The Halls of Arrakeen - The Official D U N E and Frank Herbert discussion thread

The best explanation for inconsistencies can be summed up in three letters: KJA.

-P!-

 

BUT....in the original 'Dune' novel, Irulan's mom was stated as having been dead on the year 10176. Now, since Paul was 15 in 10191, (and assuming my culculations are correct ) this would mean that Irulan's mom died on the year Paul was born, just as shown in 'House Corrino'. Regardless, Irulan as the first child would have to be born way before Paul was born.

Therefore, I see no reason to think KJA and Brian Herbert got Irulan's age wrong (though the whole 'Paul wasn't exactly born on Caladan' is problematic ), so again we're back to Irulan being almost 30 at the end of 'Dune' yet she isn't married yet. As I said, she should be already be married by that age.

Oh, and why couldn't Shaddam take another wife to have a son, hmmm?

 

Since a couple of years pass since the beginning of Dune until the end, Irulan is probably only about 12 years older than Paul, but that's splitting hairs, I guess.

 

Now, why hasn't she married yet? What is Shaddam waiting for? I mean, in feudal societies (from which Frank Herbert based Dune on, no?) the princesses would be married early, no? At the most, they should be married once they reach their twenties. A 30 year old princess would be an 'old maid' in that sort of society (even today in some societies, you'd be married by the time you're thirty, especially women). So why the heck isn't Irulan married yet? Shaddam could have secured House Corrino's future, ensure there's an heir, make alliance, that sort of thing.


Maybe Shaddam was afraid any husband of Irulan would stab him in the back and proclaim himself Emperor. Even Elizabeth I kept from getting married, to dangle herself as a prize, as a political tool. Also just to keep from getting some guy to boss her around.

Ok I finished Battle of Corrin.

I forgot who was Selim Wormrider. The one person the authors didn't repeat ad-nasuam the backstory of.

I found Erasmus interresting in that he finally felt some emotions, but he didn't carry it to an extreme, like "I love all humans now!" I wonder what will happen to him (the little sphere of him).

The Serena clone...it would have been interresting if she had Gilbertus baby or if she regained her memories (unless it was hinted at when she was cut down by the machines) but besides being used in the bridge of hrethgir she was very useless.

ok, wasn't Salusa Secundus suppose to be slagged? when I looked in the back at the lineage chart and see the "BG", I wonder if the "B" stand for "before" and I wonder what the "G" stand for. So I imagine that there will be another Dune book about so event "G" and Salusa Secundus getting slagged and Vor is in the book too.

The riff between Abulurd and Vor. Meh. I guess it's suppose to be ironic that a Harkonnen worried about innocent lives and an Atreides didn't, but the riff was so stupid. I also wished Rayna died, she annoyed me. I was surprised Faykan didn't marry Rayna.

Raquella becomes the Reverand Mother. Kind of heavy handed. Though I wonder if she took the water of life or is it implied any poison could link Bene Gesserits to the other memory.

Not too bad, I hate the repetition (I could have made a drinking game out of how many times Yorek Thurr complains of not becoming the grand patriarch) most though.

 

Oh, and why couldn't Shaddam take another wife to have a son, hmmm?

Because Anirul (the first wife) used her Bene Gesserit "sexual bioweapon" talent (as Mohaim did to Baron Harkonnen) to render Shaddam sterile once she'd had all five of the daughters the Sisterhood told her to bear. A big mistake in retrospect, as it left Shaddam without a single care or regard for the universe after he died (since the family name would end with him) -- freeing him to royally screw with the BG's messiah project, as seen in Dune.

 

Since a couple of years pass since the beginning of Dune until the end, Irulan is probably only about 12 years older than Paul

Indeed. And since Paul would be around 17 or 18 at the end of 'Dune', Irulan would be close to 30, as I mentioned in my previous posts.

Maybe Shaddam was afraid any husband of Irulan would stab him in the back and proclaim himself Emperor

A legitimate reason, but what happens to the future of House Corrino? Seems to me that Shaddam should have made some sort of arrangement which could ensure his safety and the future of his House. I can't believe he would simply let himself die without leaving an heir behind.

And certainly I can't believe he would simply let his daughter become an old maid (as I mentioned, a woman aged 30 would be an old maid in feudal society) without arranging a strategic marriage. Perhaps with a weak House who won't have the means nor the ambition to stab him in the back.

