PT The Mystery of Sifo Dyas… Canonized…

Well a few issues arise.
Sifo-Dyas was a Sith and presumably still part of the Jedi Order when he ordered the clone army in his name. Isn't that a bit risky? Sure, I doubt they planned for him to be exposed as a Sith but it can happen.
So if Sifo-Dyas is exposed as a Sith, say a year after ordering the clone army, said army is now tainted in the eyes of the Jedi. It was ordered by a known Sith. There is a number of other reasons why the army should be tainted to the Jedi but let's ignore those.
Why use his own name? If Dooku ordered the army and he used Sifo-Dyas name, either because he had just killed him or Sifo-Dyas had been killed in other ways and Dooku just used because he was a recently dead Jedi. This makes some sense, the clone army is removed from the Sith. They ordered it but their names are not on it.

Not really connected to the clone army, so not one but two Jedi masters turned in a fairly short passage of time.
This makes Anakin's fall less unique, two Jedi fell not long before him, Jedi Masters at that.
And it also makes the Jedi's rule of no attachment and train from birth a bit more shaky.
Anakin had attachment yes but two other Jedi, who did not have that, turned to the Dark Side regardless.
Also, it paints the Jedi Order as not paying attention, three Jedi turned to the Dark Side in a little more than a decade and the Jedi had no idea that it happened.

Bye for now.
Balckboard Monitor

 

His last message to the Jedi, in the newcanon novel Force Collector, doesn't really come across as "Sith apprentice" - more "well-intentioned extremist Jedi"



"This is Master Sifo-Dyas, en-route to the desert moon that orbits Oba Diah. I'm with ... with - Silman, flying emergency survival capsule number 775519, and our long-range transmitter has been knocked out. We're under attack by the Pykes, and I'm preparing to jettison this project in hopes that it will be found, and-"

[static]

"And the truth is, we won't make it out of this alive. If that's the case, so be it. But there are things that mustn't be lost. This is what it's come to - and I want ... | want everyone to understand that I've done my best. Some may disagree with my methods, but these are desperate times and someone, somewhere should know: as you are aware, I have seen a vision of the future that I feel warrants an army. You've disagreed with me, but I felt I had no choice. Therefore I have ordered one: a clone army from the Kaminoans. Something must be done, and I have made that decision. It may haunt me, and-"

[static]

"or then again, maybe I won't have to live with that decision very long at all."

"Hurry - we can't take another hit like that!"

"Come find me!"

 

Dooku and Sifo-Dyas serving Sidious doesn't mean they were all Sith apprentices at the same time. Sifo-Dyas was the apprentice, then Maul took his place, and finally Dooku once Maul was defeated. All three served under him (like I'm sure a bunch of other people did), but only one was the Sith apprentice.

 

Right, I don’t mean they were officially Sith apprentices at the same time. More like servants who could become apprentices, as we saw with other dark-siders in TCW.

But the timeline’s a bit muddled, and I think this is what the TCW producers mentioned when talking about Sifo-Dyas, so it might just be that Lucas is either flexible with specific dates or doesn’t care too much about that.

Because Sidious trained Maul from a young age. So when would he have trained and lost Sifo-Dyas, who was supposed to have died around the same time as Maul? Or is the implication that Lucas does not consider Maul to have trained with Sidious from a young age?

 

It's worth remembering that Sifo Dyas was apparently a "leading member of the Jedi Council" when he first contacted the Kaminoans. Talk about your double lives.

 

Maul was trained by Sidious from a young age in order to become a Sith Lord, but that doesn't mean he was one all that time. He was one by the time of TPM, but he replaced Sifo-Dyas and was replaced by Dooku.

Sifo-Dyas, like Dooku, was a Jedi Master that was converted to the dark side, so most of his "training" was done. All Sidious needed was to offer power that he otherwise couldn't have. Or power as means to an end.

 

In Lucas's headcanon, maybe, but because no Legends author ever got to see that, it's not true in Legends.

It may not be true in the "Disney canon" either.

Which is why Wookieepedia's canon page makes no allusions to Sifo-Dyas being The Apprentice before being replaced by Maul.

