ST The New Definitely Not Improved Even More Horrible Than The Last Two Rumors Thread

I feel like Marvel is better equipped to be that and without the psychological aspects of Luke and Vader and Yoda the OT would not be for me what it is. Without the attention it placed on those areas it’s a fun adventure film hero’s journey with loads of imagination, genre blending, action, world building and cutting edge visuals and sound that others have narrowed the gap on.

The controversial topics explored in the ST so far are primarily what remind me just how vital myth built around psychological human truths are. And it’s here where I remain confident that Star Wars is still delivering tremendously in ways that other blockbusters are not.

 

I cannot forget, unsee or ignore what I saw, it's ingrained in my head. I haven't been able to rewatch any of the I-VI due to the ST. Waiting to see what IX has in store and so far yikes.....seems like I might never be able to make myself rewatch any of the Palpatine Saga movies again. Will likely have to wait until the next trilogy that doesn't touch iconic characters and where they can do whatever they like in those stories and I wouldn't care.

 

Most children understand good vs evil, which is why the OT is timeless. Most children probably do not understand the complex condition of someone dealing with PTSD. It's a hard topic to discuss and depict in an adult movie, let alone a movie that is supposed to appeal to children.

 

So it's a psychological human truth that a guy who cares about his family so much that he would be willing to die for them would then go on to contemplate murdering his nephew in his sleep when his views on the Force are clearly different and somewhat more liberal than his pre-Galactic Civil War predecessors? That sounds like Kasdan-tier projection.

 

But would it really be so horrible if an animated "what if" series existed - that you wouldn't have to watch or acknowledge - but that might bring some joy (back) to people who also used to be fans and feel disenfranchised now? Would the sky be falling if that happened?

 

Theoden is a good example or the one people always bring up Gandalf. Gandalf never outshone any character and he mentored them too all at the same time. These writers all wrote Luke as someone who Oh NO he'll outshine and take away all of the focus from the Luke 2.0 character. RJ basically said that Luke is basically an older version of Rey if he gets back into the fight (more like she's a younger Luke, lol). I mean Tolkien also wrote Gandalf out of the way numerous times but his characterization stayed the same and it was always for the cause reasons.

 

I like the ST, IMO they're perfectly fine movies on the levels of the MCU. But they do have their big flaws which causes a disconnect for me atleast with the previous Saga movies. The ST feels more like an alternate timeline, maybe it's because of this disconnect that I don't dislike them as much. They haven't ruined Anakin Skywalker Saga too me, I still smile seeing the end of ROTJ.

But it is a major fault in the ST if it can create such a disconnect in my head that I can basically handwave it like it doesn't exist while I'm watching the old movies, that's a failure on the people at Lucasfilm and Disney.

 

honestly a lot of people I talked too including kids too who started SW with the ST, kinda of hated Luke and that he was being a jerk made him look worse. Doesn't really seem like a great entry point for such a character.

I mean the movie does an active effort to try to attempt (but fail) to make Kylo more sympathetic at the expense of Luke too. When you even got Rey who sides with him over Luke....

 

The biggest irony in all of Ender's posts so far is that we could have easily had a better psychological arc concerning itself with war trauma and a lack of faith in one's ability to make the right choices if Finn wasn't made out to be a goofy janitor. The fact that this doesn't get as much criticism as it does solely because many people here decide to treat representation in a quantitative matter instead of a qualitative matter just buries any good discussion one could have regarding the quality (or lack thereof) in this trilogy.

 

I think children can understand a type of PTSD, but I think bringing in PTSD to this particular franchise doesn't make sense. Luke isn't the only character that should have PTSD. Hell, he isn't even the biggest candidate for it. Leia clearly should suffer from it. And Finn. And of course Rey, our actual protagonist, who's POV should come first above and beyond every other character's pov. I don't think there's really any good psychological argument to shift the narrative to Luke and Kylo's respective angst the way that TLJ did.

If it was about PTSD, Luke's distress should have been primarily linked to the trauma of all the young lives he failed to protect. He knew them individually, presumably cared for them, and trained their butcher. He should have been inconsolable mourning for them, dreaming of their deaths. That's what films do with soldiers that suffer from PTSD - they show flashbacks and nightmares to the specific trauma that is usually focused on deaths if not personal near-death experiences (which I don't think is the subject of Luke's trauma).

 

@Talos of Atmora : I love the idea of that arc for Finn. Lots of potential for that conceptually given his programming.

Re: Luke contemplating murder of his nephew for a moment in a dark side daze? I reconcile it only as a reminder of the impact all of the war and the losses he’s endured and the pain he’s endured and his father’s history of violence and him not seeing him as his nephew in that moment but as someone who was the single biggest threat to his life’s work of trying to right the wrongs of his father. It brought out the dark side in him again and toward the kind of combat instinct he’d worked hard to free from his mind via Jedi teachings. He messed up. Badly. I think there’s value in seeing that great people with tremendous skill and training can still mess up badly. Particularly around issues that they’ve struggled with before.

