***The Official Obi-Wan Kenobi Eps II & III Discussion and Speculation Thread: Part 5***

I read it, and part of it disgusts me. Probably the only reason it's really in there is because Boba Fett has become this ultra-cool character.

So, Jedi Knight Obi-Wan can't deflect blaster bolts from *1* blaster, but Padawan Obi-Wan could from several battle droids while doing a whole lot of other things?

Maybe we should call Ep2 "The Demise of Obi-Wan Kenobi's Jedism and Stuff".

 

Yeah, I like that title Amidolee.(Not that I like the cause of it!).

(Just going on the assumption of reality, they may be fakes):
First, it is rather a cool scene on the one hand. Lots of action, some neat stunts. Rain. It's actually great...BUT NOT FOR OBI-WAN!!! It's a glorified fist fight. For goodness sakes, he can't defeat one measly freakin' bounty hunter? He can't even hold onto his lightsaber!?!? (Just for the record on the storyboards I saw which include #9, it doesn't say Obi-Wan has trouble deflecting the bolts)

This is exactly what I was worried about. How did Obi-Wan go from the best of the best to the most average Jedi we are probably going to get to know well? It's one thing to make him 2nd best, it's another thing to put down somewhere slightly above Jar Jar Binks(slight exagerration but you know I mean What the blank is Lucas' problem? Heck, had Han Solo not been 1st. encased in carbonite and 2nd. blind upon release, he could have done better against Boba Fett than Obi-Wan apparently is going to do against Jango.

The only thing that could save it is if possibly Obi-Wan practically had to get up from his death bed to do this--I don't know, having been infected with some rare disease that normally kills its victims, having been hit by a falling meteorite, something like that--and so wasn't exactly up to snuff. Which is quite doubtful.

What are some other opinions out there? Anyone want to make me feel better about this?

 

Naw Ibo, I will try to make you feel better. After reading the scene description, I think that IF if is genuine, and that's a big if, then it is an older storyboard. I base this on the lack of originality. Almost every move described is taken from another movie.

A few of the more blatant examples:
* 39-Jango traps Obi-Wans foot
40-Jango spins Obi-Wan (in mid air) and brings him down face first onto the ground.
(This is directly from the training fight between Morpheus and Neo in The Matrix)

* 58-Jango takes off, still tied to Obi-Wan
59-Obi-Wan is dragged along the ground.
60-Low angle behind Obi-Wan who is still being dragged
61-High abgle next to Jango who is still flying
62-Obi-Wan rolls to one side as he is still being dragged.
63-Obi-Wan manages to roll around one of the pillars.
64-Obi-Wan jumps up and wraps the cable around the pillar.
65-Jango crashes to the ground
66-The jetpack shoots off on its own into the side of a building.
(Tieing the cable you are restrained with to a sold structure... Too many movies to give credit to one)

* 71-Almost over the complete edge, Jango activates claws on the side of his forearms.
72-Jango digs his "claws" into the platform.
(Straight out of Predator 2)

There are more ripoffs, but I think these are the most obvious.

So as I said, this might be an early storyboard, but I cannot believe that it is the final version.

The same is true for the VIP scene (I'm not getting detailed because it really doesn't relate that much to Obi-Wan). Believable scene concept, yes. Still needs a lot of work, yes. Final version, absolutely not.

 

Amidolee, LOL or they could call it "Obi Wan and Jar Jar's Excellent Adventure" You're right though, the event in the story board is totaly inconsistent with what we already know about Obi Wan...that he could deflect blaster bolts in his sleep. Of course, it was pointed out that the notes on the boards themselves never actually said he was having trouble with that.
Naw Ibo, I don't know if I can make you feel any better, but you may be on to something, by bringing up the fact that Obi Wan may be ill or hurt. If these are real, I have to ask, why is Obi Wan the first to draw his weapon? Why does he apear to be ATTACKING? It makes me wonder what Jango has done to warrant Obi Wan coming after him, sabre drawn. Maybe there was actually a scuffle before this, where Jango gets in a cheap blow and thinks Obi Wan is finished. If that's the case, maybe Obi Wan is hurt, and that's why he is struggling a bit against a mere bounty hunter.
Thanks to Jedi Master Matthew for pointing out the similarities to some other films. George may like to borrow from films, but I don't think he'd take ideas from more recent ones. Someone else also mentioned, somewhere on here, that the arena scene was a lot like a story from one of the Jedi Council comics.(not sure if that's the right title)

 

Remember, it's not clear if those storyboards are real or fake.

