Lit The Essential Atlas and Galactic Cartography: Official Discussion

Since it's a blizzard and I'm stuck inside, another Atlas road not taken that I've never quite managed to let go of:

I wanted the positions of star systems to change over time, reflecting galactic rotation. So Tatooine would wind up whizzing around the Outer Rim and be in entirely different positions as you tracked it between different eras and their maps. I never dug into the science enough to figure out what that would realistically mean, because someone -- probably Dan, who was always much smarter than me about practical stuff -- pointed out that it would make the book basically unreadable, forcing people to find familiar planets over and over again. A model for the Essential Atlas was the historical atlases of Colin McEvedy, but McEvedy's recurring maps work in illustrating the ebb and flow of history because you don't have to keep finding, say, Constantinople each time. Even if the idea was supported by science (and I have no idea if it would have been), it would not have worked as the book.

So I was talked out of it early, and thank goodness. There is a remnant of the idea in the fact that trade routes appear and disappear and shift over the Atlas maps, which is less of an issue for readers. I'm glad common sense prevailed, but now and then I still think, "Dang it that would have been cool."

 

Oh well, thanks for the info, anyway, and I guess I'll leave further analysis to the our dependable friends on here...
As I said, I tentatively placed the Divis arm as including Ambria, Yaga Minor and Klatooine, with the Etarue Arm maybe comprising Dorin, Kashyyyk and Virgillia, and South Arm as having Ansion, Boz Pity, Utapau and Skye. Nothing more than educated guess, mostly. Though I do recall a colour coded map of the spiral arms proposed, several years back on the forum?

 

Galaxies rotate fast, but not that fast. And most stars systems of note are a long way apart (Geonosis and Tatooine being the main exception), so any shift over a few thousand years will be fairly small on a galactic scale.

 

Interesting! I'm glad I didn't know that because I probably would have campaigned for it then. I torture Wookieepedia enough without having forced them to have a huge debate over "which year do we use for defining grid coordinates."

 

For a rough idea of scale - it takes our sun roughly 250 million years or so to complete one orbit of the galaxy - so in the 25000 year lifespan of the Old Republic, it'll complete roughly 1/10000 of one orbit. Imagine the map, with a circle on it where the orbit would be. Then think about how far 1/10000 of the circle will be. Barely noticeable.

 

That's it! If Atlas 2.0 ever becomes a reality I'm ooching systems' position ever so slightly between the "Origins of Galactic Civilization" map and the "After the First Order" map. And only people who read this thread will underttand it wasn't a mistake.
BTW, if anyone brings up "but you can see the galaxy rotating at the end of TESB," I'm muting them.
And if anyone tries for "that's not the galaxy at the end of TESB but some nebula," I'm blocking them.
Twitter terminology, but the point stands.

 

It does raise the question of "is the hyperspace barrier stationary"? If it's fixed, so to speak, with the galaxy itself moving, then stars very close to the barrier might enter or exit the barrier over thousands of years.

But if it's part of the galaxy itself, then it might be carried around as the galaxy rotates, so stars don't end up entering or leaving.

 

At least we still got planets changing their location and moving around like Zonama Sekot or the Corellian system jumping from the Rim to the Core with help from Centerpoint! Some true Celestial migrations so to speak

As for the hyperspace barrier, well, I think it is tied to the gravity wells and thus moves around the core too. Though I like the idea of at least some worlds entering or leaving it as some orbits may not be a perfect circle @Iron_lord !!!

Spacewise, natural rotation is not enough to be noticeable on maps much, but there always was some unnatural mystical element in the gffa at play. So what if the entire galaxy is one giant moving puzzle with different parts moving with slightly different speeds around the core? And depending on location, these parts overlap or lock and unlock different regions of space! ("Lock & Key" style mindspaces and other World between Worlds functions included perhaps?)

New Canons regions seem to look like an inuniverse lock anyway (the one R2 plugs into repeatedly in the movies turning it to unlock doors and systems).




Sorry for the Astromech Porn (Goldenrod can't get all the attention, brace for Silverrod!):





Galactic planetary billiard aside, the High Republic has interesting Atlas implications to discuss too:

I'll spoiler tag it just to be safe, though not much story spoilers and more map/hyperspacetravel related ones i guess...

Spoiler

1) Light of the Jedi: I do wonder how widespread the hyperspace lockdown is mapwise, we get planets mentioned and a radius for each BoSS and Chancellor issued lockdown. Sounded like the entire Rim is affected, at least both sides of the galaxy yet not yet the Core or inner regions. How thus can a circle shaped lockdown happen without touching those?

2) With the great Disaster so far quite unique and interesting as it develops, I do wonder what earlier incarnations of likewise disasters may have happened or shaped the galaxy in times past (Legends even?). Given the efforts to not have it possible to happen or happen ever again, the past is intriguing as to what equally big incidents may have occured before it evolved into a very secure BoSS system of hyperspace control and hyperlane, of which we know quite some thx to the Atlas detailing how they work.

