The Demonizasion of Anakin Skywalker and the Sainthood of Obi-Wan Kenobi. A character discussion.

I have been reticent to join this thread for a number of reasons, but I would like to pick up a point: Your view of Obi-Wan (and Yoda, for that matter) may depend to a large degree on how you view the reasoning for their lies and urging of Paricide. I have been accused, justly, of having a lead character in my fics demonize Obi-Wan Kenobi as a dishonorable liar and traitor to those who trusted him. I grant that Obi-Wan may have had faith in Anakin's potential redemption, and perhaps the lies were designed to show some element of goodness might be hidden within Vader. However, if so, it show a disconnect between the PT Obi-Wan and the OT one. The PT Obi-Wan has all the flaws of the Jedi Order: too rigid, arrogant, blinded by their code and traditions, and unable to react quickly, or at all, to situations challenging their most deeply held beliefs. in short, I find it difficult to believ that the PT Obi-Wan would not just see Luke as a weapon to do his duty...After all, no attachments.(This of course raises another question for which I must credit a friend of mine: Has Lucas inadvbertantly made the Jedi Order one of the lead villians of the PT?) The OT Obi-Wan is wiser than this, but he is emotionally damaged. At heart, he blames himself for Vader, but, perhaps fatally for the above note dtheory of the lies, he regrets that he trained Anakin, not any of the things that may have lead Anakin to think going Dark was reasonable, logical, and right. He may think that Anakin can be saved in his heart, but the context of the lines leads me to think that in his head, Anakin died when he went dark. So, recognize him for what he is first an arrogant, overly rigid man, and then a regretful, less than totally insightful man. He is no saint, just a man.

As to the demonization of Anakin...It is easy to do, and it is unfair and not particularly true to the character. I lay the blame for this at Lucas's feet. He focused too much on the James Dean/Holden Caufield-like idiot brat elements of the character. Anakin is damaged goods, no doubt. He cannot be accurately written without paying attention to his pain and insecurities. He is no more evil incarnate than the rest of us, and his fall should be an understandable one. Of course, we shall see in Episode III, if Lucas can actually make the fall make sense and seem believable, given the spoilers, I have my concerns.

There is my ramble for the day....

 

Wow!! What a great thread. Great title, too.

Many people have pointed out that how one writes a particular character greatly depends on the individuals interpretation of that character, and I agree.

Is Qui-Gon a good man who is willing to defy the Council in order to obey the will of the Force, or is he a guy who thrusts a knife in his padawan's back in an attempt to get his way?

Is Obi-Wan a man so loyal that he would risk his own standing among the Jedi in order to fulfill his master's wishes (dying or otherwise), or is he a sarcastic, undemonstative taskmaster who is hell bent on the rules?

Did Anakin fall because of his master's shortcomings, or because of his own?

The truth (if there can be such a thing in what is clearly fiction) is probably somewhere in between.

That being said, the extremes are possibilities for these characters. Don't believe me- think about the extremes of Anakin's portrayal in TPM vs ESB.

CYN's work was used an example of the "Saint Obi" variety, and I agree. But I happen to enjoy that interpretation of the character a great deal (as do many others)- right down to the every last description ginger hair and enchanting eyes (as someone poked fun at earlier).

I would ask that, if a person dislikes the way an author handles a character simply click somewhere else. Bashing a person for their personal interpretation on a character discourages the more shy ones from posting and results in half finished stories (very frustating to those who were actually enjoying the author's portrayals.)


EDIT: I had to add funny little story concerning a comment made that an author's characterization is often influenced by whether or not she has an attraction to the character's portrayer.

I once clicked on a story on ff.n without paying any attention to the rating. Needless to say my eyes must have bulged out of my head at what could have passed for hardcore porn material.

"What is it?" my son asked.

"It's what happens when they cast Ewan McGregor as Obi-Wan," was all I could say.

 

Forgive the interuption but Bashing a person for their personal interpretation on a character is an incredble No-Go here or in any part of our community. Remember, this discussion is about the characterization in our works and why we do it or how we see them. I find the various points of veiw being presented wonderfully varied and respectful of the posters, even when we disagree with the points made...