Hell, he could have arranged for Irulan to marry Duke Leto (Leto ain't so old, and young maidens marrying old noblemen isn't all that uncommon in feudal societies), then the son for that union is designated heir for House Corrino. The heir for House Atreides would of course be Paul. A much better scenario than Shaddam's ill-fated alliance with the Harkonnens.

Moving on to another Irulan-related question:

Did Irulan die a virgin? She threatened to cuckhold (love this word! ) Paul in 'Dune Messiah', but did she carry out this threat? After Paul died, did she take any lovers or was she simply content to be babysitters for Paul's twin brats, Leto II and Ghanima?

 

I knew Irulan was older that Paul, but that much?

 

I knew Irulan was older that Paul, but that much?

I never really realized it too until I started nitpicking the Dune novel. I think the main reason I didn't realize is that the two adaptations of Dune (the 80s movie and the mini-series) both cast young women (or relatively young) as Irulan.

Heh, it'd be interesting if a future Dune movie would cast Irulan as someone older than Paul. However, in my mind I still have this picture of Irulan as being young. Weird...

 

Me, too, in fact for some reason Ive always pictured Irulan as a young woman around the same age as Paul in the novels, even before the films.

 

Well, I think Shaddam made a pact with the Bene Gesserits to have a daughter become Empress, if I remember right.

In the book, it seems Leto knew Jessica was Harkonnen-or at least knew where she came from, and wouldn't tell her. I wonder why he allowed her to live with him, then? Love?

 

It's been a long time since I read the books, but I don't remember Leto knew it in the beggining.

 

Who is older, I forget, Wenisca or Irulan?

 

It's been a long time since I read the books, but I don't remember Leto knew it in the beggining.

Me neither, but obviously Paul knew. I can ask a friend of mine, though, since he's currently reading the book for the first time.

 

Me, too, in fact for some reason Ive always pictured Irulan as a young woman around the same age as Paul in the novels

I actually thought Irulan would be a few years (two or three years) younger than Paul

In the book, it seems Leto knew Jessica was Harkonnen-or at least knew where she came from

Nope, Leto didn't know about Jessica's origins. In the book, he had always wondered about where Jessica came from. No one knew until Paul had some sort of vision (induced by the spice on Arrakis) telling him that he has Harkonnen blood.

Well, I think Shaddam made a pact with the Bene Gesserits to have a daughter become Empress, if I remember right

Empress or not, Irulan would need a consort to ensure the continuation of House Corrino. Again, I'm having a difficult time imagining Shaddam simply letting Irulan be unmarried. He should have been arranging something. Even the Baron Harkonnen recognized a need for an heir, so he promptly designated pretty boy Feyd, his nephew, as heir. Did Shaddam have any other relatives he could rely on?

And the whole Empress thing, I think it was solely a Bene Gesserit scheme, they didn't have Shaddam's cooperation. Then again, I only browsed through the prequels, so I don't know much on that. Hell, how reliable are the prequels eh, what with Paul being born on Kaitan rather than Caladan, etc.



Who is older, I forget, Wenisca or Irulan?

In the books, Irulan was the eldest.

 

Yes, it was Irulan.

 

Yet in the CoD miniseries Wenisica (or, more specificall, Susan Sarandon) is a good twenty five years older than Irulan.

 

Yet in the CoD miniseries Wenisica (or, more specificall, Susan Sarandon) is a good twenty five years older than Irulan

Yeah, weird casting for that one. Perhaps Irulan's Bene Gesserit training slowed down her aging (though this argument is worthless considering Lady Jessica aged a lot in CoD ). However, I do feel that Sarandon was worth the price of her role, unlike William "Duke Sleepo" Hurt in the first mini-series (his role was largely an extended cameo and his performance was even more crappy than the Czech extras!).

Hmmm, on the subject of the miniseries, I've been meaning to do this for some time: my own comparison of Dune the 80s movie and the miniseries. I'm gonna compare the performances for each House and for the Fremen in the two adaptations, though I won't do all at one post.