 

I wasn't talking about what Wookieepedia, Disney or the EU pretend to be true.

 

It's a fictional universe. There's no such thing as "what's true" only "what's accepted"

 

But how did this work?
Sidious turns Sifo-Dyas and he is now the Sith apprentice and at the same time, Sidious is also training Maul, but he isn't officially a Sith. Then Sifo-Dyas is killed, Maul officially becomes a Sith then he gets killed and now Dooku, that Sidious also kept around, gets promoted to Sith.
Sounds like Sidious is really using the "Technically" to get around the rule of two.
He must have had Sifo-Dyas, Maul and Dooku under him for a while and got by the rule of two by saying "Well, Technically, only one of them is a sith the rest are not so they don't count."

How long did he have Sifo working for him?
He must have trained Maul for some time, at least several years. Did he turn Sifo before that or after?
If before, then Sifo-Dyas was a Sith Lord and sat on the council for a good while and the rest of the Jedi had not a clue.
If after, he trained Maul, thinking he could become a Sith but didn't make him one. Does that means he did not have an apprentice at the time? If he did, who was that then?
And if Maul only became a Sith with the death of Sifo-Dyas then since Sifo-Dyas is said to have been killed almost, as in less than, ten years ago and Maul was killed at least ten years ago. How does the timeline work?
And even if Sifo-Dyas was killed just before TPM then Maul was a Sith for how long, a month?

When AotC was written, there was Sifo-Dyas, it was Sido-Dyas, really Sidious. Only in reshoots did Lucas make it into a real but dead Jedi.
And from what the film says, the implication is that he had nothing to do with the ordering of the army.
That was all Dooku and Sidious and Sifo-Dyas was just a name they used.
I am not sure what purpose is served by having Sifo be a Sith as well. It seems only to make this needlessly convoluted.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

Hence the importance of the creator of said fictional universe. That's the inherent source of truth. What's accepted and what's true aren't necessarily the same thing.

He's not getting around anything, he's sticking (and enforcing) to the rule of two. He doesn't have a bunch of Sith as his apprentices. He has a Sith Lord as an apprentice, and assets on the side ready to replace him if necessary. Not unlike what he does in both trilogies. He has Maul, which is then replaced by Tyranus, but has Anakin being groomed on the side, ready to take the position when the time comes and if he proves himself worthy. Same with Luke in the OT. An asset ready to take Vader's position if he's deemed worthy.

That's the reality of the Sith, the rule of two. The master is always after the best, and the apprentice is always after an ally to get rid of the master and take his position. Not a master with many apprentices, nor an apprentice as a master.

But only one of them was a Sith. It's not a technicality, it's the reality.

So? A Sith Lord was the Chancellor for a good while and nobody has a clue either. They did their best to not leave any clues.

I'm not following.

We don't know. What we know is that Maul was trained ever since he was a kid by Sidious and was a Sith Lord by the time of TPM.

That's not the implication at all. Sifo-Dyas, who he worked for and what his level of involvement was, is a complete mystery. And what is established is that the Sith were behind it all.

If anything it further establishes that Sidious was behind it all. That Sifo-Dyas was not a Jedi who coincidentally happened to have a vision of a war and advocate for an army that happened to serve Sidious's interests just right.

 

The "death of the author" idea is that the creator's opinions hold no special weight, when those opinions are expressed outside of the work itself.

So, if something is not stated in the work, then the creator saying something outside the work, in an interview, say, doesn't make it true.

If Lucas says "Sifo-Dyas was a Dark Lord of the Sith" - but this doesn't appear in the film, then it isn't necessarily "true" - and the readers don't have to take his word for it.

And conversely, if Disney and Legends don't have him as "The Apprentice that Maul replaced" - that doesn't make what they say false. To say "Disney is writing falsehoods" would be bashing.

 

I don't subscribe to this "death of the author" idea. The author definitely, always, has the authority to dictate what's real in the fictional universe they've created. Headcanon is for fans, what the author says is canon.
If the legal owners of a franchise didn't create it but add to it with stories not made up by its creator, then I don't see that as true canon. Unless the creator indicates that it is.