 

Opal: As much as CYN adores Obi-Wan, I definitely don't think she writes him one-dimensionally. I also think she does a hell of a job not writing Anakin one-dimensionally, considering how much she hates him. I consider this a measure of her talent as a writer--she does not let her personal feelings for the characters interfere with how they are supposed to be portrayed. That is a big issue I have with people who write Saint-Obi or Evil-Ani fics...not only are they inaccurate, but they are also a measure not of how the character really is, but how the writer feels about the character.

No one wants to "discourage shy people from writing"...but these are George's characters. Accurate portrayals are not too much to ask for. And I personally can't stand walking into a thread in which people are screaming for saintly adorable ginger-haired Obi to spear Anakin the whiny little evil brat with his lightsaber. It's just wrong. Accurate characterization is one of the things the Fan Fiction Archive reviewers check for, so it must be important to someone besides me.

 

saintly adorable ginger-haired Obi to spear Anakin the whiny little evil brat with his lightsaber. It's just wrong. Accurate characterization is one of the things the Fan Fiction Archive reviewers check for


*bites toung HARD!*

 

Yep, little inside joke there, Breezy--but you know what I meant anyway.

 

Breezy I hope you didn't misunderstand me. I was actually agreeing with what most everybody said: characterization greatly depends on an individual's interpretation of said character.

Most people around here are very respectful even when disagreeing (far more so than in the 3SA forum), but there is the occasional nit-wit as stated by some of the authors on page 1.

Why does a person write a character as they do? I can only assume because it's fun for them to do so.

a_g You'll get no argument from me in that CYN writes very layered characters (by far one the best writers on these boards). She was pointed to earlier as a "saint obi " writer by someone, and I was merely saying that I enjoy her depictions- sainted obi and all.

I beleive the most important thing that the archives look for is a well written story. There is wiggle room for a person's interpretation of a character, but as you stated, one-dimensional characters don't make well written stories and therefore don't really belong in the archives.

On the boards, however, it can be argued that many are either just having fun with a character, or experimenting with their writing- everything's game.

People screaming for a ginger haired Obi to skewer little Ani with his lightsaber? I'm not saying that it doesn't happen (it does), but I think that would revoke his sainthood.

 

Actually, I said that I thought CYN's depiction of Obi-Wan fit the Sainted catagory. And CYN agreed To the charge of writing Obi-Wan as an angelic being: Guilty as charged - and I offer no defense. She went on to explain further (I won't quote the whole thing. If you want to reread it, see page 1). She's brilliant as usual.

I only said that because a couple of others had said that she wrote the most accurate picture of Obi-Wan on the boards and I disagreed. CYN's work is absolutely superb but we all have our own takes on the depictions of the characters (I admit to a fondness for Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan) and we can disagree with others without bashing. I read CYN's work with relish - it's really wonderful - full-fleshed characters, intricate plots and heartwrenching stories.


As for skewering Anakin, please don't do that. We need him to be there for Luke's inception!

 

Well, rogue_winter, I have to say that that was a very well thought out post. I still haven't fully absorbed all the comments but I just wanted to say something about one or two you made:

...arrogance is embodied in Obi-Wan?s personae. The Obi-Wan of Episode 1 is an elitist ...he was quite willing to leave Jar Jar to whatever fate awaited him in the Gungan city after Jar Jar had helped them.... He was disinterested in Anakin - all Obi-Wan could see was his Master?s latest wild cause -

I think Obi-Wan is more insensitive than arrogant. In TPM, it's more glaring because he's next to Qui-Gon who is this big mountain of empathy. I don't think Obi-Wan worries about saying hurtful things as long as he thinks they're true. Which is the typical 'Jedi' way, anyway. And well, his idea of leaving Jar Jar in the Gungan City and his attitude to Anakin is pure Obi-Wan: we'll do exactly as the Council instructed. Anything outside that is a waste of time at the best, heresy at the worst.


He could have written a story that had Obi-Wan (as an apprentice or solo Jedi Knight) land on Tatooine instead of his Master, find Anakin and insist, based on feelings of affection and possessiveness, on training Anakin himself. But George Lucas did not go that way. And we have to assume that he did that for a reason.

