The Official Star Wars: The Clone Wars: No Prisoners Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

finished thebook liked it. t had some boring moments but all inall was very good,

i have had my criticisms of KT, but i have to say she did a couple really great things here]

she has redeemed a broken charcater in Callista,-thank you. and she is the best star wars author in writing battle scenes on larger scales, as well as smaller ones.

the altisian order... i like it a lot. if anakin would have joined up there would be a slight chance of him not ever becoming darth vader. how sad. but good for him though. sad on two levels

 

It depends how or what one wishes to discuss. If I want to examine the characters from an In Universe perspective(which the majority of the time is what I try to do) then the characters and their actions get discussed. Of course the writers are ever present but for most purposes talking about "I don't like how author X writes Chewie" doesn't get us very far.

It's the suspension of disbelief.

 

Also, if I discuss this book, it is easy to say "I can't stand how Traviss portrays Padmé, the whole beauty mask thing was stupid".

But with something as big as a many book series written collectively, where the plot and the actions of the characters are created in committee, OOU blame isn't easy to assign. You just can't criticise one author for making Jacen turn dark or whatever.

 

I think it's just you. Altis outright tells Anakin that the attachment he's feeling is unhealthy and dangerous. Anakin just refuses to listen.

 

Not only that but it's clear that his attachment is already of the unhealthy variety as he can't even imagine a universe without Padme. In a way; he's predisposed to the type of fear that Sideous later uses on him because he can't even conceive of a universe without Padme. It's clear that Altis, and his students, have been taught a very outwardly looking worldview and that they clearly understand that flesh is passing. Anakin still hasn't let go of his mother, let alone the one person he truly and openly (to her, at least) loves.

 

I don't really think he did either. It was my clumsy attempt to say Jacen's fall shadows Anakin's. LOTF being the arc in which we see him turn like the prequels are the arc in which we see Anakin turn.

My point is though (not made very well apparently! ), I think Karen Traviss is criticized for weird things. People will probably take that as a reason to start giving arguments or examples to validate their criticisms, but I am probably biased since I like her as an author and therefore don't get as upset when she does something "wrong".

 

Is it just me or are people making Padmé more and more giggly and silly?

 

With the exception of Karen Miller in Wild Space, yes. Padmé always gets very little 'screentime' in most books, because she can't go "adventuring" and writing about the Senate probably isn't thrilling. In Traviss' books she's really portrayed like either a clueless, easily manipulated pawn in the TCW novelization, and now as some kind of cross between a reputation conscious airhead and a noble frontier wife, seeing her husband off to war. Aside from Labyrinth of Evil and Wild Space I can't remember any book where her scenes are more than cameos, and she isn't reduced to "love interest".

 

I'd love to see a Padme centered book. I do think her pregnancy during the Clone Wars makes her inclusion difficult at times. In general I suspect people would not be comfortable with Padme out on dangerous adventures while with child.

That said the CWA series has given us a couple of Padme centric episodes.

 

The series has been very nice to her, that's why I was referring only to the books.^^

But yes, a book about Padmé would be cool. Maybe something that also throws some light on the interesting political system of Naboo?

 

The problem was when she teamed up with Lonely Planet to do "Padme's Rap", which has seen her sidelined by the movers-and-shakers of the Galaxy.

 

Those episodes seemed painfully out of place though, and one was Padme blundering into a warzone and getting captured. Actually, the other was Padme blundering into a Sep base and getting captured and exposed to a toxin.

The whole idea of a planetary Senator just hoping on a starship with her droid and cruising into warzones is crazy, and yes, that goes for Bail too. he has no business endangering troopers who have to rescue him just because he wants in on the action. It's a shame that these characters were cast as Senators and not in a more action orientated role, but what's wrong with Padme simply being a strong woman with a career and not a dangerous fighter or whatever?

Is the problem a lack of female characters across the board so we look to Padme to be the token female? That calls for more female characters, not trying to jam a character into situations she shouldn't be in.

Also, Padme wasn't in the novelization of TCW movie. Her part was cut for space. The most that we got was an epigraph reporting that she was safe.

Traviss and other authors have used plenty of female characters, but I'd argue that Padme isn't a character that should be included in adventures just because she's there.

Her role is as a Senator and wife to Anakin, and there's nothing wrong with that, and I don't think seeing her being allowed to be a woman who loves her husband and likes a bit of tea or a beauty treatment now and then to be that damaging to the character.

She comes off as horrifically out of place when she shows up on adventures and in field missions. Leia actually makes sense because her life has been about being a secret freedom fighter, but Padme isn't Leia, and while I do think interesting stories could be told with Padme, I don't think authors should be under any obligation to show her as something she's not (she's not a Jedi, soldier, merc, or anything of the sort, she's a Senator).

The same goes for Bail. I have a problem with him being thrown into adventures as well because that's not what the character is about.

 

Well, she was 'blundering' there because she was on a diplomatic mission, and that mission included false information so she would end up there.

