ST The Cohesion/Direction/Structure Of The ST & It's Pros & Cons

Well, for one thing, Vader realized that he had become a monster and carried out his own sentence while also having a far more difficult past than Ben ever did. That's kind of the ultimate difference, really. Anakin could have felt like his past justified his actions but he didn't. Ben, on the other hand, is the worst kind of human being that can exist. The kind of person who is practically born into affluence and then only hungers for more. In this sense, he's more similar to the Emperor than Vader. He just cries more about it. I mean, you could just as easily argue that Palpatine transformed the galaxy into his image as well.

 

Again, this all makes the OT, by itself, just as terrible by this standard.

You're basically saying that Vader is more sympathetic because of his past, even though Vader committed far, far more crimes than Kylo has at this point? That doesn't make any sense.

 

He literally commits the same kinds of crimes and they yield equally (if not more) devastating results.

 

Kylo has been in the Unknown Regions for 6 years.

Vader was the enforcer of the Empire for over 20 years.

Even by the numbers we see killed Vader exceeds Kylo easily.

 

The First Order also wiped out an entire solar system in the blink of an eye. Clearly, they're doing a good job of outdoing their predecessors.

 

If we are going to blame someone for everything their regime does (I think it should be specified to things they knew about) then you have to account for the fact Vader oversaw 20 years of imperial atrocity.

I simply can't see how Vader could be thought of as any better than Kylo Ren.

 

Aren't Hux, Ben and Snoke practically the inner circle of the First Order? If he was at Nuremberg, he'd be among the first to hang for that very reason.

It's not that one is more moral than the other. It's just that one is less viscerally insulting than the other. Vader fully understands that he is the aggressor while Ben doesn't. He just mopes.

 

There is still one more film in this trilogy. Seems there are a lot of complaints about Ben not owning up or taking responsibility for his horrendous actions. Vader didn't do any of that in ANH or TESB, he more so just attributed it to the dark side being more powerful. It's very clear that a Ben Solo redemption has been hinted upon throughout the first two installments through various scenes highlighting that Ben's humanity is still there. We could just wait for the trilogy to wrap up before concluding that Ben never took any responsibility for his crimes.

 

Yes, but so would Vader.

One is clearly more comfortable with his position and the other isn't. Just like in the same way Anakin was 'whining' about it in ROTS. I don't understand how Vader is more sympathetic in ROTS?

 

Why are people acting as if Ben doesn't know he's doing bad things? He literally admits as such to Rey "You're a monster" "Yes I am".

He's only shown clear guilt about one act so far, and that's killing Han.

 

Can you give an example? Kind of confused as to what you mean by owned up to his crimes. It's kind of meaningless if he keeps committing them. Worse, IMO.

Can you give me an example of where Kylo Ren complained that he was sad after the Hosnian System blew up?

Hehe, I was literally just typing that and your comment showed up.

 

They’re both incredibly cruel and murderous. Vader, thanks to the prequels, was dopey and because of that is more tragic without a doubt. He’s like Reek from Game of Thrones if Reek was physically imposing and incredibly powerful because both he and Reek are basically programmed like dogs for their masters into shallow shells who will do whatever they’re told.

Anakin was incredibly powerful and talented obviously but he fell hook line and sinker for Palpatine’s poorly explained pitch of saving Padme and Palpatine’s pathetic “Help, I’ve fallen and I can’t get up routine” and goes from “He must stand trial” to “I will be your personal executioner for the rest of my life starting with Jedi children.” He became a glorified hitman and even told his own son “the Emperor is your new Master now” for a time.

Ben Solo is more all of his bloodline combining in strange ways. He has his dad’s opportunism, willingness to attack first, his mother’s drive, ability to influence others, and willingness to let others underestimate her to their own demise, and his grandfather’s emotional frailty and a lot of his power. That is a compelling mix for a villain. Equally compelling is that he has the same weakness for beautiful and strong brunettes his Grandfather and Father had. Where that leads with him we will have to see in IX. I do think he’s less further down the path and set in his ways than Anakin was at the age of the OT. Not much closer but slightly closer. He also seems more focused on having the power to build something new while ending all of the old factions. Including the Sith.

 

The Vader revelation works so well because, up until that point, Luke's father had been built up as a great hero in both Luke's and the audience's minds to that point. That buildup also sets up Anakin's return to the light beautifully as it's a return to the man he once was. Kylo, on the other hand, hasn't been built up as anything but a spoiled brat. It's hard to find him sympathetic, because there's never been any real indication he was ever a different person. Worse, while Kylo shows conflict, he frequently makes the worst possible choice anyway. Other than being the son of Han and Leia, I have absolutely no reason to expect or want him 'saved' any more than Hux or Snoke.

The Emperor worked in the OT because he was the architect of the setting we were thrust into. That he had no backstory worked because neither did anything else. The lack of explanation for Snoke, on the other hand, doesn't work precisely because the earlier six films exist. At the end of Return of the Jedi we see our heros celebrating the defeat of the bad guys. Fast forward to TFA and suddenly we learn some incredibly powerful dark side user named Snoke managed to tear about the Skywalker family, corrupt the next generation and scatter the rest while becoming the head of a large neo-Imperial group, despite having no foreshadowing in the earlier movies.

 

Pretty sure you can’t be a Dark Sider against your will. Ben Solo isn’t under some sort of curse. He has agency and choice. THAT is how the Force works...

 

Precisely, and I don't know why people can't grasp this. It is so out of whack with the rest of the saga. The jump from ROTJ to TFA practically says: "Yeah, all that stuff about the Rebels defeating the Emperor and his Empire...well that didn't really make any difference, and now we have a new Emperor figure for some reason, but we don't need to explain it".

 

As a starting point for analysis, I think we can all agree that Snoke is quite clearly older than the 30 years that passed since ROTJ.

I also find very reasonable to say that there is a very high chance that Snoke knew the Dark Side for more than 30 years, which would put him as contemporary with Sidious.

Nobody knew or felt Snoke in the Force during that time. The explanation for this can only be two: either he was too far hidden in the Unknown Regions, waiting for his chance, or Sidious felt a presence in the unknown regions but was not able to investigate it completely.

I am willing to bet on the first option, that he was hiding in the unknown regions, far away from all other Force users, waiting for the perfect time to start his plan.

In my point of view, there is no need for an explanation for Snoke, he was just there. His existence does not invalidate the other six movies, not at all.

 

"The dark side clouds everything."

 

Even the audience.

 

I was jokingly referring to the oft played joker when justifying the entire Republic era Jedi order's lack of vision.

"Unknown regions" is good enough. The old republic did not consider there to be anything dangerous there, as proved by the millennium of having no contingency(republic army) in case something did emerge.

 

Yes, but they had a reasonable amount of time to acquire such complacency. They were lulled into a false sense of security.

 

And nothing has emerged to shake that security about what's out there. The Imperials have been tucked away there for that reason.

 

When Sheev has been built up as the ultimate big bad over six movies, and his rise and fall chronicled, and Vader's story as well. But then this new guy shows up doing the same kind of stuff, but you don't bother to explain anything about him and where he's been, yes you DO need to delve more deeply into it, especially if you're saying that he's more powerful than Sheev and Vader.

I call it what it is, he's a lazy plot device for lazy writing, and that's the thing about the ST. It's "OT-lite, but more rushed, not as well set-up. and less interesting."