3) Still a mystery but very intriguing, the Nihil ships unique drive system allowing very different kinds of hyperspace travel to what most of the galaxy i using. That technologies origin and implications and why it is not used beyond the High Republic or this group, aside maybe some upcoming references in Dr. Aphra maybe is intriguing.
Tied to this is the unique ability/mutation in someone that makes it possible in the first place. And thus the question, can/will more become like this person, or had there been more like this in the past? I mean, it comes close to Jedi's and Rakatan's ancient Force Astrogation without hypertech, though that is still different I guess in some ways.

Thoughts?

I probably am the only one who never thought it to be either galaxy or nebula when first seeing it decades ago. Up until people enlightened me I was of the camp: They jumped into a fast rotating wormhole!

It still is hard to let go of my wormhole. But the gffa hardly uses them. Heck we got spaceworms but no spacewormholes... not even spaceworms travelling through spacewormholes. It would have made so much sense!

Guess how glad I was when Ezra rode Purgills through Hyperspace! He ain't no Gorman Vandrayk, but he got close!

Edit PS: At least for a brief time, even WEG thought wormholes are cool and had Alderaan use their very own "escape form the palace" wormhole in 1st edition of Graveyard of Alderaan before streamlining gffa technology and space fantasy to a more common scifi level replacing it with an escape shuttle hangar in the 2nd edition! (. https://boards.theforce.net/threads...ifferences-catalogued.50054934/#post-56984283. )

 

A nova here, a blackhole there.

 

I just want to take a moment to note just how WEGy this map and artwork are. Maybe it's just that we don't see much black and white art anymore (ignoring the faint colors on the names), but looking at this, I feel like it would be right at home a few pages away from a Mike Vilardi cantina or an Allen Nunis planetscape.

 

I'm still astounded that "The Slice" - created by WEG to get around restrictions from LFL about detailing the SW galaxy - has become an integral part of the Disney canon galaxy.

 

While our beloved galaxy has plenty of empty spots to explore and fill, I was wondering about the satellite galaxies...

What about stories solely set within one of them? The same feel and style of typical SW stories, but with new cultures and planets and so on. New governments, new maps for the satellite galaxy, etc. and full freedom to craft those without any GFFA status quo to mind.

Would that be Star Wars enough for folks to buy and read it? Even if not touching the GFFA? It might feature aliens and people from the GFFA that stranded there or chose to exile or move themselves there. But otherwise no major connections to the main galaxy.

I am not talking Nagai/Tof or Vong/Silentium/Abominor galaxy here, which all would be interesting and might work, but another one that may be less connected to the GFFA. How does Forceuse look there? How did it reach or evolve there? Is humanity in that satellite galaxy too and how did it arrive or was it there before moving to the main galaxy? A lot of potential to play with!

One could even tie this new to be explored satellite galaxy to all GFFA eras, be it via an Outbound Flight type cruise, Darksiders fleeing there in the past, an invasion of a small region of the GFFA from that galaxies pov and how it got stopped. Maybe even keep the timeline setting a mystery and only have various vague hints to have fans guess when it might take place, if in past, future, concurrent to movies etc. working towards a big reveal of when it is set and why storywise.

Thoughts?

Legends: So far we explored the GFFA and a lot of hints to the Unknown Regions
Canon: We dive fully into the Unknown Regions as the GFFA still is explored and the Unknown become known Regions
Canon 2.0: Satellite Galaxy as the next "here be dragons" and "what mysteries of the past lie here to be rediscovered"?

One might even use abandoned ideas for the GFFA in the satellite which is smaller and may work different than the main galaxy (faster rotation and hence hyperlanes fluctuating like @jasonfry once intended?

Or a dwarf galaxy filled with tiny species that have never seen the "giants" of the GFFA? Giant species, living planets and crying Mountains that have never seen bipedal life and first contact will be... weird?

 

"Just" one galaxy is humongous, gargantuan, shoggothic, enormously, immensly big, we don't really need to move to other galaxies for stories.

 

Still been looking at your impressive map, though I do have a few observations...
For one, I have a copy of Lando's Luck by Justina Ireland, and get a pretty strong indication from it that Hynestia is way out toward the edge of Wild Space, probably in the Western Reaches near Terminus or Thakwaa, I suspect? Given the implied long haul journey to a commercial moon near Corellia, and then to Cantonica.
Also, I'd like some potential feedback on placing some other new systems on there, like Gwongdeen, Vardos and Atollon? Or other less documented recent ones.

 

Hynestia was placed in the Colonies by the map from the Traveller's Guide to Batuu. This is just reflecting the official placement.