Padmé is a dangerous fighter. She has proven that time and again. But it isn't her job, I agree, and I don't think anybody would insist it is. But I would like to point out that there is a difference between "going on combat missions" and "sitting in an appartment and waiting for her husband to drop by". It would be nice to see her doing her job, in the Senate occasionally. Besides, Senators are sent to negotiate and so on all the time, not just Bail or Padmé.

Yes, she was in there. There is a scene with Palpatine manipulating her to go to Ziro, and then she calls Jabba to save Anakin's life.

YEs, it is damaging. NOt that she loves him, but to abuse her for sitcom level gags. The GFFA isn't earth. Anakin musing about his wife making coffee like any "Coruscant Housewife" isn't fitting.

Bail Organa is the man who, when he saw the Jedi Temple in flames, jumped into his speeder and ran there to see if he could do something. He took his ship into the galaxy to look for survivors, no matter what the danger to his person. I can't find such a man out of place on the frontlines of story where he tries help the Republic. Padmé doesn't have to go on missions, aside from the occasional Senate tasks, she just shouldn't be reduced to waiting for her husband.

 

I thought she was quite giggly and silly in Wild Space, too. That was the first time I read her as a fluffy character and did not like it.

 

@Elori: Well, then we'll just have to agree to disagree, I didn't think so.^^

 

What sitcom-level gags, though? She's wearing some beauty thing? I don't think she's being "abused" by being shown to take care of her skin. And the Coruscant housewife bit wasn't about demeaning her into some quiet little housewife -- it was about Anakin realizing, "Oh, god, we could almost be normal. We have some kind of a shot at a life outside our high-pressure jobs that keep our marriage secret."

I just don't see what's supposed to be frivolous about her character here. What's she supposed to do, spend all her time kicking people in the nuts? Rage about how she can't stand today's standards for feminine beauty? Tell Anakin to make his own damn coffee, that sexist pig! Showing Anakin and Padme having a relatively comfortable home life isn't the same thing as sticking Padme in the kitchen, or denying that she has an important and powerful job as a senator. I'm just baffled as to what's weak or frivolous or demeaning or offensive about that.

 

And Padme sought out her husband on Mustafar to see if what Obi-Wan said was true. I don't disagree. There are instances where Padme can and should be shown as being active in diplomatic missions and the like. I think in this book she wasn't actively involved in the main plot, except for the fact that Anakin wasn't originally with the group because he wanted to be with his wife.

The "like any Corsucant housewife" bit was more to show what Anakin and Padme were missing by choosing the jobs and roles in life that they had both chosen. With Padme, there simply wasn't any POV that could have shown her and no reason to show her. Would it have been better had she discussed her day at the Senate? I don't know. Anakin yearns for a regular life with a wife that he can walk down the street with in daylight and have it not be dangerous to both their careers.

If there were no other strong women in the novels I'd readily agree with you, but we see Padme as a strong woman in other media and we also see her as strong in other ways. In this novel there simply wasn't any reason to focus on her or her job in the Senate, and putting the shoe horn to her to get her into a story that doesn't involve her just to check off characters is wrong too.

I don't disagree that Padme could very much do with some more exposure and better writing, but I don't know that this book, or many of the books or comics, are that place.

There's some great intrigue stories that could be done with Padme, but sadly we haven't gotten them yet, imho.

I get where you're coming from, but I also don't want to see characters pushed into stories where they're just out of place, and I don't see what all she could have done in this story unless there was an entirely new POV done where she argued the case for intervention in JanFathal, but then we get the problem of having to show her worrying over Anakin, which could be said to paint her as the worried housewife even at work.

I don't think there's any easy answers with Padme, and I thought Bail was a little out of place doing what was essentially intel and fact-finding missions in dangerous territory in WILD SPACE. Those are characters that are tough to work into many of the off-Corsucant stories, imho, although I do agree with you on the general principle of what you've said.

 

I honestly don't want to make a violently feminist point here. There is nothing wrong with Padmé loving Anakin, and with her only making short appearances in stories that focus on things happening far from where she is. I really don't want to make the point that she should have an action role in every story or anything.

I also don't mind that she just has a cameo appearance in No Prisoners. I just felt the "beauty mask scene" did not fit her character and just shoehorned in a gag that has been used ad nauseam in sitcoms and a certain category of comedies that are at odds with the Star Wars feel. The same thing with the "housewife". It isn't that she can't make coffee (although she might get 3PO to make it). But why should Anakin think that way about it? He grew up with his mother, and later in the Jedi Temple, why should he consider a 1950s marriage as the normal standard?

The GFFA just isn't Earth. It's different, from the stuff Senators do in the course of their job to the usual kind of family a character would consider standard. Orn Free Taa has several concubines, for example. Sullustans have several husbands. What constitutes a scandal on earth shouldn't really cause even a raised eyebrow in a place as cosmopolitic as Coruscant. That was the point I was trying to make, that Anakin and Padme were settled with reactions and values that felt out of place there, because they relied on gender roles as defined by earth standards.

 

I'm great with that! It just bothers me that when we do see her, it's for only a few pages, if even that; her scenes aren't without "giggling" which, in my opinion, is extremely un-Padmé like. I don't know why that bothers me, but she's never been presented as the hair-flipping type and I get frustrated seeing her portrayed like that.