Very original point and one I had certainly never thought about before; I am of the PT generation so we tend to see things upside-down - or is it rightside up? That is solid logic: why else didn't George Lucas keep to the original story and have Yoda be Obi-Wan's Master? In fact, now that I think about it, TPM didn't even need to start with Obi-Wan as a Padawan. He could have been a full Knight trained by Yoda. After all, Yoda does take Padawans e.g. Dooku.

Well, I had been planning to just comment a little on some of the insights on Padme but I find that the discussion has veered onto a narrower part! I definitely take all the credit (well, most credit Breezy, OK? ) for reviving this thread!

I think people misinterpret Padme often because she's not as fleshed out as Obi-Wan and Anakin. I mean, she's not even in the OT, except for a mention or two, so there's much less for an author to go off of.

To a certain extent, that depends on the writer's orientation: PT vs. OT. Luke, Leia and Han are strictly OT characters but they are well 'fleshed out' all the same. In fact taking rogue_winter's points on Star Wars continuity, it seems that the more movies a character appears in, the more contradictory the character seems! So, the less we see of her, the truer a picture we get - as long as the writer is willing to work within the facts, use a little imagination but not over-improvise. But that is quite a lot of work and unless one has a particular empathy with a character, most writers prefer the simpler 'standardized' OCs. And it goes without saying that Padme is an extremely complex character.


Some very good points have been made all around and there's plenty food for thought.

 

Umm...why do people around here insist on taking offense where none is intended?
I wasn't attacking you or anyone else for pointing out that she writes an angelic Obi- she does.

I did catch the post where CYN agreed to writing a sainted version of the character, and I never suggested otherwise.

I was simply saying that there are those who enjoy it, those who don't, and that everything is fair game in fan fic.

Obi can't skewer little Ani. He would have to return the halo if he did.

 

Opal if you were addressing me, I didn't take offense at all! I was agreeing with you and just wanted to set the record straight as to who said it. That's all. Really....

That is the problem with the written word sometimes. So much of conversation and language is transmitted through visual cues... and the real message is often muddied with words!

 

I'll just jump in here with the majority and agree that this is a great discussion.

I think each author's characterization depends on what he or she believes the individual's motives are. I suspect that it has less to do with whether or not they hate the character and more to do with what they want that character to achieve for them in the course of the story.

I just mentioned elsewhere on the board that Anakin has a lot of anger and resentment, mostly because he got the short end of the stick many times in his young life. GunraysLawyer said much the same thing here. Authors have no trouble picking up on this about Anakin.

The one-dimensional characterization problem tends to come in when they use it in a strict sense - i.e. justifying his demonization, engendering sympathy for him, etc. My preference for a canon characterization is a combination of the two because I think that's what Lucas intended.

To be true to Anakin or any character a writer has to make them multidimensional, with overwhelmingly complex motives. The fact is, I don't think all authors care about motive or about staying true to Lucas's vision of a character. I'm not saying this is good or bad, just the way things seem to be. If they are writing for their own enjoyment then they can characterize someone any way they want. I just won't be one of their readers if their version of a canon character skews too far from my own (and I don't think I'm the only one who feels that way). We've all got only so much free time to spend reading.

When I come across a story that sticks Anakin into the "little demon force-user" category I quickly quit reading. It isn't that it makes me angry. It's just that I can't follow what doesn't strike me as "true." I am the same with any other character I like.

Interesting point about attraction to the character determining how the author portrays them. I don't think this is true, at least not for my own case. I never felt attraction to Hayden Christensen's Anakin. He (Hayden) is a beautiful young man and from an artists standpoint I have no problem appreciating his physical beauty, its just that his Anakin always seems young and immature (kudos to Hayden because Ani is supposed to seem that way.) When I write him, though, I do try to show why Padme finds him irrisistible (seems to strike a chord with the readers who share her fascination ).

BTW, I'm not knocking authors who use their own attraction to write a character. I certainly wrote my share of fics in the 80's speaking to the many charms of a certain scoundrel named Han Solo...

 

Thank you, diane for making that clear, as I was under the assumption that I had offended you and about half a dozen other people who I thought I was agreeing with.

