttle, and she did this without anyone helping or stopping her. And Plo covers for her at the end. This is just bad writing in order for her to win. And what is Ahsoka doing refusing to give the info to Palpatine as Tarkin instructed. If Tarkin is supposed to be a navy captain, then he outranks her, and Palpatine outranks both of them. Isn't this insubordination on her part. But no problem, because it is Ahsoka we are talking about, and it must be the will of the force that she doesn't give the coordinates up.

Piell death. So Lucas is overwriting EU again. Oh well, I'm use to it. I mix things up for my own canon anyway. But I didn't like the fact that once again a Jedi, not of the big three, is reduces to a side character to be either captured, killed, or just an incompetent fool who needs Anakin, Obi-Wan, or Ahsoka to save them.

And where did the secret hyperspace coordinates come from, and how did Piell and Tarkin find out about it. If someone told them, and wouldn't the CIS and Republic be looking for that person too. And if this info is not something being set up by Palpatine and Dooku, wouldn't they be doing everything to keep this info secret. Like Dooku going to the Citadel himself to get the info personally.

 

The amount of troopers stayed accurate, but I'm still a tad confused about the Naval officers. Three die and one survives, but I could have sworn there were five... Also, yes one of Artoo's droids was destroyed during Counterattack only for us to have three again in Citadel Rescue. >.<

Also, anyone else disappointed they didn't discuss Even Piell's death in the Episode Commentary?