But I have to admit, it would make a GREAT scene!

 

Thanks people. Feeling better already. Of course who the heck knows what's what with the storyboards anyway. My first thought was that they were discarded or much changed scenarios. They got to the storyboard stage and then GL decided to go with something different while filming. Scenes are added, subtracted, drastically changed all the time during films, so it wouldn't be out of the question. IF they are connected with LFL at all, I think that someone just got their hands on discarded sequences. I have no doubt something similar MAY occur, Obi-Wan fighting some Fett(Jango or otherwise) in the rain possibly even on Coruscant, but I don't think it will go down quite like that. Obi-Wan the Jedi Knight having difficult deflecting a few blaster bolts, my foot!! ;-)

That was probably the first thing that bothered me(seeing as I hadn't read to the point of seeing Obi-Wan's supposed difficulty defeating Fett)--that he came up attacking. It's like huh, why is his lightsaber lit? So R2RNOT could be onto something(that is saying the storyboards are real, which is a BIG *if*). This Fett character could have already done something pretty bad. Why would Obi-Wan have been after him in the first place otherwise? I still don't think the lightsaber would be lit upon approach though. For one thing, it kind of gives too much warning of one's approach to have that thing blazin'. Obi-Wan isn't stupid(or at least he didn't used to be).

Jedi Master Matthew, I thought alot of those actions sounded familiar. I've never seen Matrix but I couldn't help thinking this fight sounds like something out of the Matrix. The whole thing does read like an amalgam of other action sequences sort of *mashed* into one scene.

 

it would suck major arse if obi-wan does have a tough time fighting a mere bounty hunter, i mean c'mon!! this guy went head to head with darth maul and lived!! do you think this fett character could do that?? hells no!!

and yea, it would be really cheap if they made the fight scene like the matrix!! i doubt they would do that to us...

 

Oh, there is something they left off the scene!

OBI-WAN reaches up and rips off the face mask to reveal ANAKIN!

Yeah, that was the first thing that threw me off was Obi-Wan attacking! I didn't think Jedi attacked, because that's a little dark side!

I loved the "Obi-Wan and Jar Jar's Adventures" theme Of course, that would end up Obi-Wan slicing-and-dicing Jar Jar after dissing the Force and not being able to talk right ;-p

 

Everyone has been so caught up in "Are they real? Did Lucasfilm really send out c & d's?::little Ani sniffle here::What is going to happen to us now?" that I haven't really heard much discussion of what is actually happening in the boards. I wonder if we here on the OOWKE2&3 thread are the only ones concerned about or at least questioning how far the (formerly) mighty have apparently fallen? He killed a Sith in the last film. Or even the stuff like Obi-Wan running up lightsaber already lit. If I was a little braver I'd start a thread or bring it up in an existing one, but I'm only brave here, my little home on the JC.

I have to say, I may have had my fears of Obi-Wan's portrayal but I never really thought he'd have fallen that far---has a hard time defeating a bounty hunter. It's a bit more disappointing than I had suspected(unless we get the deathbed/meteorite scenario prior;-).

 

Naw, I agree...it's time to disect what's going on in them! After all, it's looking like they are real...although, whether or not these scenes end up in the movie is still up to debate. I've noticed a few people try to bring something up, but it all gets lost in the arguing over the authenticity of the things.
I'm sure there is a logical reason why Obi Wan seems to be the one attacking, and why he is having trouble with Jango. We all know it's illogical for a Jedi with Obi Wan's proven skills to not be able to easily take care of a mere bounty hunter. I still think that maybe Jango, or someone else, got in a sort of "sucker punch" against Obi Wan and he's still maybe stunned from that encounter. This would mean that this is part of a scene that's been going on, and explain why Obi Wan's sabre is drawn. We've had the rumor where a bounty hunter attempts to assassinate someone on Courrascant. The select pic of Padme comes to mind, also a scene from Jedi Apprentice(I know I know EU) where there is an attempt on Yoda's life. If Jango is working for Palpatine, it kind of makes sense that he would want Yoda out of the way...and we'd get to see "why Yoda is called a master."(or something like that)
Another question is why is little Boba there? Is daddy already training him in the family business? I don't really think he was a Padawan, but maybe he posed as one to get into the temple.

That's about all I can come up with right now

 

Why is it so hard to believe that a Jedi (even one as great as Obi-Wan) would have some trouble fighting someone who's well armed and very skilled?