 

Well, doesn?t that depend on what is more important: the happiness of the one or the happiness of the many? In the words of JK Rowling?s Dumbledore: the truth is generally preferable to lies. And there were so many other lies that Obi-Wan could have said. He could have said Anakin Skywalker died in the Clone Wars - which is another truth from a certain point of view - and left it there. He chose the one that would ensure an immediate enmity between Luke and Vader.


Did he deliberately choose a lie that would ensure Luke's hatred of Vader - or did he choose a lie that allowed Luke to see Vader as everyone else in the galaxy at that point in time did?

Okay, I know it sounds like I'm vociferously defending Obi-Wan for doing this. I'm not - he lied to Luke, and he ensured, by allowing Vader to strike him down in front of Luke, that Luke would now have two reasons to hate Vader. My problem with portraying Obi-Wan as a callous liar is I believe he always did what he thought was right - that he acted according the Code that he had been steeped in all of his life. "I serve" - and in his view, and probably that of Yoda and the rest of the Order, the personal happiness of one young man paled in comparison to the need to rid the galaxy of the evil of Palpatine and Vader. For whatever reason, he seems to believe that Anakin is beyond redemption. Because of the nature of the Jedi Order, Obi-Wan obviously had no idea how powerful the ties of blood were, how the depth of his old Padawan's love for his wife and children would allow him to return to the light.

I agree with Gunray's Lawyer that Lucas may have (knowingly or otherwise) set up the old Jedi Order as the secondary villians of the saga. Certainly their own complacency, blindness, and rigidity contributed as much to the downfall of the Republic as Palpatine's machinations.

 

Did he deliberately choose a lie that would ensure Luke's hatred of Vader - or did he choose a lie that allowed Luke to see Vader as everyone else in the galaxy at that point in time did?

But what was the point of doing that? Why bring Vader into the picture at all? Was Obi-Wan training Luke to be a Jedi solely so he could kill Vader, or because he thought Luke needed to be trained? If he's training him as a Jedi for the sole purpose of killing his father, I don't think much of Obi-Wan.

My problem with portraying Obi-Wan as a callous liar is I believe he always did what he thought was right - that he acted according the Code that he had been steeped in all of his life. "I serve" - and in his view, and probably that of Yoda and the rest of the Order, the personal happiness of one young man paled in comparison to the need to rid the galaxy of the evil of Palpatine and Vader.

I definitely agree with you there. And I don't think Obi-Wan is a "callous liar" per se. I do think he may be doing something wrong purposely with the idea that the "end justifies the means"...which, IMHO, is what his Padawan will do in Episode III and end up turning Sith because of it. (That is not a spoiler-ific theory...I stopped paying attention to spoilers a long time ago.)

And as far as the Code...he was way too steeped in it, which is why he never understood Anakin, who had been raised differently...but I don't think that was his fault either, and he did the best he could training Anakin. I've never blamed him for Anakin's fall...I blame the Code and the flaws of the Order itself.

Because of the nature of the Jedi Order, Obi-Wan obviously had no idea how powerful the ties of blood were, how the depth of his old Padawan's love for his wife and children would allow him to return to the light.

Exactly.

And I also agree that Lucas is showing the old Jedi Order as flawed, which is one reason it irritates the crap out of me whenever I see posts on the Movie Forums that indicate "There was nothing wrong with the Jedi, there was only something wrong with Anakin."

 

*waking up* I have more honest input re: Anakin et all when I do, but justa breif interruption (which I'm good at it seems! )

Opal, you haven't offened anyone here by along chalk! We are by nature a passionate type of people and this discussion has the potential to 'drift off' in a bad direction that I wanted to make sure that it stayed true...

Alright, on that track, let's bring Padme into the mix now....

 

Padme is one of those characters that we all tend to overlook as a complicated character.

We tend to take for granted that she loves Anakin, and that everything is just perfect between them until Palpy rears his ugly head and draws Anakin to the dark side. People typically portray her as perfect, or close to perfection. She's not. Padme is a complicated character, that most of us reduce to a simple pattern.

Frankly, their love is not the perfect thing we sometimes think it is. True love never is perfect. There must be conflicts and problems between them in order to make their relationship human and believable. And not all of these conflicts and problems should come from Anakin - again, we need to have imperfect Padme in the relationship.

