ST The Marvel Cinematic Universe’s impact on new Star Wars films

I don't think it's deceptive at all. It's very literal and straight forward. I'm not using trickery of language. Sheev's goal was to destroy the Jedi forever, by means of Order 66. Snoke's goal was to destroy the Jedi forever by killing Luke and effectively cementing Order 66. Luke's goal was to die and destroy the Jedi Order forever... Which would cement Order 66.

When our hero advocates the goals of Emperor Palpatine and the new villain by hiding Jedi knowledge and seeking to destroy it while dark siders rampage the galaxy, Houston we have a problem in our story telling. Luke is arguing throughout TLJ that Sheev and Snoke are right. The galaxy is better off without the Jedi.

 

It's completely deceptive. Snoke and Palpatine wanted to destroy the Jedi in order to bring their reign of terror to the galaxy and the means they used was to murder thousands of innocent people. Luke wanted to end the Jedi so that greater peace and happiness could be brought to the galaxy and all he had to do was remove himself to an island. Those are not moral equivalence any way shape or form - they have different ends and means with the only commonality that they involve the dissolution of the same organisation.

Say you've got a skyscrapper.

One man wants to demolish it because it has several design flaws, and to do so he removes everyone from it and safely demolishes it.

That is not the same as...

Someone blowing up the tower full of people, not because of any safety concern, but because it's blocking your view of the waterfront.

Those two things have the same goal - removal of the tower - but are different in almost every other way.

 

Uh no. I’m not being deceptive just because you disagree. You don’t think the point I’m making matters much. I think it matters very much. Your explanation to me just sounds like “Luke wants what Sheev and Snoke want becaue *reasons.” That’s really not good enough, writing wise. Luke in TLJ is arguing essentially that Episodes I-VI were a big waste of our (the audience’s) time and everyone should have let Sheev win because the Jedi were the problem.

You seem to be defending Luke on moral grounds because his intent wasn’t murder. I’m not condemning Luke on moral grounds so that defense is irrelevant. I’m criticizing the writing. It undermines the core of SW to that point, using the biggest hero in SW to do so.

However, I’m certainly capable of condemning Luke on moral grounds, but no it won’t be for mass murder of the Jedi. It would be for book burning. It still burns that SW made a movie advocating for the destruction of knowledge and wisdom as the morally correct thing to do. While Luke was busy doing that, dark siders mass murdered and took over the galaxy.

 

That's not Luke's argument. He no doubt thinks it was a good think the Jedi returned and destroyed the Sith. But he thinks, since the Jedi failed again under his watch, that taking them out of the equation might solve the problem this time to bring better light (which he is wrong about). He never says that people should have let Sheev win, or that the Jedi were anywhere close to being as bad as Sheev. In fact his goal in TLJ is to cause Snoke and Kylo to be defeated forever by a better light.

The movie never advocated book burning. Yoda burns the books, not to literally burn the books, but to symbolically show Luke to forget about the past.

 

Snoke didn't torture Rey?



Are you sure?

 

That's probably the least critical point in this discussion.

 

At the time Rey runs off to save Kylo’s soul? Um. No.

Are you deliberating missing the point of the conversation?

 

I wouldn't call it deceptive exactly. It's vicious hyperbole that misrepresents things.

 

Ok, Sheev probably wouldn't have settled with marooning all the Jedi to the first temple to live out their lives, but the end result in TLJ is the same. Snoke, Kylo, and tKoR force their will on the galaxy, and the Jedi don't/are not able to respond.

 

Nothing is being misrepresented, viciously of otherwise. If people are so bothered by having it pointed out that Luke’s goal of ending the Jedi forever in TLJ aligns with Sheev’s goal across episodes I - VI and Snoke’s in the ST, perhaps that’s something LF should have considered before signing off on that characterization.

 

No I didn't realize you were specifically talking about before Rey had met Snoke. I think I've seen you argue before that Kylo is completely accountable for the torture since he brought Rey to his master. It didn't seem implausible that you might forget it was Snoke rather than Kylo who tortured her in the throne room. Anyway, my bad, I misunderstood.

 

The basis for the conversation was that Rey had no reason to see anything but evil in Kylo when she decided to bond with him and care about his feelings. We discussed that point of the story because I said that TLJ demolished the line between good and evil, in contradiction to the SW formula (something Marvel and X-Men don’t do to their formulas) and Rey’s ridiculous turn toward Kylo is part of that.

