Lit The Definitive Sinre Poll Series: Was Vergere as a Sith a good retcon?

If you thought the NJO was taking SW to a morally ambiguous place, you fooled yourself. NJO is the story of how Jacen completely purges himself of all darkness, and embraces universal compassion beyond what even the greatest Jedi before him have achieved; Vergere is the mentor that strips him of all excuses to do otherwise.

 

That's what I assumed for a long time as well; however, some other information I've come across in the last few years - most notably this post by xezene, which Trip already linked to further up the page, but I'm linking it again because it's excellent and I want everyone to read it - has led me to adopt a different outlook.

I mean, the original question is whether the Sith retcon was a good one, and my answer to that is intrinsically tied up in the impact that retcon had both on the post-NJO narrative and retroactively on the NJO itself. No, making Vergere a Sith didn't necessarily have to change anything about her relationship with Jacen, but from an OOU perspective, it's as you say: the writers wanted to be able to paint the things Jacen learned in a sinister light, as though his descent into darkness was an inevitability of the entire EU rather than a course foisted upon him by a team of creatives. We can make all the arguments we want about what the characters believed or didn't believe, or chose to do or didn't choose to do, but ultimately, Denning was looking to set up Jacen's fall, so that's what happened, and that's why he spent 27 pages detailing Vergere's supposed Sith status.

Certainly not; in fact, I think it would have made for a more interesting and nuanced story if Jacen's fall was an unintended consequence of Vergere's well-intentioned teachings, or if his motivations had been largely removed from what she taught him. I still don't think dark side Jacen should have been the endgame of the post-NJO, nor should it have been the focus of an entire series - but neither do I think he would or should have been immune to temptation in that regard, and if the pros just absolutely felt they had to show Jacen going dark (even temporarily), they could have done it without changing anything at all about Vergere. (They also could have done it without changing Jacen's entire personality, but that really is getting away from the topic.) Anyway, it shows a disappointing lack of creativity that the Sith retcon was the best they could come up with, just as it's disappointing that, in a saga built on themes of hope and redemption, they decided to do yet another Skywalker scion falling to the dark side and then killed him off before he could even attempt to return to the light.

 

And weirdly (well, it'd be weird if the editorial direction had been competent, anyway), this actually wound up being the case anyway - the way FOTJ tried to posthumously present/retcon Jacen's motivations had essentially nothing to do with Vergere in the end after all.

 

Oh man, don't even get me started on the absurdity of Jacen committing countless atrocities for the sake of Allana's grand cosmic destiny.

 

Going through the posts, many good points here in this thread. I wanted to pick up on one particular strand.

Yes, this is entirely right. That was absolutely intentional and it was the inspiration for her characterization by Stover. He said that he used Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching as the inspiration for her character as well as the material, and methods, of Zen Masters of history. In particular, she reminds me of the Chinese Zen Master Lin-ji (renamed Rinzai in Japanese) who had so many quotes where he sounds a lot like her -- very direct, very questioning, challenging, provocative, real. A lot of the stuff of the early Zen/Ch'an masters reminds me of her, with their koans and challenging lessons -- in fact I can really thank Traitor for getting me interested in that stuff proper. It's fitting for Stover to be inspired in this way -- a Zen teacher I had once in high school remarked to me that Yoda was an 'old Taoist sage.' Zen being the blend of Taoism and Buddhism, it absolutely fits. Stover has said before, what she presents to Jacen is essentially the same lesson as Yoda does to Luke with the cave, but perhaps more layered, more Socratic, with more than a hint of Nietzsche (side-note: it was when I got into college and studied Nietzsche's take on suffering that I realized Stover had done a great job running through this in Traitor).

There is an old Zen saying: 'Great doubt, great awakening. Some doubt, some awakening. No doubt, no awakening.' Well, we know Jacen has his doubts. Vergere recognizes that, and recognizes his potential. She wants to manifest it. As a recent Zen teacher put it, "It's the doubt of not believing an idea or a person. It's doubt that recognizes that there is no thing to hold onto. So if you find yourself grasping some thing, doubt that. Then you find the freedom of not grasping. Then you see the nature of the questions you've been asking, and beyond that, you can see for yourself." This, among other things, is essentially what Vergere is trying to teach Jacen. The dark side ain't 'out there,' it won't take him over like a possession from without. All that comes from what is inside him, and the need for control only strengthens that inner dark side. If he realizes that he is the center of his life, the Gardener as Vergere puts it, to borrow a term from modern psychology, bringing his locus of control internally, he finds his strength within, he can find his balance. He can let go and be the answer. This is ultimately what transformation is about.

