main
side
curve

Saga The Prophecy of a Chosen One ... do you like it ? ( with a Poll )

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Saga Explorer, Aug 28, 2015.

?

Do you like the concept of the Chosen One and the Prophecy ?

  1. Yes , I find it great .

    59 vote(s)
    34.5%
  2. Yes , I just like it .

    28 vote(s)
    16.4%
  3. I could do without it , but it's here so I accept it .

    37 vote(s)
    21.6%
  4. I'm indifferent , but it would be better without it .

    6 vote(s)
    3.5%
  5. No , I don't like it .

    26 vote(s)
    15.2%
  6. I am wholeheartedly against it .

    15 vote(s)
    8.8%
  1. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    ????
    I don't follow this line of reasoning at all.
    No one was able to kill Greedo before Han killed him. No one was able to kill Jabba before Leia did.
    No one was able to kill Kit Fisto before Palpatine did.

    Is your argument that all of these people were un-killable through any means other than the way they died? Is Leia a chosen one because she was the one who killed Jabba?
    Anakin did kill Palpatine but that does NOT prove that he was the only one who could.
    It just proves that he was the one who did. Very different.

    Mace had a chance to kill him but Anakin interfered. Yoda tried but failed and guards came in and he had to flee.
    Nothing at all suggest that Palpatine is immortal or un-killable. And he is not omniscient or all-knowing either. He didn't foresee the first DS getting blown up. Nor that Luke would come to Endor and neither did he sense him there. And he never saw Anakin turning back to the light and killing him. So a bomb or some such could have killed him just fine.
    Lucas didn't want to tell that story but that is a different matter.

    If the Force is only concerned with Palpatine and any apprentice dying, then that can be achieved through any number of means. The Force could do it itself. Simply give Palpatine a brain hemorrhage or a heart attack. Force balanced. Or do this to the pilots on one of his shuttles and have it crash. Force balanced. Have a gunner aim differently in RotS, Force balanced.
    Again this wouldn't make a very good story but that is a different issue.

    Both you and DS make the logical mistake of assuming that just because one person did a thing, it proves that he/she was the only one who COULD do this.
    Not so.
    Hitler killed himself, others did try but failed. But does this prove that he was immortal and could only die by his own hand? Not remotely.

    This is one reason why I find the prophecy is so uninspiring and makes little sense. All Anakin has to do is kill a man. He is a Force Terminator, a killer, an assassin. Nothing much special there.
    Palpatine is powerful sure but he can be killed same as anyone else.
    IF the Force made Anakin, one wonders why it didn't just kill Palpatine itself. It certainly could have.
    That wouldn't give much of a story but if that is the reason why the Force didn't do the job itself, that explanation doesn't really work In-universe.


    @darth-sinister
    Prove it, direct lines IN the films please.
    That he didn't use his hands and instead used his lightsabre does not prove he didn't know that it was doable without one. He had a lightsabre and no reason not to use it.
    If a person uses a gun to kill someone, that doesn't prove that he was unaware that a knife could also kill someone.


    And him being ready to know could very well be after he had killed Vader in their eyes. We don't know.
    They didn't tell him when he was leaving to face Vader. They must have known that it would be much worse if Vader told Luke this. And yet they kept silent.


    Seriously?
    This is your explanation?
    First telling Luke about this would take maybe five seconds. "Luke, the emperor has a power to throw lightning but you can block it with your lightsabre." So they have zero excuse not to warn him about this.
    Second, Yoda and Obi-Wan wanted both Vader and Palpatine gone. So Luke MUST go up against him at some point. So again them not telling him about one of Palpatine's greatest powers is stupid.
    Third, by now Yoda and Obi-Wan both know that Vader and Palpatine are after Luke, they even say as much in ESB. So for Luke to go after Vader would very likely mean running afoul of Palpatine as well. So again, why not prepare him? Esp since Obi-Wan saw first hand that Luke wasn't really eager to kill his father.

    So if they know about this power and that it is simple to block. Them not telling Luke is a problem.
    However if they didn't know about this power then the problem goes away.


    The film proves you wrong. Yoda DIRECTY states that Luke's training is finished. "No more training do you require." Luke still has to face a test but he knows all he needs to know.
    Doing that would make him a Jedi and by ESB "Only a fully trained Jedi, with the Force as his ally, could conquer Vader and his Emperor." So once Luke is a Jedi, he can take down Palpatine.
    Vader says as much himself "Your skills are complete."

    Case closed.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
     
  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    If anyone could kill Palpatine, then there is no need for a Chosen One. Ergo, events happened that prevented that. Anakin, for instance, doesn't kill Palpatine and instead attacks Mace. Anakin could have killed Palpatine in his office, but chose not to. Anakin could have plunged them into the side of a building, but didn't. But he could kill Palpatine to save Luke and does so. Yoda cannot kill Palpatine, nor could the Jedi Posse. They weren't strong enough. It's the same way in "The Matrix", Neo was the one who could stop the war because he was different from his predecessors. All the others chose to repeat the cycle, whereas Neo was the one who could actual make the choice to break the cycle.

