ST The New Definitely Not Improved Even More Horrible Than The Last Two Rumors Thread

Yes, he did directly tell her. And, as per RJ, she “believed” him (not “knew he was right”). All Rey herself said was “They were nobody,” and PH already suggested that this was just her greatest fear. And anyway, JJ told us ages ago that Rey doesn’t know who her parents are: In response to a question re who Rey’s parents are, JJ responded "Rey's parents are not in Episode VII. So I can't possibly say in this moment who they are. But I will say it is something that Rey thinks about, too.“ (Bolding mine)

And if we are to believe Daisy, PH, and KK, then Rey’s parentage has never changed and isn’t flexible.

It was JJ saying that there’s more to the story of Rey’s parents in RoS. Which necessarily means that Rey’s past *does* matter.

 

Since Sith Lords seem to only be able to appear as ghosts in the place they died, maybe Palpatine is on the Death Star wreckage.

Maybe Kylo needs to die to end Palpatine.

Love it how Reylos try to make it all look like it's a resurrection story based on Rey's love.

 

I say the entire idea of bringing Han back in such a way will be popular for some but not for others. Also, the more we see this tied to previous events or characters the more outcry we will see because some want the story moving forward with new events and not relating them to previous ones. Like I have read a few times here now it seems to matter if you like the character or not as to whether it is ok for them to be involved from the past. I feel that way too but it is not a great way to make a film of this magnitude. I just hope these scenes are well done and don't take away from what is shaping up to be a really good story as I see it.

 

Here:

It looks like she knew deep down and he prompted it.
According to Rian Johnson, anyway. Which kind of contradicts TFA.

But I still think they could do anything with it using loopholes.
I'm expecting something tying her strongly to the main family story in TRoS, Rian Johnson seemingly didn't think it important. Or maybe he was throwing us off the scent?
Interviews seem to suggest actual meaningless origins were his genuine intention.

Oh, interesting. That sounds promising if true.

Thanks.
I remember that.
JJ does seem to think of the bigger story a lot more extensively.

 

JJ and Kathleen are swinging for the fences by trying to tie the entire 9 movie story together. I applaud them for the effort. It would be MUCH easier to just pop out a quick movie to cash in.

 

By the way I don't think it was posted here but Jason Ward also confirms in the recent patreon podcast that (according to his sources) Matt Smith is in the film and is playing a young Palpatine. Obviously no news on if this is in a flashback or if he somehow takes on a younger body to take on Rey and Ben in the climax. I suspect it's the latter myself just because we've never seen Palpatine at his most powerful and Rey and Ben fighting a different version of Palpatine would really differentiate the sequence from RotJ.

Jason also supported the Reddit leak about Kylo calling on an oracle of some kind for his feelings for Rey. That was stuffed in at the bottom of the podcast description. He had not been given the term "oracle" but he seems to feel it's the same thing. I'm not trying to get a debate going here, just posting the information.

 

There won't be significant outcry about seeing Han and Palpatine again in IX, just like there isn't outcry about seeing Lando again. This is the final film. Part of its purpose is to recap and curtain call vital characters and tie threads together. There would be far MORE outcry from fans if IX felt only like a standalone movie that wasn't much connected to the past.

 

Eh, I have yet to see any effort in trying to tie the saga other than “do more OT rehash”. Which includes bringing back the Emperor and rumors of another ROTJ-style story resolution.
Maybe I’m just being too cynical.

 

maybe it's like Rebels, young Palpatine is taken from the past to the present and that's how he's back.

 

So is it safe to say yet that whole "broadcast to the galaxy" rumour is more than likely bunk? Has anyone directly asked Jason about that?

 

Could the McGuffin be some kind of time portal or device that can cheat death by bringing dead people back to life by time travel to bring back their younger self?

This certainly fits in with Vader and Palpatine's obsession with cheating death. If they couldn't figure out how using the Force, maybe The Emperor pursued such a power via technology. That mirrors the death star as a technological terror as well...

Maybe JJ's line about "I can't believe McDiarmid's presence on set didn't get leaked" is a huge misdirect. Maybe McDiarmid hasn't worked on set and he's only doing the voice dubbing and Matt Smith will indeed play the younger Palpatine on screen with his voice swapped out.

McDiarmid did say his laughter from the teaser trailer was not from IX and it wasn't recorded specifically for the trailer. So LFL and JJ have been going through the archives for Palpatine audio...HMMMMM....Just for the trailer, or for the movie itself?

 

I believe the next MSW spoilers will be about Luke's role and Rey parentage...

 

Ok, this has got me very excited.