Also, she always seems to be defined in relation to Anakin. We never do get around to exploring her when it comes to other things besides Anakin, now do we? She put in the role of "Mrs. Skywalker" all too often. She is used to love and comfort Anakin, and pretty much serves to contrast him.

Note: I haven't slept in about 30 hours, so what I just wrote probably won't make any sense. My apologies in advance to whoever is unfortunate enough to have read that.


~ats~

 

Padme is one of those characters that we all tend to overlook as a complicated character.

Too true. It's often easy to pidgeon-hole her as simply a "senator" or a "queen" - concerned with the galaxy's politics and not much else. I don't see her that way at all and really enjoy the few fics that give her additional interests and strong family ties.

I agree that all the problems in their relationship should not be Anakin's issues.

 

Well, I'm not done with Obi-Wan yet!

But what was the point of doing that? Why bring Vader into the picture at all? Was Obi-Wan training Luke to be a Jedi solely so he could kill Vader, or because he thought Luke needed to be trained? If he's training him as a Jedi for the sole purpose of killing his father, I don't think much of Obi-Wan.

I don't there would be any way to answer Luke's question without bringing Vader into the picture. How would you answer the question without either outright lying or telling him the whole truth? Any way Obi-Wan handles the question is wrong. Either he tells Luke the truth - "Your father isn't dead, he's Darth Vader" - and sends him running off to find Vader, which would result either in Luke being killed or turning to the Dark Side, or he lies. So he hedged, and hoped that by the time Luke discovered the truth about Vader, he would be more prepared for the knowledge. I think he probably thought that either he or Yoda would be the one to reveal the secret - he didn't anticipate Vader being the one to tell him.

I've never blamed him for Anakin's fall...I blame the Code and the flaws of the Order itself.

I think Anakin has to shoulder that burden himself - he made his own choices. But the Code's and the Order's flaws certainly did not help.

Now, onto Padme.

Also, she always seems to be defined in relation to Anakin. We never do get around to exploring her when it comes to other things besides Anakin, now do we? She put in the role of "Mrs. Skywalker" all too often. She is used to love and comfort Anakin, and pretty much serves to contrast him.

I think part of that stems from there being no mention of her in the OT, except for Luke and Leia's one conversation on Endor.

Padme seems to be portrayed sometimes as "Anakin's weakness." I think it's reversed - Anakin is HER weakness. She allows him to affect her and her behavior the way no one else does. Their relationship is far from perfect - Anakin especially has no frame of reference for whata healthy relationship between two adults looks like. He was raised by a single mom, then was taken into a fold where such relationships were forbidden.

 

MissPadme staggers into the conversation...

In general, the Sainted Obi vs. Evil Anakin issue goes back to the birth of fandom. I've read old SW fan fic where Han is always written in an idealized way by his fans and Luke is written in an idealized way by his fans. Fans idealize the characters they like. Unfortunately, many fan writers feel they have to knock another guy down to prop their guy up. Some Han writers frequently made Luke out to be a ninny while some Luke writers made Han out to be a jerk. So, I'm not surprised to see some Obi fans prop their guy up to be a saint while portraying Anakin in a shallow and entirely negative light. Or that some Anakin fans portray Obi as the eternal wet blanket, poking his nosy nose into Anakin and Padmé's bed, and driving poor Ani into Palpie's arms. It's about competition to these authors and in a fan's story, her guy always wins.

I'm definitely an Anakin fan, but I love Obi-Wan. I feel empathy for the both of them. I grew up with a crush on Han Solo but I never gave Luke short-shrift. I don't have those problems .

But, to put on my Simon Cowell hat, a lot of the time when you see bad characterizations it's because the writer is 1) immature and incapable of understanding/appreciating complexities in a character 2) an inexperienced author and/or 3) just plain lousy.

Now for Padmé. I agree she is a very complex character and one not explored as much (ditto for Leia, by the way). Also, she always seems to be defined in relation to Anakin. We never do get around to exploring her when it comes to other things besides Anakin, now do we? She put in the role of "Mrs. Skywalker" all too often. She is used to love and comfort Anakin, and pretty much serves to contrast him. As someone who has written A/P quite a bit, I have to agree. Actually I thought about this recently and (plugola time) I'm planning a new series about Padmé pre-AOTC, so I would be able to explore/explain her character separate and apart from her relationship with Anakin. For the most part anyway. I will have to explain ultimately why she would risk it all for a secret marriage with a Jedi, something that's not "her."