So, if GL says Sifo-Dyas was a Sith, then I say he was a Sith.

 

If Gene Roddenberry says women can't be starship captains, and later Trek writers say they can, who do you believe?

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/StarTrekS3E24TurnaboutIntruder

(Warning - language present)

It's the same with Lucas.

 

If that's Gene's canon, then that's the true canon of his creation, regardless of how I feel about it.
There are certain things in GL's stories that I strongly disapprove of (his films especially are lacking in diversity and gender equality), but they're still canon. I have to recognize them as such, because it's his creation. Not mine, not yours, not Disney's. His and his alone.

 

If Roddenberry said that, why would you not believe him? Because you don't like it? Because someone else came along and ignored that?

Why would one disregard the creator/author on his fictional universe (the only one who has the full picture and knows the ins and outs of his creation) over someone else who happens to get the chance to play around in a sandbox they didn't create?

If the author is not important, then who is? The license holder?

 

Except the difference here is that he has Sifo-Dyas as the sith apprentice and Maul as a darksider in training and possibly Dooku as a turned Jedi. So he has three Darkside Force users working for him.
With Anakin and Luke, neither of them were turned darksiders when Palpatine had other Sith under him.
So he gets around the rule of two by saying "Yes I have three darkside Force users working for me but only one of them has the title of Sith therefore I have not broken the rule of two."
Had he just given the other the title of Sith and nothing else, then suddenly he would break the rule of two and now all Hell breaks loose.

But again, if I am understanding correctly, Sidious had Sifo-Dyas as the official Sith apprentice but was also training Maul in the Dark side of the Force. So he had two apprentices, Sifo-Dyas and Maul. And maybe Dooku. So Sifo-Dyas could have joined with Maul and acted against Sidious.

First, the chancellor would not spend all day and everyday around other Jedi, a Jedi Master that sits on the council would. Second, Yoda sensed the Dark Side in Dooku in AotC. Third, Qui-Gon was able to ID Maul as a Sith.

If Sidious had been training Maul for several years and when he started to train Maul, Sifo-Dyas had not yet turned. So at that point, did Sidious have another Sith apprentice? If he did, who was that?
If he did not, why did he not make Maul his official Sth apprentice? He did not have one at the time so why not?

But the timeline is wonky. Based on AotC, Sifo-Dyas was killed almost ten years ago, so pretty soon AFTER TPM. But Maul was killed during TPM so Sifo-Dyas was alive at that time.
So how could Maul have taken Sifo-Dyas place as a Sith when Maul was killed before Sifo-Dyas?
The order of Sifo-Dyas to Maul to Dooku does not work. Sifo-Dyas was killed after TPM and if Maul could not be a Sith until after Sifo-Dyas death then he was no Sith in TPM. Which is contradicted by the film.
Unless both Maul and Sifo-Dyas were Sith at this time but this would violate the rule of two.
If Sifo-Dyas became a Sith with the death of Maul, now the timeline works. But then he was a Sith for very short amount of time.

Yes that is very much the implication.
Sifo-Dyas was killed almost ten years ago, according to Obi-Wan and apparently BEFORE the ordering of the clone army. Jango has also never heard of him.
So if Obi-Wan is correct and there is no reason to think otherwise, Sifo-Dyas had nothing to do with the clone army. He was killed before the order was placed so most likely the ones that placed the order just used his name.