Denning said once on his blog years ago that the moment Vergere said 'there is no dark side,' he 'knew' she was a Sith. This just goes to show that in this particular case Denning was a poor student. A good teacher will throw you off balance, provoke you, challenge your beliefs. Vergere does that, and if he read on, he would know this point is clarified -- in fact in the same paragraph it is clarified. Denning does not see this. His misunderstanding of the lesson is what became unfortunately the basis for his future he charted for the EU.

It was brought up before in this thread by @Jedimarine that perhaps this material was too provocative for some to handle. There may be some basis of truth there. Although Jacen ends up meeting the universe with love, many important things, even cherished ideas in our own world, are questioned in Traitor and throughout NJO, particularly to do with ethical questions and questions of action. I brought up Nietzsche before, and having had just a little brush with the history of his work (and how it was later mischaracterized to be Nazi-like, which he would detested), I remember when I first read Dark Nest's prologue, with a strong sense of disquiet I read Denning's words that he forces into Jacen's mouth:

Even then I knew this was alarming, because Denning was conflating or equating Jacen's enlightenment, and his view of meeting the universe with love, as being some kind of Faustian arrogance in being beyond morality. This specific usage of this famous phrase, 'beyond good and evil,' was a clear indicator of the parallel being drawn here. I knew this had happened before -- to Nietzsche's work. As Stover explained on this very forum:

I would highlight here that Stover also draws a parallel between Nietzsche's provocative statements and the work of the Taoist masters, which I again think culminates in Vergere. But back to the point; I just think Denning didn't know what he was talking about, and instead characterizes this more profound material as essentially being heretical, delusional, evil teaching. This is a problem because the material that Stover presents to us is paralleled directly by material from Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. Stover even says that Lucas told him point blank when writing Revenge of the Sith about the 'dark side' being within, not without (and Williams confirmed Vergere's philosophy passed Lucas' muster personally). Material was even changed in the ROTS novelization to make that clear. If Denning characterizes not only Jacen's questioning, but Vergere's essential philosophy, as evil, is that not by extension characterizing the Zen and Taoist elements of the films as evil as well? I believe so. And in this fundamental respect, I think the work of the 'Denningverse,' the post-NJO, is fundamentally at odds with the heart of the saga.

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This winding post has turned a bit into an essay, but I'd like to end on a note that goes back to the core of this thread -- Vergere and who she is. It suddenly occurred to me last year after delving into some mythology, as well as after a recent watch of Chamber of Secrets, that Vergere in NJO resembles many of the attributes given to the mythological creature of the phoenix. From her multicolored, rainbow feathers to her bird-like nature to the specific elements of her character, she brought clearly to my mind the image of the phoenix, particularly the Chinese version. Upon realizing this, I looked into it more -- we know that Luceno was well-versed in mythology and so would have known to draw upon this when creating her character. Vergere's healing tears seem also reminiscent of a phoenix, and this plays a fundamental role throughout the series. Classically, the phoenix is the creature of rebirth, of death -- Jacen himself, believed dead, told he is 'dead' by Vergere, who herself tells him she is his guide through the lands of the dead -- and then of life, with Jacen being reborn, both to himself and the galaxy at large, as a person who has emerged anew. In ancient China, a phoenix was often presented in a female form, but she would signify the marriage of opposites -- of yin and yang, of light and shadow, of chaos and order -- and it was said the sighting of the elusive phoenix, who would cloak herself in times of disharmony (Vergere is missing for many years), would signal the imminent arrival of a new leader. In Chinese history, this was associated with the Chinese emperor, but I believe we can read this as being Jacen himself -- the new spiritual voice of the Jedi.

With all this in mind, through someone I know who went to LegendsCon, I asked him to ask Stover if this vision of Vergere as a phoenix was intentional. I knew that Luceno had created Vergere, not Stover, but I was curious. Stover answered the question, much to my joy, with the answer that he believed Luceno did intend for her to be phoenix-like. Which I personally think is really cool.

With all this said, if we all put it all together -- the achievement and insight of the NJO series is built upon these elements, of philosophy and mythology, which in my opinion were done very well, at times with real mastery -- all of which were promptly cast aside, ignored, and/or mischaracterized in their extreme afterwards by people who unfortunately didn't understand what was conveyed, and it's a real shame. Denning has said he knows Jacen 'could have become more Qui-Gon than Qui-Gon' after NJO, but chose to ignore this path in favor of his own direction, which I believe came from a limited understanding and philosophical immaturity on some level. Not to insult the author(s), but just being direct here. So, long story short -- the retcon was a very poor decision, to put it lightly.

 

It was better when Jacen said it wasn’t about any one person, but the Galaxy as a whole. Before Allana became his Padme. But his motivations changed so much. In Betrayal itself, it was all about saving Luke’s life. But no one remembers that.