Qui-Gon LOST his battle with Maul. Obi-Wan ALMOST lost to Maul. Maul knocked Obi-Wan down HOW many times during the TPM fight? Two or three?

My point is... no one is invisible. If someone were firing at me at very close range, I'd have trouble fending off the blows, too -- especially if I was out in the open with no cover.

And who knows? Maybe Obi-Wan was tired or hurt.

Don't get me wrong -- I love Obi-Wan and think he's the best there is. But there's no way Lucas is going to make everything he does look simple. That just wouldn't be exciting.

 

Did anyone seen the pics from the French Insider? Oh, my, Lord, Ewan looks very hot! It's a much better pic than those spy photos!

If Jango had say, three blaster rifles firing at Obi, I'm sure the Jedi would have trouble. It just seems that GL is going to appease the Boba-Fans out there. *sigh*

 

Here's a link to that behind the scenes photo of Ewan and stunt coordinator Nick Gillard:

http://perso.club-internet.fr/willow/E2_0006_2.jpg

Ewan's hair looks different -- or maybe it's just the angle of the photo. It doesn't look long in the back. Oh well -- he looks GREAT anyway!



(Is it just me or does Ewan seem a little thin? Maybe it's the black pants.)

 

His hair probably was shorter then. Isn't this a pic from *pre*-production, when Ewan was getting trained before filming actually started? So at the time the photo was taken he was likely still growing out his hair to the length it will be in the film.

 

Lucas isn't going to make everything look simple, nor would I or anyone probably want him too, but the point is Maul was a Sith, a well trained Force user. Someone who *ought* give a Jedi or even two of them heaps o' trouble. Like the Jedi themselves, Maul was, as someone on another thread called them, "a weapon of mass destruction"(of sorts) in and of himself. Jango is a bounty hunter, fine from a distance, but up close no Jedi worth his weight in salt should have trouble(or little trouble) beating him, IMO.

Not nearly as much as Obi-Wan is apparently having according to those storyboards. He and Qui-Gon fended off dozens of battle droids shooting at them without much trouble. Admittedly droids aren't the best but if you've got a bunch of them after you at once, I'd say it's more difficult than one person. Not to mention the "fist fight" part of it--experienced Force-user vs. non Force user should = not much of a contest going by what we've seen of the Jedi's skills so far. It just doesn't quite seem to fit the characters. For example, all Obi-Wan'd have to do to get the blaster away is Force pull it away from him, what's with this grappling for the gun?

If you are going to give a character difficulty you shouldn't take a step backwards in their skill level when if anything they should be *much* improved. You have to give them difficulty with something commensurate with their experience. The main problem is, like Amidolee said, it seems like it's something done to appease the Fett fans. Remember the Golden Rule, "Lucas' indecisions become Obi-Wan's sins" or in this case his apparent temporary decrease of ability as compared to what we saw in TPM. If he wants to put something in he can't explain except by weakening of a character, it's going to be Obi-Wan doing it. That's why Mace Windu gets to look like Superman, taking on Fett and creatures all at once and winning and Obi-Wan can't even beat Jango. I'm almost surprised the seeker attached to the ship, at least that's something positive out of it. They can track the ship so Mace can look cool taking Jango out while Obi-Wan is probably off someplace else getting his butt kicked.

That's why I said, the only thing that makes it acceptable would be what I jokingly called the "deathbed/meteorite" scenario. In other words, he's already been weakened some other way, like you suggested. I mean, if he's been struck temporarily blind, then what he's doing is pretty cool, right?. So anyway, in thinking about it earlier today, that's what I decided happened. Until further notice, I am assuming Obi-Wan has been struck temporarily blind prior to this scene. LOL!! Hey, Han was temporarily blind in ROTJ, Lucas might use it again;-). Besides, the scenes(both of them) do seem rather derivative in a way even Lucas usually isn't.

Ewan is looking thin. He's looking very fit. Definitely if that other spy pic is any indication, oh baby!!(SO have we come up with a good excuse to get Obi-Wan at least out of his tunic yet...) I kind of wish they'd left his hair like that for Obi-Wan instead of having the extensions, but there ya go. Amidolee---Ewan is looking so hot, I hope they have hoses to spray the female audience down with when it opens

 

He does look thin, doesn't he? But, oh, where's the bloody hose when you need it??? I would absolutely love George if he had left Ewan's style at what is in the photo. But, no, we can't let Ewan be the center of attention. We have to see what a super-Jedi-star out dear Snot-nosed Brat is! :-(

Hell, if Obi-Wan was an actually person, I'd be pretty ticked! No wonder why he decided to isolate himself on a desert planet!