Today, I'll start with House Atreides:

Duke Leto: Jürgen Prochnow vs William Hurt

I'll start with the easy one. I really hate Hurt's performance, so I'm giving the movie an easy win. Prochnow didn't give an Oscar-winning performance or anything like that, but at least he looked interested in working on this movie, he looked like he was awake, he had emotion, dammit! Hurt looked like he was drugged and then forced to speak out his line.

Lady Jessica: Francesca Annis vs Saskia Reeves

This one is a tie. I'm not impressed with either actress, neither one were attractive (which could have tipped the scales ) and both performed awfully in their respective 'Water of Life' scenes. So, a tie.

Paul/Muadib: Kyle MacLachlan vs Alec Newman

A difficult choice. You see, I love Newman's performance for CoD, he was awesome as the adult Paul. BUT...his teenage Paul was awful, and I'm not talking about the whining. I don't mind whining, it's just that Newman is never convincing as teenager (whether physically or mannerisms). Thus, reluctantly, I give this one to MacLachlan from the movie. Plus, Maclachlan showed some charisma in the otherwise amusing 'LONG LIVE THE FIGHTERS!' speech, whereas Newman sounded lame.

Thufir Hawat: Freddie Jones vs Jan Vlasák

The movie Thufir looked like he was about to drop dead and he was shaking as if he had Parkinson's disease! Not to mention he has to suffer the indignity of milking a cat. The mini-series Thufir looked like an incompetent bufoon who had a rather lame death scene ('Bastaaaards!'). God, I hate them both! So, a tie once more.

Gurney Halleck: Patrick Stewart vs P.H. Moriarty

Stewart's performance was awful in the movie. Just awful. Did he have too much coffee or something, he kept screaming in virtually every scene. The mini-series Gurney, on the other hand, gave a decent (not great, but decent) performance. The mini-series gets the victory for this one!

Duncan Idaho: Richard Jordan vs James Watson

Jordan looked like a Republican senator from the Bible-belt states (actually, he played the National Security Adviser in 'Hunt for Red October'), not suitable at all to play a warrior like Idaho IMHO. On the other hand, I could understand what Jordan was saying. By contrast, Watson in the miniseries looked good as Duncan, but his Scottish accent is so thick, I barely understand him! Tough decision...I'm gonna give it to the miniseries, reluctantly.

Dr. Wellington Yueh: Dean Stockwell vs Robert Russell

Hmmm...I have to give this to the mini-series. Despite my annoyance with Yueh's costume (it ain't so bad actually, compared to Irulan's butterfly dress!), the actor gave a good performance. Stockwell wasn't so bad either, but the miniseries wins by a small margin.

Alia: Alicia Witt vs Laura Burton

You know, no matter who wins this one, both little kids performed superbly, sometimes better than the adults. Or perhaps I have a soft spot for murderous kiddies who kill their grandpa Anyway, both were cool, but the movie Alia is slightly more creepy than the miniseries.

So, three wins for the movie, three wins for the miniseries and the rest are ties! Well, looks like overall it's a tie when it comes to House Atreides. I might do House Harko

 

Alicia Witt played Alia in the movie ? Really ?

 

No, Irulan did not die a virgin.
Chani mentions in "Dune Messiah" to Irulan that her attempts to bear a child were always flawed.


~ James

 

No, Irulan did not die a virgin.
Chani mentions in "Dune Messiah" to Irulan that her attempts to bear a child were always flawed

I thought the "flawed" thing meant she didn't manage to seduce Paul. Ya know, considering Irulan's age, she's close to 40 during 'Dune Messiah'. I wonder if this contributed to her near hysterical pleas to Paul for a child, since she's approaching past her child-bearing age or something. Poor Irulan, always liked her, all those excerpts at the beginning of the chapters showed that she had an objective view of Muadib in her writings. Considering her bitter feelings, she could have written nasty stuff, but she didn't, she was very objective. I respect her for that.

I do hope she didn't die a virgin and found a good lover (or two! ).

Continuing my comparison of the 80s movie and the miniseries.

Today, we have House Harkonnen:

Baron Vladimir: Kenneth McMillan vs Ian McNeice

Oh, this is easy. Ian McNeice from the miniseries wins faster than you can say "Let the Emperor mock House Harkonnen, and call us swine! Because in the end, his throne will be mine!" The movie Baron was too much, what with the skin disease and all. Bah!