I agree with DarthLothi, Anakin is Padmé's greatest weakness. Hey, not that I can't see why . Part of it is out of her general compassion for others and for Anakin in particular. Part of it is well, he awakens within her a passion for something besides duty and politics.

--MissPadme

 

I would consider Padme a horribly annoying Mary Sue character if Anakin weren't in the picture. As I see it now, it's about time the woman fell in love with something besides her political office--and I will be horribly disappointed in Episode III if she pulls a stunt like "Anakin, I love you, but I just can't support your going against my political ideals." And if she starts the Rebellion, I will be tempted to walk out of the theater and ask for my money back. I mean, gag. That would be like my leaving my husband if we had different views on education, or on learning foreign language. A woman overly attached to her career is just as pathetic as a woman overly attached to a man. I like balance.

I don't there would be any way to answer Luke's question without bringing Vader into the picture.

The question was "How did my father die?" Someone mentioned this already...Obi-Wan could have said, "He was killed in the Clone Wars" and left it at that. I don't really see the need to say "Darth Vader killed him," automatically making Luke pissed at Vader. I don't necessarily think Obi-Wan had to tell Luke the whole truth, I just don't think the lie he told was appropriate.

 

---

I will have to explain ultimately why she would risk it all for a secret marriage with a Jedi, something that's not "her." [hr][/blockquote]

That brings up another point about Padme's character - why exactly does she love him? We know why he loves her. She's beautiful, for starters. She's also smart, a brilliant politician, an influential speaker, and a compassionate person.

But what does she see in Anakin? Sure, he's good looking. But in her position, Padme could easily find other attractive men with good personalities who would certainly not risk her carrier. So obviously, Padme isn't just a sucker for good looking guys.

Therefore it has to be something deeper in her love for him. He is kind, and self-sacrificing, but if you pay attention throughout the movies, anytime Anakin has been excessively kind and sacrifices himself to serve others has been when Padme is involved in the situation.

So, ultimately, the question is this: is Padme in love with Anakin, or is she in love with his love for her?


[hl=#003000][color=#70FF70][b]~ats~[/b][/color][/hl]

 

She's in love with Anakin.

I can find plenty to love about him...and I'm far too old to fall in love with a guy just for his looks, either.

Anakin is fun, he's sweet, he's interesting, he has a great capacity for caring about people, he makes Padme laugh...I think this is what she loves about him. He makes her forget the seriousness of her political life and just allows her to be herself when she's with him.

 

Obi-Wan could have said, "He was killed in the Clone Wars" and left it at that.

It's still a lie. So it was necessary for Obi-Wan to lie to Luke about his father, just that it was unacceptable to lie about Vader?

As I see it now, it's about time the woman fell in love with something besides her political office--and I will be horribly disappointed in Episode III if she pulls a stunt like "Anakin, I love you, but I just can't support your going against my political ideals." And if she starts the Rebellion, I will be tempted to walk out of the theater and ask for my money back. I mean, gag. That would be like my leaving my husband if we had different views on education, or on learning foreign language. A woman overly attached to her career is just as pathetic as a woman overly attached to a man. I like balance.

And I would be incredibly disappointed if Padme did give up her principles for Anakin. Disagreeing about politics and education is one thing - what Anakin and Padme disagree on is the difference between democracy and dictatorship. Those two systems can never be reconciled. That doesn't mean that Padme would give up on Anakin - I think she will be trying right up until the very end to bring him back.

 

Padmé is most certainly in love with Anakin; she has to be if she's willing to go to this extent to be with him. Look at her...she could find someone far easier to love just by walking out to get the mail.

Disagreeing about politics and education is one thing - what Anakin and Padme disagree on is the difference between democracy and dictatorship. Those two systems can never be reconciled. That doesn't mean that Padme would give up on Anakin - I think she will be trying right up until the very end to bring him back.

What he said . Conversely, I'm sure if Anakin realized he could lose Padmé through "irreconcilable differences," he would do anything to win her back.

--MissPadme