Kylo led Rey to be Snoke to be tortured. So first he tortured her, then he cuffed her and took her to be tortured again. What a charmer.

 

It was my first time looking in this thread so thanks for the summary. Sorry for jumping to conclusions. I might not agree with you about many things but I do respect how clearly and thoughtfully you make your arguments.

 

@AhsokaSolo

I don’t have a problem with anyone pointing out that they feel Luke Skywalker reached a low point where, like his father, he blamed the Jedi for many of the issues he’d observed. That happened.

The devil is in the details for what both the father and the son did after that though.

The father sought to kill as many Jedi and as many people as he needed to in order to personally establish and oversee a brutal, totalitarian dictatorship.

The son sought to remove himself and the religion he represented from the equation entirely in the hopes that it may break the cycle of religious violence and extremism he’d observed. In doing so he was cut off from all developments from the outside world. He sacrificed his own personal happiness to live alone disconnected from everyone and most importantly... could never bring himself to end the Order. Something within never could allow him to go that far.

And when he realized what was going on in the outside world he reconnected to the Force and later rediscovered his faith, and purpose and a path forward to reach differently and help. He then sacrificed his mortal body to save others and to atone for regrets he had from mistakes he made and IX is now set up to show him with renewed peace and purpose.

Yes, he hit a very low point. Yes, he nearly finished what Sidious wanted without fully realizing how mislead he had become. Yes, he was wreckless and stubborn (as he had been before but more positively before) and chose to go his own way and do his own thing as he has before (more positively before). That’s the story and it’s a good one that adds new aspects to the greatest father and son story ever told.

 

Rey's seeing anything but evil is Kylo is all about the Force. Rey's mind is bridged with Kylo. She can see more than he presents, more than the viewer can see. Similarly, Luke wants to try to save Vader in ROTJ not only because Vader is his father, but because he can see the good in Vader. The way in which he sees this good and the way in which he knows he's right isn't just out of some blind idealism about Dad. He has insight from the Force itself. It doesn't make sense to me to regard Rey who can see more than what comes through just the five senses as limited to that, when the Force and the mind bridge obviously affords her more information.

To me the complaint is more that TLJ doesn't really show the viewer anything of what Rey sees, leaving the viewer mystified, or having to come to some assumption or conclusion based in assumption. But it's also true that ROTJ never showed us what Luke sees either.

You said Luke is an advocate of Order 66. That's vicious hyperbole to me. Order 66 is the slaughter of all the Jedi (it's murder). Luke does not advocate the slaughter of Jedi or want any involvement in slaughtering anyone. His problem is that he almost murdered his nephew (even the potential of slaughter is something Luke is against).

Order 66 isn't "it's time for the Jedi to end because the last Jedi won't pass on what he learned and is potentially suicidal." If you reduce Order 66 to that, it's not Order 66 anymore. If you imply Luke is for Order 66, you imply he is for the slaughter of people. If you say that Luke's inaction is no different than advocating slaughter, that's a false dichotomy.

 

The son did not merely seek to remove himself. I would defend him until I was blue in the face if all he wanted to do was retire in peace. He could have told Rey to take the books, spread the knowledge, learn what she could to battle the dark side. But that's not what he did. He sought to destroy and erase the religion. That is just as arrogant, obviously minus the mass murder, as Vader and Sheev seeking to destroy the Jedi forever. It wasn't Luke's decision to make any more than it was Sheev's or Vader's. Obi and Yoda trusted Luke to carry the Jedi forward. Then he spent TLJ advocating for the Jedi's final destruction and end. I think the magnitude of that deeply arrogant goal is being ignored in this discussion. I personally feel like it's a big part of why TLJ is so bad for the SW formula, which is what this conversation was about. Marvel and X-Men and other franchises respect their own formulas in a way that TLJ, and LF through TLJ, don't.

Now yes, Luke did sort of pull back at the end, but it's very unclear to me how he knew Rey would carry the Jedi forward. He certainly never trained her as a Jedi. As far as he knew, the Jedi texts were destroyed. The ending of TLJ is just too muddied to undo the message that was very persuasively argued through the rest of the film.