 

Id actually be kinda disappointed if they had Matt smith be Palpatine in the movie. It would reduce ians role down and i ain't really sure what Palpatine would do that Ian couldn't do in the role.

If it was for a flashback. now that would be interesting. even though i can't think where this flashback could possibly be from. maybe plagueis, but then at least the novel said it was around the time of episode 1 that the big events happened.

 

Opening scene? The Knights of Ren have already found the McGuffin from the beyond where Palpatine had laboratories and space stations unknown to the Rebels/Republic and even Vader....and we think Matt Smith is one of the KoR but he's actually revealed later to be Palpatine just posing as a KoR...

 

Me too! I was pretty giddy when I heard it. There were rumours that this was the case already but obviously hearing it from multiple sources is more reassuring. Palpatine is a wonderful, entertaining, powerful villain with massive stakes in the Skywalker drama and seeing him go toe to toe with Rey or Rey and Ben could be fantastic.



He exudes the right energy and I think he could pull off this role really well.

Obviously grain of salt like with all the recent spoilers, but it could be cool.

 

Who knows how long Matt would be in the film even if he was playing younger Palpatine.

Remember Von Sydrow in TFA.

 

It’s as if fans don’t understand that causality can be complex. Yes, Kylo can be primarily and personally responsible for the **** person he is and the **** things he’s done. That’s the proximate cause of his ****tiness. Himself. But slight levels of parental neglect can also have helped feed his ****** personality. He likely would’ve been a massive **** anyway, but the specifics of his childhood may have been one factor that increased the likelihood of his ****tiness spilling over into mass murdeousness. One of a number of background, or “ultimate” causal factors, as we say in the social sciences.

That doesn’t at all mean that Leia and Han are responsible for Ben becoming Master of the Knights of Repellent Dicks. There are just some things they did, or didn’t do, that may have fed that result. Just as there are many responsible and loving things they did that may have decreased the likelihood of him becoming a galactic douchebag.

But all the natural and environmental circumstances of his youth ultimately led to where it did. And the person most responsible for that is Ben Solo.

 

Answering this for real now...

It's been long said that Kylo thinks that he's doing the right thing, implying a moral justification he gives himself. This hasn't really been seen so far in the films and it is something I've seen people ask about before TLJ came out even. It's possible that IX will give Kylo's character more to work with in terms of his attempt to morally justify his actions. However, it is common for villains to have "moral justification" for their actions. Does Kylo's justify murdering his father and all the villagers at the beginning of TFA (as examples)? I think most viewers would think not. However, there could be a real threat that Ben originally thought he should do something about and the dark side is the only way sort of thing. TCW Mortis Arc had Anakin do that when the Son convinced him the dark side was the only way.

I wouldn't see that as retconning Kylo's motivations for killing Han as it wouldn't overwrite that he did it for the dark side and to convince Snoke (to pass a test). He knew what he "had to do" and forced himself to do it. So adding in some elaborate something behind the "I had to" isn't a retcon, but filling in a blank, IMO.

I don't understand why the bit about Han knowing Kylo would kill him isn't simply Jason's speculation/opinion? I thought TFA showed that Han didn't believe he could save Ben (the idea was so preposterous to him it seemed from his initial reaction to Leia's suggestion). However, since Leia believed it, then Han seemed to allow some hope - like maybe it actually IS possible? However, he generally still felt this deep uneasy dread and the scene of him leaving was played as a goodbye between him and Leia in a way. It's clear on Han's face before confronting Kylo (at least to me) that he's reluctant to do this because there's a good chance Kylo will kill him. However, he starts to hope when Kylo seems to be handing him the lightsaber. So I mean I just see a father who is more a cynic than not and whose gut instincts are generally to be trusted, putting aside his gut instincts for hope because saving his son is worth the risk. I don't see someone who knows that there is a great evil plan and Kylo will kill to stop it who has become a sacrifice (or something like that).

Unless Han's statement "there was too much Vader in him" is much more profound than I realize...

 

Sure Leia and Han may not have been the best parents, but they are undoubtedly good people.

Good people with resources and support at their disposal for their son.

Not to mention your uncle Luke is one of the most kind and loving people in the galaxy, with access to great wisdom and power.

All in all, Ben Solo was dealt a good hand and yet he still played himself.

 

I feel It's either going to be a flashback (something to do with Rey and Ben flashing around the galaxy with whatever weird new power they evoke in each other) or he'll physically be there. Villains taking on a younger form isn't uncommon in fantasy and I think a duel between Rey an 80-something year old man wouldn't be using Palpatine to his fullest potential. It would make perfect sense for him to somehow appear younger and stronger for the climactic final Force battle. I want to see Ian as well and I'm sure he'll have some wonderful scenes, but when it comes to any real fighting... hmm, I guess we'll see.

