Games The Jedi Draft: Reborn

just curious why you think the setting is advantageous to you? Not saying it is or isn't, but really want to hear that argument!

 

Holy **** what a playoff round

 

Setting-wise the Freezing Chamber is somewhat similar to the Sith Temple on Malachor where Kanan fought Maul -- long drops from a relatively enclosed setting. I would say the similarity provides much of an advantage, but relatively familiarity can't hurt.

Also, @DarthIntegral is Kanan blind in this fight? Because IIRC his peak as a Jedi occurred after he was blinded (haven't seen Rebels, so I can't confirm that)

 

He is definitely peak after being blinded. The first thing he does is dispatch Maul. But like Rahm Kota, it definitely doesn’t give him a disadvantage. Kanan is awesome, I’d highly, highly recommend Rebels.

 

I would actually think you want Kanan blind if you have Kanan on your team because of the way being deprived that sense drives his force connection to another level

 

Since I was tagged I feel I have a right to say something The Windu v Talzin claim is just straight up not true.

 

Darth Nyriss vs. Cere Junda

Nyriss doesn't have much in dueling feats, but she has one impressive one -- absolutely dominating a duo of Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge. Now, Scourge was nowhere near his prime and Surik was slightly hindered in the duel, but it is still an impressive feat.

Junda's best feat was fighting 9 ABY Vader in a vicious fight in which she lost. I just watched the fight (I haven't even got started on Jedi: Surviver yet, so watching the fights on YouTube will have to suffice). Here's what I saw.

• Junda's basically getting beaten by Vader for basically the entire fight before she collapses a flaming bookshelf on him -- severely injuring him.
• After a few lightsaber strikes she force-pushes him into a wall.
• She then tries to jump at Vader and gets stabbed and dies.

Impressive for sure, but there are quite a few other Jedi who give Vader solid fights before dying -- I even have one on my team in An'ya Kuro (who fought a Vader far closer to his prime while she was over a century old and solidly past her's). Also, we should keep in mind that Vader was nowhere near his prime at this point -- his prime was probably closer to ANH or ROTJ.

I think the fight's close, but I'd say that beating a Surik/Scourge duo is a slightly better feat than giving a pre-prime Vader a decent fight which ends up severely injuring him. I put Junda on Kuro's tier, and I think that Nyriss would edge out Kuro.

I'll throw an argument up for Cade tomorrow night.

 

Cere Junda vs. Darth Nyriss

I didn’t know about Nyriss before this draft, but beating the duo of Scourge and Surik is really impressive. But like you said, not in his prime and not up to her full strength.

Cere on the other hand put up a hell of a fight against peak Vader. Yes, Vader between the prequel and originals was the peak. This was his Jedi hunting era. Freshly suited, still young and where he showed his most powerful feats.
They built this era Vader up to look unbeatable. Nearly every single opponent who faced him fell to his blade or were tossed to the side like they were nothing.
Luke, Obi-Wan (TV show) and Ahsoka put up the best fights against Vader, but I would put Cere right behind them in fourth place. However there’s a major difference between their fights and Cere’s. When Luke beat Vader, he was far from his prime. Older, slower, and showing sympathy. And Kenobi and Ahsoka knew him as well. They knew his style, having trained with him for years. Whereas Cere went in pretty much blind, having only locked blades for a couple of seconds briefly years earlier, but not a duel. The version of Vader that she fought was young, ruthless, angry and extremely powerful. Yet she still somehow left him battered and bruised, barely walking away from their fight. I’ve only ever seen Kenobi accomplish something like that (Cere’s is cooler though cause she lit him on fire).

Sometimes losing to a top tier opponent is a better feat than beating other lower opponents. In this case, considering Scourge and Surik weren’t peak, I think Cere’s duel with Vader is the most impressive feat among her and Nyriss.

So how would these two do in a duel together? Both Cere and Nyriss can create strong Force barriers, so they’re in a deadlock there. Cere stopped Vader’s Force attacks just fine. And both have been shown capable of powerful Force attacks themselves. Cere tore down the environment around Vader, and could lift and flatten hordes of Stormtroopers. She also managed to bring Vader to his knees through the Force years before their duel. This is gonna be close.

To quote Count Dooku: “It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber.”
Both are skilled with a blade, but as I said before, Cere’s duel with Vader is more impressive than anything Nyriss has done. She lasted quite a while, constantly locking blades with him (a very long time if you include all the gameplay and not just cutscenes). If they can’t get past each other’s Force offence and defence, it’s gonna come down to a duel, and Cere will take that.
Another strength she has which was showcased in that duel is her acrobatic abilities. She was constantly able to dodge and weave her way around Vader and out of his reach.

It won’t be easy, but she can get it done.