If we just use the films and no other EU, which you seem to want to do, then there is nothing about Sifo-Dyas and visions of war and the like. AotC only says that he was a Jedi master that sat on the council and he was killed almost ten years ago. That is it.
So the film paints the picture that the Sith either killed Sifo-Dyas and then used his name when ordering the army. Or Sifo-Dyas had been killed for reason unconnected to the Sith and they just used his name as a recently dead Jedi.
And that makes sense, the Sith don't want their name on the clone army order as that would make it hugely suspicious. Not that it isn't that already.
Suppose that Dooku had been the name of the person that placed the order. Do you think the Jedi would find that odd?
So if Sifo-Dyas is a Sith and the army is ordered in his name, in case that would ever get out then the army plan is ruined as the Jedi would know that it was ordered by a Sith. So now the plan makes less sense. If Sifo-Dyas was a sith then it would work better if they killed another Jedi and used that Jedi's name when placing the order.
If you really want to have Sifo-Dyas involved in this, make him a Jedi that had visions but those visions were sent by Sidious and Palpatine was friends with him and he suggested the idea of a clone army. Sifo-Dyas suggest it to the council but they refuse. He makes the initial contact, spurred on by Dooku and once that is done, Dooku kills him. So now it would look to the Jedi that one of their own did order the army.
making Sifo-Dyas a Sith just makes it needlessly complicated.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Aside from the visions not yet having been confirmed as having been sent by Sidious - that's roughly how the Disney Canon and the Legends C-Canon, have it - Sifo-Dyas is a loyal Jedi, but also someone interested in the use of clones to protect the Republic.

 

It's a plot hole at this point

 

He has a lot of people working for him, some trained in the ways of the Force, others not. He has only one Sith apprentice, a Sith apprentice that he's willing to replace if necessary or when the time comes.

Why does that matter?

You're conflating people trained in the ways of the Force, or "dark side Force user" with "Sith Lord". They are not the same thing.

Who said Sifo-Dyas is even aware of Maul to begin with?

Sifo-Dyas could have turned someone else and join forces against Sidious. But it's Sidious job to prevent that from happening.

And a member of the Jedi Council (for how long?) would spend "all day and every day" around other Jedi? Says who?

And Dooku was not hiding anything when Yoda recognized the dark side in him. Sidious and Sifo-Dyas would (and so would Dooku whenever he was converted and was still around).

The time they spend around other Jedi is irrelevant the moment they can use the dark side to cloud the perception of others. They can do that, thus they would do that whenever it was necessary.

If, if, if... That's a lot irrelevant speculation, looks like an attempt to find out a problem where there is none. We don't know when Sifo-Dyas was turned to begin with. That should kill some of those "if" trains.

That's what Obi-Wan says to Lama Su, but that's not all he says. Based on AOTC, the timing of Sifo-Dyas death is a mystery:

"They say Master Sifo-Dyas placed an order for a clone army at the request of the senate almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that."

Read above.

I'm using George Lucas's works. And like I said before, that's not only what's said in AOTC.

How? The Jedi don't know that Sifo-Dyas is a Sith to begin with.

The plan does make less sense with the cumulative assumptions you're making that aren't necessarily true to begin with. And why would they kill another Jedi and use his identity when they already have a Jedi identity willing to work with them?

 

Just curious, @Alexrd , but from Lucas’s works alone, can we tell whether there’s a difference between being trained in the Jedi arts to use the dark side of the Force and being an actual Sith Lord? That is, is there a real difference beyond the fact that a Sith Lord is given that title by the reigning Sith Master.

 

I'd say so.

The Jedi arts are the martial arts that the Jedi (and the Sith) use.

Using the dark side of the Force doesn't make one a Sith, although all Sith use it.

The Sith are an order, just like the Jedi. Specific knowledge and discipline is passed down from within. But receiving Sith training in and on itself doesn't make you a Sith Lord. I'm sure there are conditions to become a Sith Lord, it's not something that the Sith Master bestows to another without being earned. But then again, that goes for any sort of title or position of significance, Sith or not.

 

Well just take Anakin in RotS. All he does is cut of Mace's hand and then he pledges himself to Sidious's teachings and then Sidious names him Darth Vader. So now he is a Sith. He had no Sith training at that point. He had turned to the dark side and was willing to learn and follow Sidious.
That was apparently all it took.

So "Sith" comes across as just a title that the Sith Master gives out.
So nothing stops a Sith Master giving out multiple Sith titles other than the rule of two.
So Sidious could have five dark side Force users as his apprentices and if he names just one as a Sith, "You are now Darth Evilsounding" and the rest are just dark side Force users, then that it fine and they will work together with no problem.
But if he names more than one "Darth Evilsounding." now this violates the rule of two and they will immediately start fighting amongst themselves.