Feyd: Sting vs Matt Keeslar

God help me, both of them are bad. I laugh everytime Sting appears on screen. As for Kesslar, it's hard to take him seriously when he's wearing a plastic (or is it paper?) triangle on his back. I hate them both, it's a tie.

Count Rabban: Paul L. Smith vs László I. Kish

Ya know, these two look almost the same.The only major difference is that they have different accents. Having said that, I'm gonna give this to the miniseries, 'cos Rabban in that one had a much cooler death! Also, the movie Rabban's eating habits (drinking insect juice! What is this, 'Fear factor'???) annoyed me.

Piter De Vries: Brad Dourif vs Jan Unger

I can barely understand the Piter in the miniseries, is he one of the Czechs? Certainly I doubt if he understands English. Brad "Wormtoungue" Dourif though...not his best performance (that one is in another adaptation of a book ), but it's better than the miniseries. I do hate that scene with the funny little mantra ("It is by the juice of blah blah...") but I'm giving the win to the movie Piter.

Captain Nefud: Jack Nance vs ...

Nefud wasn't in the miniseries (I don't remember seeing him, and he's not listed in imdb.com) so this is sort of an automatic win for the movie. Though Nance didn't really perform all that much (but he was better than some of the others like Thufir!).

So, two for the movie, two for the miniseries, one tie. If we were to discount the automatic win for Nefud, the miniseries has a slight edge. I think I will discount Nefud and give the overall Harkonnen win to the miniseries. Performance-wise, the miniseries deserves it.

Tommorrow, House Corrino and allies (including the Reverend Mother and the Guild!).

 

The original book, Dune, was actually the first two-thirds of a projected trilogy that Frank Herbert had serialized in two parts in Analog. It had a natural break-point about midway through that would have been fine as a resolution/jumping-off place at the end of the first movie.

If they wanted to do the whole book, they should have done what Richard Lester did with The Three Musketeers -- do the first part as a movie, and then use the proceeds to finish the SECOND movie.

They also massively mis-cast the two lead roles; Kyle MacLachlan would have been excellent as Feyd-Rautha, and "Sting" as Paul Atreides, since Paul had to have the aura of a driven, mystically insane, slightly-inhuman religious mountebank, and Feyd needed to be more of a spoiled, petulant sensualist/killer.

"It is Caffeine alone that sets my mind in motion.

It is through beans of java that my thoughts acquire speed,

The hands acquire shakes,

The shakes become a warning,

I... am... in... CONTROL of my addiction!

...it is Caffeine alone that sets my mind in motion..."

Note that Dourif, a brilliant and topflight actor, mis-pronounces it as "saphoo"....and Lynch didn't make him re-shoot it. And it's sure not the way Herbert pronounced it.

And don't *even* get me started on Ferrer and his "beany jessurit...."

 

when I looked in the back at the lineage chart and see the "BG", I wonder if the "B" stand for "before" and I wonder what the "G" stand for.

From a post above, with regards to "Battle of Corrin".

The "G" stands for "Guild". So the timeline was in relation to the formation of the Spacing Guild...

 

They also massively mis-cast the two lead roles; Kyle MacLachlan would have been excellent as Feyd-Rautha, and "Sting" as Paul Atreides, since Paul had to have the aura of a driven, mystically insane, slightly-inhuman religious mountebank, and Feyd needed to be more of a spoiled, petulant sensualist/killer

I think Sting should just stay away from acting, from what I saw he was crap (but his songs are cool ). MacLachlan as Feyd could work, but I thought he was a decent teen Paul.

"It is Caffeine alone that sets my mind in motion.
It is through beans of java that my thoughts acquire speed,
The hands acquire shakes,
The shakes become a warning

LMAO! I'm gonna recite that the next time I drink coffee

If they wanted to do the whole book, they should have done what Richard Lester did with The Three Musketeers -- do the first part as a movie, and then use the proceeds to finish the SECOND movie

Or they could shoot it all at once! *gasp* I'm sure no one has done that before...oh wait Seriously though, a two-part 'Dune' would be cool, might be even better than the three part miniseries.

Anyway, moving on with my comparisons of the 80s movie and the miniseries.