Also let me leave these here:

 

Okay, time to argue the main fight: Cade Skywalker vs. Satele Shan

I'm going to be frank with all of you -- I thinks Satele is far overrated in this draft. Let's look at her fights:

• Loses to Apprentice Malgus
• Short inconclusive fight against pre-prime Darth Baras
• Hex Droids stuff
• Beats a fearless Darth Mekhis
• The Malgus fight on Alderaan -- again, against a decades pre-prime Malgus (we'll get back to that fight in a bit)
• Being on the Yavin IV Strike Team

The big problem with Satele is simple -- we've got absolutely no showings of her in her prime against a peak opponent. Her fights against Malgus were at the beginning of the Galactic War when she was a padawan and mid-way through the war when she was a knight. That Alderaan fight occurred in 3667 BBY -- a full thirteen years prior to the end of the Galactic War when Malgus fought Ven Zallow (who gives almost as good a fight to a closer-to-his-prime Malgus as Satele did) or Aryn Leneer. Now let's get back to the Alderaan fight. I've watched the fight a few times, and here's what I saw (1:47 fight):

• Satele dispatches a couple Sith fodder in the first ten seconds before Malgus and her ignite their lightsabers
• Then she dispatches some more fodder before finally engaging Malgus at the 28 second mark
• Malgus seems to be overpowering her in the duel and splits her double-bladed saber in half at the 55 second mark.
• He tries to stab her and she stops his lightsaber blade in her hands
• Jace Malcom comes and tackles Malgus and detonates his thermal detonator, injuring Malgus
• Satele force-blasts a wounded Malgus into rocks, then blasts the rocks apart. End of Fight scene.

And this is probably her prime -- a fight against a far pre-prime Malgus in which she is basically losing until Jace Malcom tackles Malgus American football style and detonates a thermal detonator which blasts both of them back and allows Satele to recover enough to use a force push to throw Malgus into rocks. I'd argue that Ven Zallow puts up a better fight against Malgus after accounting for both how close Malgus was to his prime and the length of the fight. And Zallow's nowhere near Cade as a combatant.

Regarding the double-bladed lightsaber, you do know that Cade's pretty close with Shado Vao -- who just so happens to also use a double-bladed lightsaber. I don't think the use of a double-bladed saber will be that much of a hinderance if any against Cade.

Now let's talk Cade:

• Kills a tons of Sith -- Sith mooks by the dozens, multiples of Krayt's elite Sith Troopers (who are basically slaughtering Jedi left and right) during Legacy War [who are literally enhanced to all hell and back to make them extremely powerful and far above the average Sith fodder that is fought by either Cade or Satele]
• Talon and Nihl multiple times -- almost always winning
• Multiple other named Sith
• Some assassins
• The two Krayt fights

Yes, KRayt beat the absolute crap out of him in their final fight, but Krayt is IMO first-round material and even then Cade killed him by exploiting Krayt's arrogance. On the other hand, Cade puts up a decent fight the first time around -- loses, but puts up a decent fight. And that fights before he gets more training and hits his prime in Legacy War.

Additionally, Cade's solidly the strongest Light Sider in Legacy. To show how impressive that is, let's go back to my previous argument for Cade against the Khais:

Satele also needs to account for Cade's ability of Dark Transfer -- if he gets a hand on her its game over.

My conclusion of this fight is quite simple: Cade's got better dueling feats, arguably more power in the force, and more unusual abilities than Satele is able to handle. Cade's winning this fight at least 7/10 times -- maybe if we had some dueling feats for Satele in her prime against say Deceived Malgus I might be willing to entertain her being victorious, but without those she just doesn't have enough.

 

Dear BioWare, please develop a cut scene of Satele fighting Vitiate.
Yours sincerely, Jordan.

Great argument, Sith. This fight is a tough one!

 

Any other arguments? If not, I'll plan to judge on Sunday, since there's not much else going on that day.

 

I think that Dooku wins by an extremely slight margin. 5.5/10

Mace's Vaapad would be mute, as Dooku was very cold and calm in his use of the dark side. Also, his Shatterpoint ability would have little to no effect due to Dooku's knowledge of it.

Physical

I think they are on par, especially if Mace relies on Vaapad, which he should because it is his best form and he would need his best against Dooku. However, Vaapad was an extremely taxing form of lightsaber combat, while Makashi was extremely energy efficient. If Mace were to fall back on one of the other forms I think Dooku would have even more of an advantage on him.

Force

Again, they are on par. Dooku has Force Lightning, powerful TK and Force Cloak (to hide his signature from Vaapad's dark-side channeling).

Mace has got pretty good TK as well. He's got shatterpoint, but again Dooku knows all about it.