 

The placement of those planets are sourced from the Guide to Batuu reference book:

 

Ah, I see. Well that's good to know, anyway - wasn't aware of that map, so I guess up to them.
And on second reading, the book says that princess Rinetta was taken on trips to Wild Space planets 'their ancestors had once traversed', and some not known to the rest of the galaxy, so that's much vaguer as to where Hynestia is, I guess. Livno III is likely one of those planets, though.
I also see many of the distances in the novella between worlds were not that major, including to Guagenia ('in the opposite to direction to Neral's Moon and Cantonica') after all, hence me being somewhat thrown off.

 

Jason just posted part of the first page of his and Dan's pitch for what became the Atlas. (and yes, that is me in the quotetweet!)

 

Have to say that I don't find that kind of things interesting. I want pictures of planets environment, animal life, people and culture. I actually prefer the Essential guide to planets and moons to the Atlas because of this

 

Interesting! For me I like both, though there's plenty of glimpses of all the things you mention in the Atlas thanks to Chris Trevas.

 

My hope has always been that in the canon ancient past they would sort of 'fix' the awkwardness of there being only the Republic for Jieffeffay's history and turn the other galaxies into rival or ally governments. They can even get really interesting and test the fan's 'loyalty' to the Republic by having these massive crusades with arguably better galactic governments who maybe should take over the galaxy we all know and love.

As far as why we haven't heard of these other galaxies/governments before, how often do people bring up the Principality of Antioch or the Edo Period of Japan in daily life in 2021 AD?

 

From this post forward I consider this topic the official preparation for the new canon Atlas 2.0 by @jasonfry and Dan Wallace. No matter if it takes years or weeks, we will not back down, we will compile, research and debate on to help birth another Essential Atlas 2.0. Not a tiny new map, not another great guidebook about maps here and there like we already had by our favourite authors plenty for new canon. A thick proper volume that will be a standard at LFL and Disney meetings like the Legends Essential Atlas has become judging by BTS vids where it was on the table!

We've been reactionary and debating products for a while now, enjoying new maps and all. Trusting new placements, appendices and maps will come. I call all fan-mappers in and back to the table! We had great ressources posted recently in this topic with which we can create great maps ourselves. Lets find out what unplaced material belongs where! Even if faninfluence on Disney isn't what it once was with many fans participating in the late Legends via articles and more, the art of the Retcon is not dead yet!

Arise now, arise, Mappers of the GFFA! Dire deeds awake: dark is it eastward in the Unknown Regions. Let space be scouted, horn be sounded! Forth to a new truly Essential Atlas 2.0!

Let's get to work!

Here is hoping, but before we venture into the satelites be it in the past or future, depending what era they might fit in best before ties were cut again, I now thought about the Republics other rival governments and at what eras they might have seemed the better alternative to the Republic.

The many Alsakan conflicts of course fall into that category but are rather innerpolitical. True rival governments would be the Hutts. During Pius Dea I am wondering how many preferred Hutt rule to Republic one! Or the Sith Kingdoms in the Rim whenever the Republic did not touch on it. I mean, there could be successful Sith domains without a war. The Sith in the hierarchy may be infighting, but the people may be unaffected if the Sith in question believe in personal honor and direct fight instead of sending slave armies. That'd limit the ascensions and infights to the Lords and have the population rather contempt if happy with the reign of said lords.

True good governments outside of the Republic are hardly large in size sadly but there could be some. Go to the early Republic eras and you got the Herglic Trade Empire and other larger alien domains before the Republic expansion and stories as to why or how they got annexxed or why worlds switched sides. It'd feel like the Chiss Ascendancy and its surrounding nations though from the recent Thrawn novel I think.

Another angle I did wonder about was, we usually get the unified Core vs. the chaotic Rim factions that only occasionally band together. Why not change that formula and have f.e. the opposite: Back when the Core was not unified by the Republic, when Corellia, Alderaan, Coruscant, Kuat, etc. clashed and traded but were all their own domains with their own colonies outside the Core (with slower hypertravel and different travel methods even, the hyperdrive a luxury and only for the rich and mighty or limited to military or government sanctioned trade). Back then, there could be huge Rim Empires and democracies far larger than the united Core would be. The Hutts, Herglic, Arkanians, etc. plenty (need a map even if fanmade of such ancient important cultures and their potential reach!!! Anybody willing to try or debate?). Would these governments try to enter the Core via invasion or trade? Would the Core risk trouble with them, or without knowing their true size and extent (kinda like the early Federation in Star Trek riling up the Klingons and Romulans being dwarfed by them still). Would the Core unite not yet politically but militarily with mutual defense pacts already before becoming a Republic? What Core Worlds did not play along and side with a Rim faction and paid the price later on... being either destroyed, wiped from history, or unimportant despite their former importance in the Core?

 

Not what I remember. We have some historical pics, pics on the species that are considered among the "old spacers" one and lots of pictures of planets from outer space.

 

True most of the images are star maps, character portraits, and historical events. But there's some of what you're looking for too.

Spoiler