Today is House Corrino and allies:

Emperor Shaddam IV: José Ferrer vs Giancarlo Giannini

The miniseries win for this one. I've always liked Giannini, and even though the miniseries ain't his best performance, he's still one of the best actors in the miniseries (though perhaps that isn't saying much). The movie Shaddam seriously needs a backbone, he keeps being bullied by the bloody Guild!

Princess Irulan: Virginia Madsen vs Julie Cox

Julie Cox wins this one, easily. She's probably the only one in the miniseries who seems comfortable with everything, she gave a consistent performance (for both miniseries!) and her narration was very nice. Madsen....she just wasn't memorable IMO. Not bad, but Cox has the edge. A pity Cox had to wear the butterfly costume, but the fact that she still retained her dignity in such a ridiculous outfit made me respect her even more.

Count Fenring: ... vs Miroslav Táborský

Well, automatic win for the miniseries since there's no Fenring in the movie. Fenring was actually performed rather well in the miniseries, though the accent was slightly annoying.

Reverend Mother Mohiam : Siân Phillips vs Zuzana Geislerová

I hate the Reverend Mother in the miniseries! The worst of the Czech actors, and to add insult to the injury, she has those stupid hats! And she gave an equally crappy performance in CoD, she was one of the few things that prevented the first part of CoD from being completely perfect! Thus, an almost automatic win for the movie!

Guild Navigator: Puppet thingy vs CGI

I hate both designs, but the movie one was sort of cool in a disgusting way (much like the original Jabba in ROTJ). However, I don't think it's cool enough for a movie win, so I'm giving this one a tie.

Guild representatives

I'm going to have to go with the movie for this one. The miniseries Guild Reps wore those stupid "Coneheads' hats and did some freaky tai-chi moves when they were talking. The movie Guild Reps were weird as well, but they were weird in a good way. Plus, they had that one cool line: "Or you will live out your life in a pain amplifier!"

So, one tie, two wins for the movie and three wins for the miniseries! Ah, not unexpected since I've always considered House Corrino to be the one that gave the most enjoyable performance in the miniseries.

Tomorrow, the last part: comparisons for the Fremen!

 

The last part, comparisons for the Fremen:

Dr. Kynes/Liet: Max von Sydow vs Karel Dobry

You know, I hate Max von Sydow. I hated him in 'The Greatest Story Ever Told', I hated him in 'Conan the Barbarian', I hated him in 'Druids' (also gets my vote as one of the worst movies ever!) and I definitely hate him as Dr Kynes in the 80s movie. For the life of me, I don't know why people keep employing this guy, he's just a crappy actor IMO. Oh well, an almost automatic win for the miniseries because I HATE MAX VON SYDOW!!!

Stilgar: Everett McGill vs Uwe Ochsenknecht

I wasn't impressed with either one, but the movie Stilgar looked more like a desert native. The miniseries Stilgar looked more like Homer Simpson, I almost expect him to shout "Doh!" when Jessica grabbed him. So, the movie wins, but truth be told, neither one impressed me.

Chani: Sean Young vs Barbora Kodetová

Kodetova was awesome in CoD, but in the first miniseries, her English was awful and her acting wasn't so good (to put it mildly). Young wasn't exactly impressive herself, but she had better English, so I'm giving the win here to the movie.

Reverend Mother Romallo: Silvana Mangano vs Drahomira Fialkova

Garghhh! The miniseries Romallo was awful, another one of those actors that I can't understand. So, an easy win for the movie.

Otheym: Honorato Magalone vs Jakob Schwarz

The movie Otheym was an idiot, nothing memorable about him at all. By contrast, the miniseries Otheym was damn cool, the guy gets all the important tasks and gave a memorable performance. Definitely a win for the miniseries.

Shadout Mapes: Linda Hunt vs Jaroslava Siktancova

The one in the miniseries is just another of those actors who can barely say her lines and probably didn't understand English. Hunt's Shadout Mapes in the movie wins easily.

So lets see...two for the miniseries, four for the movie. A clear win for the movie when it comes to the Fremen. Heh, it really shouldn't be a surprise, considering most of the Fremen roles in the miniseries were played by the Czechs.

 

I have to ask, how bad is your hearing if you're having such problems with the accents?

Is it that english is a second language to you? I know you're from Malaysia, (At least living there now.) so that may be it.

Because honestly, I did not have any problem understanding anybody in the mini series.

-P!-