Dueling

I say the slight egde goes to Dooku here. Mace's Vaapad, while fast and ferocious, would be nothing new to Dooku. However, neither would Dooku's Makashi. The main difference between the two is that Makashi is more precise and energy efficient, while Vaapad was taxing and broad. Dooku could has shown skill against unorthodox attacks as he would spar with Grevious constantly. I don't think anything Mace could muster would surprise him as much as one of Grevious' crazy strikes.

 

Mace Windu vs. Count Dooku

Dooku is incredibly underrated in this draft, criminally underrated. Name a better feat that anyone in the draft has that's better than defeating Anakin TRUMPED with Obi-Wan. Neither were at their prime, and there were some mitigating circumstances around fatigue, I get it - we can put an asterisk on that feat. But it's still a HELL of a feat. Then, after doing that, he takes Yoda to a draw. And, yes, I know - Yoda "could have" won if he didn't have to save Anakin and Obi's lives blah blah blah, so again I'll grant you a tiny little asterisk. But still, you stack those two battles together as one feat, and I'd argue there are maybe five characters with a better individual feat than that. Dooku has plenty of experience to pile on top of that. Some of the recent material finally showing his Jedi days certainly helps (and honestly boosts Yaddle's stock, too!). I'm not a Windu hater, but I think the Count is just a bad match for him.

Figure I'm going to get overruled here, but that's cool.

Saba Sebtyne vs. Kaan/Kas'im TRUMPED with Lord Scourge

I dunno about this one. It feels like a coin flip to me. Does it seem more likely that the higher skilled, more powerful Jedi can literally unleash beast mode, or that superior numbers will cause the win? I'm not confident that Saba can take out three before one of them takes her out, but I'm also not convinced she can't. So, I flipped a coin and it landed on tails.

Ulic Qel-Droma vs. Darth Bane

Feels like a tremendous battle of offense vs. defense, with Ulic needing to bide his time, absorb, and counter when ready - a rope a dope strategy, basically. But that requires nearly perfect defense, and I'm just not convinced it holds up against someone like Bane.


Cade Skywalker vs. Satele Shan

Arguments swayed me. I was heavily leaning Satele when we started, but honestly - she does lack verified feats, doesn't she? I think SithO did a great job of arguing up his guy and arguing down his opponent without being dismissive or hyperbolic - great threading of the needle. It almost comes down to the two Malgus fights vs. the two Krayt fights for what you value more, and given where their respective opponents were in their careers when they happened, I go Cade by a whisker.

Darth Nyriss vs. Cere Junda

Walked into this one about as close to fifty fifty as you can. Got great arguments on both sides. and found the "Vader fight is a great testament" argument to be slightly more appealing at the end of the day.


Ezra and Kanan vs. Kit Fisto and Aayla Secura

Another example of great arguments on both sides. But rewatching some of the Rebels stuff, which the arguments lead me to do, helped me really see what Ezra and Kanan bring to the table as a pair. Neither of them is going to shine as individuals, and they are a perfect example of the duo being much more than the sum of their parts. Kanan's death is a perfect example of the things he can do with the Force, while surrounded by those he loves. I'm not nearly as high on Rebels Maul as SithO is (the guy did get owned in about four seconds by Kenobi), but that's a feather in the cap for Kanan individually. Fisto is probably the best individual here, followed by Kanan, then Aayla, then there's a pretty big drop off to Ezra (at least until season 2 of Ahsoka drops). That drop off is pretty big. and while the connection between Ezra and Kanan is a much better connection than the one between Kit and Aayla, I don't think it's quite enough to overcome the gap in demonstrated skill and power between Aayla and Ezra.

 

I'll weigh in tomorrow. Gonna disagree on one for sure, but I really do need to ponder on that Mace/Dooks match for just a bit longer. It's a classic, no doubt.

 

Mace Windu vs. Count Dooku

Alright, this was extremely tough. They know each other extremely well, they're similarly skilled, similarly powerful, all that nonsense. Among the elite combatants in the draft, this really is about as close to a coin flip type of matchup as it gets. In terms of their feats, I do feel like Mace is more consistent, where Dooks does have lower lows... but also, very arguably, higher highs.

I just don't think there's a definitively wrong answer here. It could go either way on any given day. They're so familiar with each other, that Mace's style wouldn't throw Dooks the way it might other Sith, and I think that possibly gives him just the edge he needs. Ask me again tomorrow, and my vote may change, but today, I think I give Dooks maybe 5.5/10 matchups.

Saba Sebtyne vs. Kaan/Kas'im TRUMPED with Lord Scourge

She's good. Really good. But peak-Scourge and these two is just too much for her to handle. Whether Kaan settles in for Battle Meditation, or throws hands along with his teammates, she's just overwhelmed.

Ulic Qel-Droma vs. Darth Bane

Bane's just that notch above. Phenomenal match, but Bane is just too much.