Other comments,

Nope, AotC does not establish that the date Sifo-Dyas was killed as any kind of mystery, Obi-Wan is able to give a timeline after just hearing the name. If Obi-Wan was unsure when Sifo-Dyas died, why didn't he just ask Mace and Yoda, that would take less than a second. The contradiction is that Sifo-Dyas apparently ordered a clone army AFTER his death. That is what making Obi-Wan hesitant, these two facts don't go together.
Kind of like how the President in Dr Strangelove is confused as to how a general was able to launch a nuclear strike.

What Lucas works are those? In the films it is never said or even implied that Sifo-Dyas was a Sith.
And if I am understanding this issue correctly, Sifo-Dyas being a Sith is not in any SW work, film, novel, comic etc. It was just something Lucas said.

And as I've said, the timeline in the films don't fit with Sifo-Dyas being a Sith, dying and then Maul becoming one. AotC said he was killed after TPM and Maul was killed during TPM. So Sifo-Dyas was alive during TPM.
And even if assume that Obi-Wan was wrong and Sifo-Dyas was killed more than ten years ago.
The order for the clone army was placed less than ten years ago so then Sifo-Dyas could not have done that as he was dead by then.

The only thing I can see working is this, Sifo-Dyas turned and was a Sith but he was killed some time before TPM. Maul then took his place as a Sith, then he was killed and Dooku took his place.
Then the plan to order the clone army was put in motion, and as Sifo-Dyas being a Sith was not known to the Jedi, the Sith just used his name. But then the question becomes, what point is there by having Sifo-Dyas a Sith? It changes nothing. He was just a dead person whose name the Sith used.

At the time the order is placed but ten years is a long time, a lot can happen and IF Sifo-Dyas is exposed then their plan is ruined. I give Palpatine credit for being smarter than this.

Well I can quote what you yourself said in this thread a few pages ago;

So you admit that AotC implies that the Sith killed Sifo-Dyas so they could use his name when ordering the army.
And the Sith at the time would include Dooku, a Jedi, so even when they had a Jedi working with them, they did not use his name, they used the name of another Jedi. To cover their tracks.

And the why is easy, in the original script, you had Jedi Sido-Dyas, ie Sidious, and the Jedi knew no such Jedi existed. Jango said he was hired by a Darth Tyrannus, who the Jedi recognized as a Sith. Lucas felt that this made things super obvious that the clone army was fishy so he changed some things to make it work better.
Now a real but dead Jedi Master is said to have ordered the army and now Jango only talks about Tyrannus.
So having Dooku's name on the clone order would make it screamingly obvious to the Jedi that something was up. The same would happen if Sifo-Dyas was a Sith and had been exposed as that in the ten years following the placement of the order.

About Gene Roddenberry and women not being starfleet captains.

Well since Gene had this idea about humans in the future being better and more evolved and having done away with racism and bigotry. For there to be rampant sexism is kind if incongruent with that.
So one could argue that Gene misspoke or that he said that but then changed his mind.
It seems that Gene was going through a bad divorce at the time so that might have influenced his opinion.
Or he did really feel this way in which case I think it is a good thing that they ignored it.

@Lulu Mars

But Trek isn't very consistent in terms of continuity. In Some TOS ep. it is said that humans have explored the entire galaxy and even gone to other galaxies. That is very much not the case in the first season of TNG, that Gene had the most influence over. So what Gene wants could and did change.
TOS the Omega Glory has pretty naked US Nationalism but in early TNG we get that flags are stupid.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

So I'm confused. I thought there was a whole episode about this in TCW series-which is considered canon-that more or less explained everything and resolved this topic.

Did I miss something?

 

there is, but recently this quote from Lucas emerged, where he’s referring to Sifo Dyas as a Sith apprentice, which seems to contradict the established canon.

I take it with a grain of salt. Lucas also claims he always knew Vader was Luke’s father, despite early drafts of Star Wars clearly contradicting this.