 

Well even if the story boards are true, I think all you of the Kenobi worshippers can take solace in this idea. If Mace Windu does in fact kick butt according to the storyboards, then he will most likely be alive in Episode III. Therefore, his death will almost definitely be at the hands of Anakin. Then, everything will come down to whether GL uses his original idea and has Kenobi defeat Anakin in the "The Duel." If GL retains this idea, then Kenobi comes out looking like the most skilled fighter and probably the third strongest Force user to Yoda and Palpatine. If you are hoping to see Kenobi in all his glory, then I would presume that this is the best case scenario. I can't imagine GL making him more powerful than Yoda or Sidious.

 

Yoda said the Dark Side is not more powerful, remember? It's EASIER. Therefore, I don't consider Sidious to be more powerful than the most skilled Jedi.

The fact that Obi-Wan stays with the Light Side means he's taking the high road. It's HARDER.

And you could look at it this way, too: fighting off such evil while working HARDER could be seen by some as having MORE power than those who take the easy path (the Sith). Maybe that's why some call Obi-Wan the greatest Jedi ever.

 

That is an excellent point ObiWanJane.

I agree that the relative power of a Jedi versus a Sith is up for debate. However, Yoda didn't say that the Light Side was stronger either.

If Yoda and Kenobi were the most powerful Force users, then I believe critics would have more ammunition when arguing that the two of them should have battled the Sith in the open. Even if you argue that Yoda is number one and Kenobi is number three, you still have to wonder why they didn't have the chance to create a scenario where they could battle the Sith Lords two on two, without the Empire's advantages being involved.

The chink in the armor right now is that Yoda is not a fighter, he is a teacher. However, GL seems to be getting rid of this idea as well.

 

No I would't imagine Obi-Wan is more "powerful" technically either. We know Yoda is the best Jedi and I assumed certainly Palpy was stronger otherwise why the heck would Yoda and Obi-Wan wait around for 20 years. Still, it's not much of a consolation that his claim to fame and prime example of talent is that he doesn't quite defeat Vader. Which will most likely be put off to an earthquake, ground slipping from under Anakin's feet, Anakin gets distracted by something else, etc. "victory" in a fight Obi-Wan probably doesn't even want to be in.

This isn't just a matter of having a favorite character. It's about things implied or outright shown in the storyline. He beat a Sith Apprentice last film. It was difficult, he could have lost, but the point is he didn't and he beat him when he hadn't even been conferred his knighthood yet and under great emotional stress.

In the OT Obi-Wan Kenobi is getting Leia's message "This is our most desperate hour....Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope". Tarkin when he is finally convinced it could very well be Kenobi is quite adamant that he has to be stopped, "He can't be allowed to escape". Yet he can't beat this non-Force using bounty hunter in a glorified fist fight? This is him, at the time of his prime. We don't have another 5-10 years of development, EP II and III are it, they are pretty much relatively the same place on the time line, give or take a year. For one thing, Fett has armor, why would Obi-Wan hit him? Good way to break your hands. No attempt even to use the Force to get the guns away from Fett, he grapples with him for it? (It's starting to remind me of Han Solo's loss of personality and brain cells in ROTJ.)

I know I have complained loudly as each thing came to light but I've basically accepted Obi-Wan's gradual loss of status after each initial blowing off of steam and found ways to make it palatable, but this, if true, this is just too bloody much. He loses a fight with a freakin' non-Force using bounty hunter having apparently not inflicted a bit of damage on said individual, other than a busted jet pack. And he apparently forgets about his Force abilities because he just doesn't even use them on this guy or even as defense. And his common sense got left at the Temple Door as well as he engages in hand-to-hand combat with a guy wearing armor. Then there is the little matter of being butter fingers with his lightsaber...

So as of now, temporary blindness is my theory until proven otherwise;-).

 

naw ibo, I always enjoy reading your posts of devotion to Kenobi. I think you are looking at this fight from the perspective that you just want Kenobi to kick Fett's butt completely.

If you ask me, Kenobi didn't lose the fight. He just failed to capture or kill Fett. Fett ran away. In fact, Kenobi lost his lightsaber and Fett still wasn't able to defeat him. Jango had so many gadgets at his disposal that he looked like a walking Swiss army knife.