The viewer knows exactly what Luke saw. He felt his father's love for him.

 

The viewer knows exactly what Rey saw. She saw the good in Kylo Ren.

 

She saw the good in Kylo Ren because she saw the good in Kylo Ren. That's deep.

Order 66 was enacted in order to eliminate the Jedi from existence. You are choosing to focus on the murders. I am focusing on the goal of ending the Jedi forever. If you want to have a conversation about the mass murders, go right ahead. I won't argue that Luke is responsible for or an advocate for murder. I will just make my point that Luke supports throughout TLJ the goal of ending the Jedi forever, which is the entire point of Order 66. By trying to end the Jedi forever after, thanks to Order 66, Luke is the last Jedi, he is actively trying to cement Order 66 as a success.

 

That's because Order 66 is literally a command sent to all the troopers to kill all Jedi. It's a kill command. I'm not choosing to focus on how a kill command is a kill command aside from identifying it for what it is.

Accurate statement: Luke (like the bad guys) advocates that the Jedi end.
Inaccurate statement: Luke advocates Order 66.

By saying that the inaccurate statement above is the case instead of the accurate one, it makes it hyperbolic. Implying that Luke is for slaughter makes him sound more terrible than he actually is. This may match how you feel about Luke and be true in that sense. But factually it is false.

 

@AhsokaSolo , I can’t see any reason why Yoda later didn’t tell him he wasn’t just speaking metaphorically about her having all that she needs and that he knew she had the secret texts. Clearly more occurred as they spoke after and Luke moved to his meditation spot aiming to do the only thing he could to help others. Even if meant sacrificing his own life.

VIII challenges the many ways in which the Dark Side can operate and influence. Luke was dangerously close to doing something awful and pulled back each time. That he was always able to pull back even at his lowest and darkest places is one of the many ways in which he was different than his father and that ability to change course that he was able to do more often was also something he inspired his father to do as well.

Ben Solo says it’s too late. That’s the Dark Side. The message from Luke and the light is that it never is too late to change course and seek to improve the situation. Since these ideas are big parts of many Star Wars episodes I believe they’re an example of capturing the spirit of some of what’s most important in Star Wars. Even if they this time show someone we know and love (Luke) in a very dark place instead of it being his father Anakin exclusively who has fallen hard.

 

Order 66 existed to end the Jedi. Luke advocates making Order 66 a success, if you really want to split hairs. He's not in a position to advocate Order 66 because all the Jedi besides him are dead. But since he wants to die, yes that is explicitly his goal as he went to Achoo to die, his goal is for the only living Jedi to die and for the Jedi knowledge to die with him.

Luke isn't for slaughter. I'm not arguing that he's for slaughter. You're arguing with no one. What Luke is an advocate for, however, is the ultimate success of Order 66.

I'm not one to assume anything occurred off screen, particularly in this franchise where LF has made it clear that head canon is terrible and makes people bad fans. The point is, the film didn't make the ending message clear at all. How on earth can Rey possibly know anything about the Jedi moving forward? Luke doesn't even know what's in those books. He did, after all, get caught by Yoda thinking they were super boring. That's how I like my sage mentors - too bored by books to read.

 

Order 66 is a order to KILL (aka SLAUGHTER) all Jedi. This isn't splitting hairs. You can't advocate Order 66 without advocating slaughter. If one wants the Jedi to end peacefully, he can't "execute Order 66" to do that.

Burning down the Jedi tree and moping on an island until one dies of old age as the last Jedi while refusing to teach a young Force user anything =/= Order 66. Sure, both have an aim of no more Jedi, but they are very different. If two things have the same end, that doesn't necessarily mean those two things are the same thing (such as in this case, when those two things are not the same thing).

 

Order 66 existed to end the Jedi forever. You're right, it's not splitting hairs. You're deliberately ignoring both my point and the point of Order 66.

 

I'm not ignoring your point.

I'm pointing out that calling what Luke is doing "advocating order 66" is inaccurate. If you would agree he advocates for the Jedi to end but doesn't advocate Order 66, then I would be satisfied.

 

I think Luke knew he’d soon join the Light and live forever and in doing so be able to reconnect with Rey and be for her what he wasn’t before.

IX will show if I’m right about that or not but if that happens then I suspect that line will hold more gravitas after seeing IX.