The moment is brief and he regains control as he had decades earlier but this time... there are negative consequences. This time his lack of force control impacted others.

 

Is there any need to be so condescending to Ender's point of view?

I don't know that's what I kind of got from Luke in TLJ even if it could have been done better.

 

Well, if you start with that movie, of course you would hate Luke. Completely natural reaction from IMO kids and adults. Being cynical and being a humiliated loser is the deathknell for garnering sympathy for a character. What would there be to him to people where the character doesn't skate by on nostalgia?

I think it's nonsensical because no incentive to go back and watch the old movies if you go "hey new generation, hate Luke Skywalker". Even if you did, you will likely watch and be disconnected because you hate him and know how he turns out so the OT is unlikely to change minds. Good luck on that "watch 9 movies as one cohesive story" goal.

 

I don't think Luke cares about the dead students (or the ones who joined Kylo) seemed more preoccupied with his 1 second of madness. And that 1 second was enough for him to abandon the whole galaxy. That seemed to be his trauma in the film. He seems to put that has his biggest failure......even though Kylo was already corrupt before that moment.

 

As you can see, it's not exactly unearned.

 

I like to bring up Gandalf whenever someone starts using "But Luke would overshadow new characters" excuse.
And i like to bring up Theoden whenever someone starts using "TLJ Luke is good character". Because Theoden's premise, archetype and personality is very similar to TLJ Luke, except it was written very well.
If you will put Theoden and TLJ Luke side by side and ask people to choose one of them as better character, 90% would choose Theoden. Looking at how Theoden was handled by Jackson you will start noticing all flaws and mistakes RJ had in writing Luke's character.
Like, for a example, you will realize that you can make unlikable (at first) character understandable and somewhat sympathetic.
And you will realize that being irritated and cautious old man doesnt mean being irritating character.
And you will be in awe looking at how one writer can elevate broken and fallen old man and make him one of the most heroic leaders, sacrificing himself to save the day in the most epic charge ever, while joking about another writer who turned broken and fallen old man into the uninspiring coward who saved 20 people (after letting billions die) pretending its a big deal.

TLJ Luke was mediocrity of character writing. Hell, even the character from my avatar (Arthur from Excalibur movie) was somewhat similar to TLJ Luke and had better arc than him.

 

Are you two really debating whether Luke seemed upset enough over the death of his students?







People grieve differently. For a guy who’s reaction to seeing the scorched remains of the people who raised him from birth was this...



I’d say watching Luke fall to his knees in anguish and lean on his friend for support as he expresses shock and anguish gave us some unambiguous demononstration of grief. If you’re on a smart phone. Click on the lower photo. Look at his face.

 

Probably not the best moment for Ender. Still I don't understand why people who appreciated certain aspects of Luke's TLJ apparently have to be held in contempt.

 

I can tell you weren’t alive in the 70s. It’s not like the world was simpler then, considering Watergate, Vietnam, the oil crisis, etc. it’s just we didn’t have 24 hour news and the Internet.

 

To your first bit, I don't mean to be condescending if that's to me, and I'm not sure what specifically is. I disagree but I don't disrespect the take.

I think it can be read into Luke's behavior, but it's a problem that it has to be read into imo. Luke vocalizes things that he's stressed about, and he doesn't bring up those deaths. He has a pov when it comes to failing Kylo, but not failing those students. To me, narrative emphasis matters. The narrative put more importance on Luke failing Kylo by a lot, which tells me that I should think Luke failing Kylo is more important. That's a huge problem when in my value system, by far Luke's bigger failure was in not protecting his students from Kylo, including when he began to suspect that something was wrong enough to sneak up on Kylo in the middle of the night.

 

I literally apologized for that pages back and even if I hadn’t... one could potentially summarize some of Legends Luke in that way anyway. It would miss detail obviously but it would also function as a summary of some of what exists of Luke in Legends.

 

@AhsokaSolo is largely correct because not even Rey seems even the slightest bit perturbed by the fact that he not only killed his biological father, he also killed all the people at the academy who he trained alongside.

 

I don't disagree. But I think you'd agree that, while not emphasised, it's still a valid reading. For me it gives Luke a sympathetic reason for being the way he is.

And, nah, I wasn't talking about you.

 

I think that it's valid to read into it that Luke is distraught by the deaths of his students. I think it would be invalid and writing for the film to conclude that he's more distraught by their deaths than failing Kylo. Unfortunately, that is my biggest problem with it.