The Moral Ambiguity of Star Wars

Talking is never evil in and of itself, and Anakin doesn't have to obey. The fool who follows the fool is more foolish than the fool. GIGO? Nope.

 

Oh gawd. PLEASE go back to the other stuff. Palp/ Sidious, same guy, the end.

 

True enough, but Palpatine knew Padme well enough to realize that she would never join Vader.

Alright

Obi-Wan did let Vader kill him, but had it not been for Vader Ben would have continued to be a threat to the Empire. The Purge could have happened without Vader, but it wouldn't have been as successful. Order 66 may have been, but after that the Stormtroopers were too busy enforcing the Empire's rule to be sent after the Jedi.The probots were sent from the Executor and made Ozzel see that the Rebels were there so I was giving Vader credit for it. The Battle of Hoth did ultimately lead to Palpatine's demise, but at the moment it lead to an Imperial victory.

Vader would have tried for sure, but I'm not convinced that Palpatine would lose to him or that he didn't have something up his sleeve.

 

I just wanted to answer Philosopher since he's asking.

The original movie by itself is black and white, but what happened as each movie came along, it became apparent that Lucas showed us that the characters were morally ambiguous by appearing generously compassionate, or brutally self-serving, as the situation demanded.

Some people run around saying that they like their bad guys to be bad and their good guys to be good and Lucas ruined Star Wars by blurring the lines between good and bad. But I don't agree with that and if that reasoning were true about all people and about all movies then no one would like Sergio Leone's spagetti westerns, however, people seem to love these movies specifically because of the fact that the lines between good and bad are blurred. In "A Few Dollars More" we see that the villain appears to struggle with the memory of raping a woman and he is ultimately responsible for her killing herself. Now should you feel sorry for the villian? Hell, I don't know. I guess you can do whatever you want and that's what most film makers want anyway. However, I myself don't feel sorry for El Indio, and besides everyone want to see Colonel Douglous Mortimer get his revenge. Colonel Douglous Mortimer and the man with no name both do things that are corrupt just like the Jedi do things that are corrupt. It just makes for great entertainment. Of course, in Star Wars the good guys have to be held accountable if they keep on walking down that dark path and they were. That's the point of the Jedi purge.

 

I disagree here. If anything, I find Palpatine more evil than Sidious, if you decide to seperate the man. Palpatine acts sincere, but it's actually the complete opposite. Everything he claims in the name of good is actually for evil. Sidious is esstentially upfront and explicit about being evil.

 

There is no separation. There is no reason to assume any kind of "split personality" on the part of Palpatine. The "kindly Chancellor" is a role played by Sidious, nothing more.

 

If these points have been mentioned, I apologise, thread is massive

In regards to the compassion of the Jedi.

The compassion for the Jedi is rooted in the fact that there is the Force.

What does the Force represent?

We know there are two sides; Light and Dark.

Compassion as I understand it in regards of the Jedi is that all beings is made of it, so even though there is slavery on Tattoine the rules set up by the ones who live there, and in extension by the Force in that particular region of the galaxy, they don't intefere with how things are set up, forcing their will upon beings who live in a particular way. The Jedi allow the will of the Force to flow through them. The Sith directs the flow rather than letting the Force direct them.

We do see similarities between them, as OWK points out in ANH to Luke.

Luke: You mean it controls your actions?
Obi: Partially, but it also obeys your commands.


So the Jedi's idea is to let the Force tell them the will of the Force. In fact you can argue that the Jedi is in servitude of the Force, while the Sith Commands the Force, which can explain why Sidious can manipulate the entire galaxy to his will, effectively showing him as the greatest Sith.

The Jedi never use their power for personal gain, as is the idea at least. The don't really have personal belongings, so no credits to buy slaves, and so on. The Jedi order is not a charity fond in that regard. They don't force upon others(slave dealers) their particular point of view of right and wrong(those in the republic most at some point have signed an agreement on how they should conduct themselves, like no slavery) but of course will not allow themselves to die, hence the saber and force training.

The Sith way would of course not bar any problem, "the barbarians, lets show them how to be civilized, by Force if need be". The Jedi wouldn't do that, including the slavery situation of Tattoine.

And why should the Jedi free Schmi? One of the lessons the teach is to let go of things you fear to loose. Why then bring Schmi closer?

I think it was in the book version of RotS, but one of the keys to being a Master is to master one self.



The question becomes, since it all was predicted in a prophecy, was everything that happened the Will of the Force?