 

LOL!!! A walking Swiss Army Knife. I like that. Actually the idea that all Obi-Wan had was his lightsaber whilst Jango was a space age Inspector Gadget had crossed my mind, but still, few are actually going to look at it that way--for the most part all they are going to see is that Obi-Wan can't even capture this Jango Fett. Thus Fett's flag is raised a bit more and Obi-Wan's is yet again, lowered. I mean, us Kenobi-caholics actually do have reason to be disappointed unlike most of the other fanboy/girl things because there are literally years worth of quotes from Lucas himself, from "canon"(novelizations/radioplays/screenplays) sources and certainly stated, hinted or implied within the films themselves that Obi-Wan, a major character, had certain characteristics and talents of a pretty outstanding quality. It isn't just stuff made up or imagined by people with delusions of granduer. They were fair expectations which have apparently been blown all to heck. It's kind of hard not to be a bit put out by his constantly lowering status.

 

PS:: JEDI SWOOSH--RE wanting Obi-Wan kick Fett's butt completely. Actually that isn't it. I wasn't even thinking along those lines. If Fett needs to get away for the plot, he needs to get away. The way it reads, I just don't think Obi-Wan should be in this situation at all. If someone has to fight a Fett and "not win" then it ought to be someone else:out::foot stamp::. I don't know who, but someone else. Or better yet, just let Fett get away, clean. "Oops, just missed him..."

Hey, I just realized this parallels the scene in ESB a little bit. A Fett gets away.

 

y'all are so right, there is no way in hell obi-wan should be having trouble with one fargin bounty hunter, no matter who it is.

and why does everyone just laud yoda so much? i havent actually seen that guy do anything that makes him deserve this great respect he gets...now, i'm sure the guy is just wunderful and all that, but jeez! some think he is like some kinda all powerful being or something---->we havent see him do a damned thing...yet? now obi-wan on the other hand...:::smiles:: well, we know he's the man, he's proven it time and time again!! yea, we hear one doesnt have to prove his greatness, but at one point or another we're gonna have to see it for him to actually be the ****, ya know?

 

We've seen Yoda lift an X-Wing. Imagine the effect an object with that mass being thrown at them would have on a group of people (even ones wearing armor).
Or, picture this scenerio: Bad guys are running down a corridor. Yoda closes his eyes. The walls slam together, crushing the bad guys between them.

As for the storyboards...
I have already voiced my belief that the storyboards are fake. Anyone who owns the widescreen Episode I has seen real Episode I storyboards up close, so making your own for a concocted Episode II scene isn't that hard.
Additionally, both depict little scenes from other movies fused together and them projected into the SW universe. The one thing that everyone - even people who don't like SW - say about GL is that he is a very imaginative person. I just cannot see why he would so blatantly steal from recent films. I described this in detail previously.

I ask you, who is still alive in ANH? Obi-Wan: yes. Yoda: yes. Mace & rest of JC: no. Jango: no.
Obi-Wan didn't become a General in the Clone Wars by getting his butt kicked. He didn't survive the Jedi Purge by being a fool. That's what he and Mace are both described as. Sure, Mace wins and Obi-Wan doesn't, but they both act really foolishly and recklessly. Yoda: "Adventure, Heh. Excitement, Heh. A Jedi craves not these things. You are reckless." Obi-Wan has an excuse for being reckless in Episode I: he's still a padawan. Mace is a Master on the JC. There's no way he would be so reckless.

Look at this:
2-Dooku and Poggle talk and watch the arena. Unnoticed by them, there is a flash far behind them and one of the Lesser guards drops to the ground.
3-A hand taps Dooku's shoulder.
4-Mace Windu reveals himself with one hand and with the other keeps Jango at bay with his lightsaber.
5-View of the Stadium as hundreds of Jedi enter from all passageways. All ready for confrontation with their lightsabers ignited.
6-Dooku reveals the droid army awaiting the jedi. Mace reacts as the droids (battledroids, destroyer droids and superdroids (which look like a cross between battledroid and stormtrooper, very big)) emerge from the dark passageway behind him.
7-High angle of the VIP box and droids are coming from all entrances. Mace is surrounded. Jango backs out of firing range.

That is absurd!! If Mace wanted to kill them he would have just done it - not tap the guys shoulder to indulge some sort of arrogance. A seasoned Jedi Master would not act this way. Even based solely on how we have seen Mace act in TPM, this is totally out of character.

I am absolutely convinced these were written by some fanboy.

Can't stress enough: Obi-Wan is certainly more able to defeat a Fett than a nearly-blind Han Solo!