 

I don't know enough about the Plaguis novel but how older was Palpatine during his time with Plaguis?

 

Honestly I don't think you are being too cynical. Bringing back Palpatine and doing another Skywalker redemption (Even if they don't build another super weapon) does, at this time, just feel like a slight retelling of the OT. I've seen the OT and I am ready for new stories and characters (hence my interest in 'The Mandalorian'). I supported TFA because I thought they were using the familiar to transition us into the unfamiliar, into new stories...and if these rumors are true that is really not what's happening.

I will admit that part of me hopes this information is being misunderstood, miss represented or is an outright misdirection designed to keep fans guessing and hide the actual resolution of this film. For example, if Rey and Kylo defeat Palpatine only for them to still be at odds, and forced into one last battle against one another, I could live with that. Or, if Palpatine isn't the final threat, if his return is a massive con cooked up by people within the FO who no longer wish to serve under Kylo Ren, I could get behind that. I could even get behind a scenario where they find a younger version of Palpatine towards the end, only to discover this clone has NONE of the previous Palpatines' memories or motivations. Oh he has the power...but beyond that he is a new person, separate from his genetic template. I could absolutely see Kylo Ren deciding he needs to die, where as Rey feels you can't kill someone for the crime of existing, and they, again, come to blows.

Those are my thoughts on the subject.

 

The Matt Smith rumour makes sense IMO. I know there was talk of him playing the CGI alien but that would be a waste.

 

Wow, if anything speaks to the (in some respects) post-Christianity of the contemporary western world, it is narrowness with which the possibility of redemption is viewed. Purely from socio-religious perspective. On the coattails of the Easter Triduum it would seem to be fitting to point out that at the heart of Christianity's theological tradition, humanity committed deicide (the killing of Christ) and yet even this does not place anyone beyond redemption, in fact, by a divine reversal, this crime (quam nefas!) is actually the vehicle of redemption. At least in the Catholic side of the Christian tradition, the only irredeemable act is to refuse to redemption, final despair or what is called the sin against the Holy Spirit, and species of pride.

On the other hand, that same Catholic theological tradition, in distinction both from Protestantism and in a certain sense, Orthodoxy, has a deep sense of the distinction of redemption, by which one is restored to communion with God, and satisfaction, by which makes recompense, at least proportional recompense, for the evil one has committed. Hence the expansion of lists of penitential manuals in the middle ages and the elaboration of the doctrine of purgatory, to account for God's justice alongside God's mercy, so that the redeemed could actually be understood, by grace, to also be truly just.

The hagiographical tradition (writing about saints), east and west, bears witness to this distinction. In fact, even as far Acts of the Apostles, the presentation of St. Paul, who approved of the murder of St. Stephen the Protomartyr, which has Passion like tropes, and Paul's conversion and then unceasing evangelical mission present a kind of prototype for the tropes of futures many models of future saints, from a deicide to an evangelical penitent.

How many, when calling Kylo "irredeemable" really mean "incapable of making satisfaction"? For what is essentially a space fairy tale, what is so unique about Kylo that makes him particularly irredeemable set against the background of a good chunk of western (and eastern) religion (and philosophy) that would inhibit his turn towards the Good? Or rather, do most object that Kylo could in no dramatically acceptable way make satisfaction? Or is there a uniquely contemporary determinism that regards moral conversion as impossible past a certain point? That would be a frightening message. Not that some are committed to evil until there very end, but that at a certain point in this life moral choices or convictions can't be corrected.

As to the question of Han, I have seen no mention that what Han does is apologize to Kylo. When Han comes to Kylo offering a free return to family and he kills him, the efficacy of Han's sacrifice doesn't have to be conceived as some kind of submission to an occult action on Han's part. Han loves his son to the point of being killed by him and even loves him in being killed by him. This has been pivotal for the ST. I broke Kylo. It revealed to Kylo Snoke's spite by both Han's words (in TFA) and Snoke's own cruelty (in TLJ). It has driven Kylo the summit of the First Order and yet also revealed Kylo to himself, at least his weakness and his lack of satisfaction in darkness. If Han returns and forgives Kylo, it may well be the final reflection of the emptiness of evil and the endurance of goodness/love precisely because it is unearned. In this way, Han's death actually crux on which Kylo's conversion turns, and death that in some way, given the recent leaks, transcends space and time, and even to embrace the same act of self-less love which his father offered for him. In the end, his father's heart will live in him, if Kylo does indeed die in some form, but not a heart of weakness but strength which the selfishness and incurvedness of evil cannot comprehend.