If so why would the Force do this?

I read somewhere that there was two statues in Padme's apartment, one of the them is the dancing Shiva, Shiva can be equated to the Force. And the Force is dancing the destruction and creation of itself, through Anakin as the focal point.(He is supposedly created by the Force)

Of course many beings in the galaxy is not self aware of this as the story unfolds, but those attuned to the Force draw closer to this self-awareness as the Jedi and Sith represent, and done by QGJ as he merges with the Force.




Well I think I've rampled enough for now. Just some tidbits is all.

 

funny that in those types of arguments the force is always also part political.

 

I don't see why it wouldn't be given the events we see in the films. It's not a conflict between two good parties which simply differ on financial or economic policies, it's a conflict between good and evil.

 

the forces gives LIFE. LIFE in all its forms is never concerned with politics. it is chiefly concerned with itself, thereby making it awesome and beyond categorization.
the conflict of the prequels is essentially over taxes and quite worldly matters, it's based on the most mundane of subjects, money, AND it encapsulates the struggle of individuals not to become corrupted in their self-created mire. the latter is a moral struggle which concerns us all, who are alive, the former a struggle which is as little about the depth of our existence as to be irrelevant.

 

I agree that the "Will of the Force" likely wouldn't deal with things like Senatorial elections but, given that every political event we see in the films is part of the Sith's larger plan, it makes sense that the Force would come into play given that the Sith are acting against its "will."

 

so in essence you agree with me but would like to retain that you don't but you can't really explain how the force, life itself, is involved in political decisions. because if it is, it would somehow sometimes favour democracy and sometimes dictatorship. or something like that. and clearly it doesn't care about slavery because that's somewhere else.

 

I agree that it wouldn't factor in most of the time but think it would favor a Republic to an Empire because life overall would suffer less under the Galactic Republic than it would under the Galactic Empire. As for slavery, I think that was a Jedi decision and not the Force's decision. I'm not saying the Force cares who wins the seat in the 232nd district on Naboo, but it would "care" about the galaxy being free or under the Empire's heel.

Of course this all takes for granted that I'm right that the Force's "will" always tends towards balance.

 

can i just say your post makes no sense whatsoever?

life is apolitical. it doesn't choose one system over the other for lack or abundance of suffering. because, naturally, suffering is not depending on political systems. but then again this is mostly buddhist teaching so i suggest you get down to study.

 

Life is suffering, but suffering is lessened under a regime that doesn't go around destroying planets.

We see that the Force has taken sides in the conflict between Jedi and Sith because the Prophecy leads to the Empire and the Sith being destroyed.

 

hm... so the empire was favoured by the force for a little bit? or is that human agency?

our suffering, again (i'll just repeat), is not depending on political systems. if you had listened in sunday school, you'd know that the christian story of the fall is concerned with fruits and trees. original sin and all that.
there are other myth that cover the same questioning, why are we suffering, and NONE of them seek for political answers. if you did, you'd be looking into marxism and how supposedly then we'd all be so much happier what with an equal distribution of our wealth.

but then again who says you aren't already looking there, huh?

 

The Force never favored the Empire. It favored the Jedi throughout with the Sith needing to twist the Chosen One into a Sith Lord to circumvent the "Will of the Force." Human agency can circumvent the Force, with the Sith bending the Force to their will and the Jedi following the Force's will.

Of course, Biblically government only arises after humanity has been cast out by God unless one views God's rule of the Garden of Eden as a theocracy. I never said other wise.

Myth may not typically seek political answers, but Star Wars differs in that way. From the beginning the battle between freedom and oppression has been a huge part of Star Wars. The conflict between the Rebellion and the Empire is the one framed by the opening scroll of the original film, with the word "Sith" never said on film until Episode 1.

 

you do realize that all you got to show for is conjecture? it's not good debating, you know?

I never said other wise.

you said that you think the force is political. that the reason we suffer, people in SW suffer, is that the political system is wrong, the force's will has been circumvented, all hell breaks loose.

i merely said that this is new. when dealing with mythology, politics never play into it. now you say they do, what with the jedi being good politicians and the sith bad ones and therefore the force, like, favours good politicians and free people over slaves and rubbish dictators. or something like that.

which for a little period it doesn't but that doesn't keep the logic of your argument because that's of course when it's manipulated. blimey! why am i making this so complicated?

whenever stuff happens that is politically unsound the force was merely too weak to do anything.