Cade Skywalker vs. Satele Shan

Yep. Not a bad match by any stretch. But Cade has just demonstrated so much more. Outstanding fight, but substance over hype any day of the week for me.

Darth Nyriss vs. Cere Junda

Yep. What Inty said. Great fight, but the arg was pretty airtight.


Ezra and Kanan vs. Kit Fisto and Aayla Secura

I don't see this quite as close. Not a waxing, but not in doubt.

 

@cubman987

Looks like you're need on the Saba/trump matchup.

 

@cubman987 - I also forgot to tag you in the baseball draft thread, and if I edit it the tags won't work, so tagging you here instead.

 

Moving on ...

Semifinals

Next set of numbers is 1, 7, 8

Matches Taking Place at the Carbon Freezing Chamber on Bespin



@heels1785 (0) vs. @RX_Sith (3)

Kyp Durron vs. Darth Zannah
Kyle Katarn TRUMPED with Jaden Korr vs. Draco and Krieg TRUMPED with Exan Kun
Darth Vader vs. Darth Vitiate

@SithOverlord101 (1) vs. @Jordan1Kenobi (2)

Ben Solo TRUMPED with Ben Skywalker vs. Qui-Gon Jinn
Ben Skywalker (forfeit) vs. Shaak Ti
An'ya Kuro vs. Obi-Wan Kenobi TRUMPED with a Beer



Seems like a straightforward round?

Kyp wins
Katarn/Korr win
Vader beats Vitiate after a twelve-round war (I'd love to hear arguments on it, but it doesn't seem in doubt to me)

The Benjamins win
Shaak Ti doesn't lose
Kenobi wins and gets drunk

@cubman987 @Wang Chi

 

Straightforward for me as well, but with a couple disagreements.

I got Zannah over Kyp. In terms of power, it's an excellent matchup, but Kyp never had an elite showing against an opponent on the level of Zannah with his bladework. It just never happened (and, of course, likely never will now). I maintain to this day that his best "duel" was against a nowhere-near-peak, half-assed darksider Jaina in Dark Journey. And that really was nothing more than a glorified sparring session. A heated sparring session, but nothing more. The guy simply does not have ANY elite dueling feats. Zannah has plenty.

And make mine Imperial Knights and Kun in the other. Even if Kunstoppable's stock has taken a hit from the early days (and I'd say rightfully so), I still have him as the best overall combatant in this match. Kyle and Jaden are certainly the more cohesive duo, but I feel like no matter which way the matchups play out here (whether it's Knights v Kyle and Jaden v Kun, or Knights v Jaden and Kyle v Kun), I think that Jaden is the first one to fall here. And I really like Jaden, but...

So maybe Kyle and Kun engage in one hell of an epic duel, and then Jaden eventually falls to the Knights (maybe taking out Krieg in the process). And then Draco, engages against Kyle as well, which should be more than enough to tip the scales (I see him being completely on the ropes against Kun alone by that point).

Or the Knights take on Kyle. And that's a matchup I definitely see Kyle eventually winning... but not before Kun makes relatively quick work of Jaden. And at that point, even if one of Krieg or Draco is taken out, I don't see Kyle winning. Certainly not the majority, anyways.

 

Missed opportunity to have Ben & Ben vs. Ben…

 

Let's wrap this round up then ...

Semifinals

Final numbers are 5, 2, 4, 9

Matches Taking Place at the Carbon Freezing Chamber on Bespin



@heels1785 (2) vs. @RX_Sith (4)

Jaden Korr (Forfeit) vs. K'Krukh
Luke Skywalker vs. Revan
Meetra Suik vs. Exar Kun (forfeit)
General Grievous vs. Lord Scourge (forfeit)

@SithOverlord101 (2) vs. @Jordan1Kenobi (4)

Lord Nyax vs. Leia Organa Solo
Rey vs. Quinlan Vos TRUMPED with Asajj Ventress
Darth Plagueis vs. Yoda
Darth Sidious vs. Asajj Ventress (forfeit)

Looks academic to me on one side

Luke defeats Revan to push heels and Rx to teams


On the other side ... I'll take arguments, though they are admittedly uphill battles for SithO on the Rey/Trump and Plagueis/Yoda battles. If you still have your Kenobi in the Bank ...



@cubman987 @Wang Chi

 

I'm out of my Kenobi in the Bank arguments and honestly even if Plagueis somehow gets the win over Yoda, Rey's just too far below the Vos/Ventress duo (probably below both individually too) to win that fight. I'd give Jordan the win in a team battle due to my team's lack of depth, so just judge. I'll take my chances in the third place game.

GG Jordan. Really wish Plagueis had landed on Vos/Ventress and Sidious had landed on Yoda (or if I combined ReyLo instead of the Ben duo --ReyLo probably beats Shaak Ti and I'd definitely have argued Ben Skywalker over Jinn)