 

If I'm reading your comments right, it seems you're frustrated with the way she's being presented in the small cameo she does make in No Prisoners.

I can totally understand that frustration.

But to respond to the coffee thing in particular, I don't think he considers it a standard. In this scene, if I remember right, he is admiring Padmé and is blown away (lite version) by the normal, every day things she does (like make coffee) when her Day Job consists of such, literally, wordly considerations. He's marveling at the small things she does that really are of no consequence and shouldn't be a big deal other than she is a larger than life political figure fighting for universal issues. But because they can't live a normal marriage, the small things do become big issues when they shouldn't. (like omg Padmé making me coffees!!)

Their marriage is surrounded by larger, philosophical issues, Anakin is in the middle of a Jedi prophecy; the tiny details of life, that Padmé does things like making coffee for him is a reminder that were they not part of so many things larger than themselves, they might be able to live a life filled with more mundane things--welcome relief for very busy, very demanding lives. He wouldn't notice it in the way he does, I think, if they were allowed that.

I think the coffee scene can be read through an Earth-tinted glases, but I don't think it's necessarily that. Traviss could have picked anything, but I don't think there was any stereotypical intent on having Padmé make her coffee with Anakin watching all wistfully.

What he wants through the coffee scene, is what he wants throughout the whole book: to have their marriage be so forbidden, to un-make it as a secret, to be able to live like normal people because normal people don't have to hide their love.

 

If I remember correctly though Bail was contacted because the rebel faction didn't trust anyone else. They put their trust in him and Bail honored their wishes keeping everything close to the vest, so to speak. There was a reason he ended up on the quest in Wild Space, that why I thought it worked. Because Bail was known for his honor and loyalty while many other politicians were not.

 

@Elori: Oh, I understand the sentiment in the scene. I just don't think it is expressed very fortunately. Anakin is thinking:

"So, there's an ordinary moment. A Senator, a queen, a woman who can change the galaxy, making caf like any Coruscant housewife. Why not? Isn't that what life really is?"

And why should he, being the son of a single mother and later raised in a monkish order, express the feeling "finally we have time to do something mundane" like that?

 

There's something really odd about Padme and Anakin in the respect that both of them long for a normality that no one has any real idea consists of. Padme is a child prodigy turned Liberal Reform Icon that became a Senator at a ridiculously young age, Anakin is a child prodigy of mechanics and electronics turned aesthetic warrior monk.

What IS normal for these two?

I confess also, is there such a thing as a housewife on Coruscant?

Of course, the sexual morals for star Wars are a bit backwards as its been established repeatedly that sexism is pretty prevalent still in the galaxy.

 

Well, I think the point is, it is mundane. It's "normal". He may be used to his Jedi life, and Padme's role as a senator, but he's aware that his lifestyle is anything but typical and he's in some ways jealous of the people who can be in love and get married and no one thinks anything of it, and they happily sit around and make coffee and read the newspaper and go out to the zoo on a Saturday and hold hands and then come back and clean the garage. Suburban life appeals to Anakin in at least some aspects. A monkish order's idea of mundanity isn't what he wants. And how does mundanity with a single mother differ from mundanity in married life? Sitting down for a little food and drink with the one you love is sitting down with a little food and drink with the one you love. Why shouldn't Anakin and his mother have done the same? A night in with a loved one would probably be the definition of mundane and normal for the entire first nine years of Anakin's life. I think it's very true to the character to have him think of things in that way.

As for Earth: of course it's filtered through Earth. Everything in Star Wars is, or it would be completely unrelatable. The aliens are alien, yes, and some of the humans are, but galactic human culture is largely Earth-normal. They're cosmopolitan enough that they don't think too much of Sullustan marital relations, except to wonder "How does that actually work out for you?" and they're not weirded out by other cultures -- but they're relatably similar to Western culture. Their normal is our normal, In Space, with the requisite adjustments. I'm afraid anyone expecting it to show something else is going to be disappointed, because that's just not the kind of fiction Star Wars is. It tries to make things a little alien, a little exotic, but it does that cosmetically -- "Don't call it Mundane Item X -- give it a space name! Coffee is caf! Paper is flimsi!" -- rather than by fundamentally altering the social norms of the mainstream, reader-identifying society.

 

Then why wasn't he thinking that what Padmé did reminded him of what his mother had done? That would have been fitting his background.


I really don't want to continue harping on this point, I just brought it up because it jarred me out of the Star Wars feel. Of course you are completely right that it's quite impossible to kick out all of Earth's sentiments and values... But in all of the Star Wars stuff I've read (and that would be about 90 books now) that kind of "hold it, the GFFA doesn't work that way" has happened so rarely that I still find it remarkeable enough to bring it up, when it happens.

Also, "Western 21st Century Earth" isn't that monolithic in its values, after all. And I doubt there's much suburban life on Coruscant, or houses with white picket fences. Maybe Corellia is like that, but not Coruscant.^^