From the beginning the battle between freedom and oppression has been a huge part of Star Wars. The conflict between the Rebellion and the Empire is the one framed by the opening scroll of the original film, with the word "Sith" never said on film until Episode 1.

well, and so... what are we talking about? freedom is not being battled for. but again this goes back to non-violence and that doesn't seem to register here very much. and it's apolitical. because you are taking yourself OUT of the conflict. the force is ABOVE the conflict because the battle is about taxation and completely irrelevant stuff. completely unrelated to our actual human condition because it's just a petty repetition of power play.

 

you do realize that all you got to show for is conjecture? it's not good debating, you know?

You're twisting my statements into things I never said which isn't good either.

you said that you think the force is political. that the reason we suffer, people in SW suffer, is that the political system is wrong, the force's will has been circumvented, all hell breaks loose.

i merely said that this is new. when dealing with mythology, politics never play into it. now you say they do, what with the jedi being good politicians and the sith bad ones and therefore the force, like, favours good politicians and free people over slaves and rubbish dictators. or something like that.

which for a little period it doesn't but that doesn't keep the logic of your argument because that's of course when it's manipulated. blimey! why am i making this so complicated?

whenever stuff happens that is politically unsound the force was merely too weak to do anything.

I never said suffering happened because of politics. I merely said suffering is exacerbated and made worse under the Empire. This is a simple fact as for all of its problems the Republic never destroyed planets or tortured people. I also never said that the Force favors good politicians and free people over slaves. If the "will of the Force" was made manifest there would be no slaves and no dictators with all slaves being freed and all dictators being benevolent and democratically elected. However, the galaxy isn't perfect.

I've also never said that the Jedi are politicians. The Jedi fight for justice alongside the good politicians such as Bail Organa and Mon Mothma, but they are two distinct groups which share a similar goal but go about it different ways and have different priorities.

well, and so... what are we talking about? freedom is not being battled for. but again this goes back to non-violence and that doesn't seem to register here very much. and it's apolitical. because you are taking yourself OUT of the conflict. the force is ABOVE the conflict because the battle is about taxation and completely irrelevant stuff. completely unrelated to our actual human condition because it's just a pety repetition of power play.

Freedom is being battled for as is explicitly stated in the opening scroll of Return of the Jedi. "When completed, this ultimate weapon will spell certain doom for the small band of rebels struggling to restore freedom to the galaxy..."

If the Force was actually above the conflict the Prophecy wouldn't have been true and of course it was. We know that balance was brought by the destruction of the Sith.

 

If the "will of the Force" was made manifest there would be no slaves and no dictators with all slaves being freed and all dictators being benevolent and democratically elected. However, the galaxy isn't perfect.

yay! the myth of the benevolent dictatorship.

i love you and all but what you're saying makes no sense.

the jedi exercise the will of the force but they don't stop slavery when they see it because that is not their job. except it should be of course but they had, like, other stuff to do, politics and such.

I've also never said that the Jedi are politicians.

and yet they make political decisions and find that they favour the benevolent or not dictatorship not so much over democracy.

they could, if they made an effort, actually favour marxism but i'm just saying that, of course.

Freedom is being battled for as is explicitly stated in the opening scroll of Return of the Jedi. "When completed, this ultimate weapon will spell certain doom for the small band of rebels struggling to restore freedom to the galaxy..."

look, this is all more or less, shallwesay, not getting my point at all.

If the Force was actually above the conflict the Prophecy wouldn't have been true and of course it was. We know that balance was brought by the destruction of the Sith.

yeah that's sorta saying because we could correct our story in retrospect we can now conclude that it's true etc etc. ever heard of revisionism?

the force IS above conflict. now how can make this bold statement? because it is the representation of the divine in the GFFA. and the divine, however much all the funny fundamentalists want it, is never corrupted or tainted by mere power play. it's how it can be divine in the first place, theology 101.

ps. not sure how i twist your statements. i'm just being quick in apprehension. i'll go to bed now. feel free to correct and/or clear up things i have misrepresented in the meantime, while we sorta have this place to ourselves and all.

 

yay! the myth of the benevolent dictatorship.

You'll notice I said democratically elected. I'm not saying that there should be a dictatorship just that ideally everyone the people choose to have represent them would be benevolent towards them and the world.

i love you and all but what you're saying makes no sense.

the jedi exercise the will of the force but they don't stop slavery when they see it because that is not their job. except it should be of course but they had, like, other stuff to do, politics and such.

The Jedi follow the Will of the Force as best they can, though due to their mortality they at times fall short. The Jedi aren't perfect and are limited to functioning within the borders of the Republic as it is what gives them their authority in the world of 'crude matter.'

and yet they make political decisions and find that they favour the benevolent or not dictatorship not so much over democracy.

they could, if they made an effort, actually favour marxism but i'm just saying that, of course.

The Jedi favor what they believe to be an altruistic and benevolent democracy over the corporate government of the CIS and later believe that the Jedi back the Rebellion against the oppressive Empire. They're fairly consistent in their actions with the information they have. The Jedi's problem in the Prequels is ignorance. When the Republic began to turn totalitarian the Jedi turned against it.

look, this is all more or less, shallwesay, not getting my point at all.

Ah, alright.

yeah that's sorta saying because we could correct our story in retrospect we can now conclude that it's true etc etc. ever heard of revisionism?

The Jedi being right about the prophecy is simply canon. Lucas has said that's what did it. It does have some revisionism in it given that the prophecy didn't exist back in 1983, but it's still the truth in regards to Star Wars.

the force IS above conflict. now how can make this bold statement? because it is the representation of the divine in the GFFA. and the divine, however much all the funny fundamentalists want it, is never corrupted or tainted by mere power play. it's how it can be divine in the first place, theology 101.

I think this is a place we differ largely because of our interpretation of the struggle between the Rebellion and the Empire. You view it as a simple power play and if I thought it was I would agree that the Force is above it(that's what I was attempting to get across with my earlier statement that the Force wouldn't factor in senatorial elections.) However, I view it as a conflict between good and evil with the freedom of the galaxy and now, the Force's balance being determined by the result of the galactic civil war.

ps. not sure how i twist your statements. i'm just being quick in apprehension. i'll go to bed now. feel free to correct and/or clear up things i have misrepresented in the meantime, while we sorta have this place to ourselves and all.

'Twisting my statements' may not have been the right phrase, but I do think either I'm misrepresenting my views, you're misinterpreting them, or some combination of the two and I'm not sure which it is.

 

so if people choose to elect a dictator you'd hope at least they'd have the good sense of electing one that only wants to dictate nice things?

what planet are you from? and isn't that btw what anakin wants: quicker decisions so the war can end sooner? isn't that the beginning of every dictatorship that someone gets the funny impression that if they were in control, things would be run so much smoother and more efficiently and they wouldn't have to worry about decisionmaking and pleasing EVERY single person?

so what exactly are you defending?

that democracy is better even though flawed, that if run by selfless people it'd be so much better but generally we'll pretend the system is okay while it is always ALWAYS run by people and entirely depending on US.

The Jedi follow the Will of the Force as best they can, though due to their mortality they at times fall short. The Jedi aren't perfect and are limited to functioning within the borders of the Republic as it is what gives them their authority in the world of 'crude matter.'

that makes them accomplices in a system that is based on lies and on the selflessness of the people who run it. and since the jedi are now part of the corruption, as eloquently explained by you, we can no longer rely on their judgement and sanity.

in fact i have long given up on both and so you should, too.

The Jedi's problem in the Prequels is ignorance.

and a little bit more.

You view it as a simple power play

look, if anything, you should be able to see that bit... luke's training isn't about a splendid readiness for battle, it's a mental preparation. the power play is evident in the personal relationships, the way the jedi try to control everything so it fits into their plans, and in the political. it's not interesting any other way.

sure the jedi were flawed. but you rationalize their flaws as a group, their inability to let go of their share of power, as human, but then you're unable to do the same with anakin. and i'm not even asking you to rationalize his 'flaws', i'm asking you to understand that either group or individual has become stuck in the mire and neither is able to see the light in this. that's the tragedy of it.


as for your views, i'm certainly mixing in older stuff here as well, that's the (un-) joy of having debated this sith for so long. but i tend to take things, invert them and then see what i've got. and your views seem to always imply really strange things. yes, we would like democracy but in essence you cannot force it on people and in order to maintain it, we have to switch to some kind of dictatorship in the transitional phase. dodgy, no? backing a political system is questionable at best, it lacks the insiht that people are the ones who guide people and the way we do that is irrelevant to politics. and so on and so forth.

 

so if people choose to elect a dictator you'd hope at least they'd have the good sense of electing one that only wants to dictate nice things?

what planet are you from? and isn't that btw what anakin wants: quicker decisions so the war can end sooner? isn't that the beginning of every dictatorship that someone gets the funny impression that if they were in control, things would be run so much smoother and more efficiently and they wouldn't have to worry about decisionmaking and pleasing EVERY single person?

so what exactly are you defending?

that democracy is better even though flawed, that if run by selfless people it'd be so much better but generally we'll pretend the system is okay while it is always ALWAYS run by people and entirely depending on US.


Basically what I'm saying is that in a perfect world the people would elect representatives who stay only as long as their terms allow and their constituents want them to, who during their tenure in office would best represent the desires of their constituents. I'm not saying that they shouldn't please the public which they serve, because they unquestionably should, just that ideally the public would only desire positive and benevolent things. However, in reality it will always be flawed but, that doesn't mean we should abandon it.

that makes them accomplices in a system that is based on lies and on the selflessness of the people who run it. and since the jedi are now part of the corruption, as eloquently explained by you, we can no longer rely on their judgement and sanity.

in fact i have long given up on both and so you should, too.

The Jedi are completely unaware of the lies and are motivated by a selfless desire to fight for the good of the galaxy. They honestly believe that what they are doing is fighting to stop the Sith from imposing a dictatorship on the rest of the galaxy. The fact that they fall short is no reason to give up on them, it simply makes them human.

and a little bit more.

True, there's an excessive trust in the infallibility of the Republic, though I think that like the rest of their problems is all rooted in their ignorance of the Sith and of what the Republic has become.

look, if anything, you should be able to see that bit... luke's training isn't about a splendid readiness for battle, it's a mental preparation. the power play is evident in the personal relationships, the way the jedi try to control everything so it fits into their plans, and in the political. it's not interesting any other way.

It's a mental preparation to ensure that Luke will be able to resist the Dark Side. The only thing that they're wrong about in the Original Trilogy is that Anakin's not truly dead, but given that Vader constantly referred to Anakin Skywalker as if he was some other person until he told Luke about his parentage shows that only Luke and Padme are actually aware of what's going on within him.

sure the jedi were flawed. but you rationalize their flaws as a group, their inability to let go of their share of power, as human, but then you're unable to do the same with anakin. and i'm not even asking you to rationalize his 'flaws', i'm asking you to understand that either group or individual has become stuck in the mire and neither is able to see the light in this. that's the tragedy of it.

The difference is in motivation and their actions. The Jedi are motivated by a selfless desire to defend peace and justice while Anakin is motivated solely out of his inability to let go of his wife. The Jedi also never imposed a dictatorship on the galaxy or killed children. Part of the Sith's problem is that they believe the ends justify the means.

as for your views, i'm certainly mixing in older stuff here as well, that's the (un-) joy of having debated this sith for so long. but i tend to take things, invert them and then see what i've got. and your views seem to always imply really strange things. yes, we would like democracy but in essence you cann

 

Master_Starwalker, I just want to chime in here to say I'm with you all the way. It's not that I totally disagree with darth_frared -- I think she makes some excellent points as well -- but IMO M_S has an extremely valid and clear-sighted perspective on the current discussion. This quote in particular...:

The Jedi are completely unaware of the lies and are motivated by a selfless desire to fight for the good of the galaxy. They honestly believe that what they are doing is fighting to stop the Sith from imposing a dictatorship on the rest of the galaxy. The fact that they fall short is no reason to give up on them, it simply makes them human.

... stands in very truthful counter-point to some of the assertions about the Jedi I've been seeing bandied about on the boards recently. There seems to be a perception among some fans (not naming anyone in particular, since I don't know if frared shares this view) that the Jedi and the Sith are not very distinct from one another in terms of erroneous intentions and 'evil' (ie, selfish) motivations, and that the Jedi somehow 'deserve' their destruction, that their fall is the will of the Force. I strongly disagree with that viewpoint. The Jedi as a group succumb to the same corruption that afflicts the rest of the Galaxy, including and perhaps rooted in the political system of the Republic, but it does not follow that they are individually "Sith-like", selfish, arrogant, and in need of karma/justice/the Force to "purge" or punish them.

But all that's just an aside. Don't let me derail the mainly political jag you guys are currently on. Move along, move along...

 

Star Wars is mostly prespective. The Jedi believe their good and in the cause for which they fight.

The Sith feel their good and in the cause they fight for. Each side wants to wipe the other side out.

It's kind of like politics. Dems. & Rep. They both support the feelings and belifes in their own groups. But, when face against each other they are flat out nasty.