    If he could be killed, then Anakin doesn't need to exist. That's the point. If anyone could kill John Conner, then there's no need for a Terminator.

    That's why Lucas left it so that it might not be the Force, but the Sith.


    There were no Sith around for a thousand years. Ergo, there's no one to practice learning how to block without a saber. Yoda is almost a thousand years old and quite possibly his Master was also an old Jedi, who fought against the Sith and had taught him how to block it without a Lightsaber.

    They didn't even think Vader would say it. That's why Yoda said it was unexpected. He did not foresee, nor believe that Vader would acknowledge his previous life. As to when, I believe it would be after he finished his training, but before being sent out to confront Vader.


    Not all necessary. Luke could easily go against Vader without Palpatine's involvement. He wasn't on Cloud City. So there was no guarantee that they would meet up at Endor. Or on Coruscant. When Luke was ready to face Palpatine, they would warn him. They also don't know that Luke will throw away his saber, or if they did, that Palpatine would attack him at all. He could still do so and Vader, who might not be injured, could kill Luke instead. They could also believe that if Luke refused to kill Vader, that he could have a change of heart and help Luke.


    He knows what he needs, but he doesn't know everything. And he is half trained since Palpatine gets the better of him.
     
  3. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Yoda: "Luke, do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor, or suffer your father's fate, you will."

    Yoda: "No more training do you require. Already know that which you need."
     
    Tosche_Station likes this.
  4. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Agreed

    Debatable, since Luke's choice turned out to be the right one. Had he not been sufficiently trained, he would have fallen to the Dark Side, killed Vader, and become Palpatine's pawn.
     
    Tosche_Station likes this.
  5. LZM65

    LZM65 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2015


    I'm not quite so sure about that. I think Palpatine may have unintentionally prevented Luke from becoming his pawn.
     
  6. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Okay, but if Luke killed Vader, and Luke isn't capable of taking down Palpatine himself, who's gonna save Luke?
     
    Tosche_Station likes this.
  7. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    That's not the same as knowing that he is going to face him right now.


    Yoda's about to pop off. He cannot train him anymore. If Luke hadn't left, he would have been able to finish his training.

    If he had been fully trained, he wouldn't have been tempted like he was. He wouldn't have lashed out at all and thus he wouldn't fall. It was his due to his insufficient training that Palpatine and Vader were able to goad Luke into attacking. Note that Dooku couldn't tempt Obi-wan, who was able to remain cool during their encounters. As noted, Luke's rash decision to leave did have benefits. But it also almost destroyed him.
     
  8. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Luke's rash decision was in ESB. In ROTJ, Obi-wan warns him about Palpatine, and Yoda says he's fully trained and requires no more training. That's that.
     
  9. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Yoda doesn't say that he is fully trained. He says that he knows that which he will need. There is a difference.
     
  10. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    And yet Luke succeeded.

    "Stopped they must be; on this all depends. Only a fully trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor."

    "One thing remains. Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will. "
     
  11. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Dooku was fully trained and had been a Jedi Knight and Master for years, before he turned. Success is only measured in how one learns and continues to learn. Luke learned because he could see himself in his father and that's why he didn't turn. Being trained only means that he could hold his own against Vader.
     
  12. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Are you saying Luke didn't succeed?

    And Dooku was created specifically to show that even a well-trained Jedi could succumb to the Dark Side, to explain what happens to Anakin, and foreshadow what could happen to Luke.

    As to the nature of the Dark Side:
     
    Samuel Vimes and Tosche_Station like this.
  13. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Why not? If you're a Jedi, you have faith in the Force. It's what you do! Why should a Jedi's relationship to the Force go out the window just because a Sith did something?

    The end result is the destruction of the Sith ( and the defeat of the Empire ), so no.

    Wrong. Their expectation was that he would destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force. He doesn't need to be created by the Force in order to do these things.
     
  14. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    The Prophecy in early drafts merely states someone will bring balance to the Force. The films add the part about the Chosen One being born of the Force. No other details are given.

    And given that the Jedi succeed at the end and the Prophecy is fulfilled, it would appear their faith wasn't misplaced after all.
     
  15. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Congratulations, you have finally understood why I find this whole thing redundant.
    Palpatine could have been killed in any number of ways and being just the guy that kills him is nothing special nor terribly interesting.

    The rise and fall of a good but flawed man and his eventually redemption by the love and compassion of his son and him finding peace in the end. That is a great story. It doesn't need a "bring harmony to the universe" plot added onto it. This could and to me did, cause the plot to be overly cluttered and not enough time was given to let the ideas, some of which were quite interesting, time to develop and grow.
    So not only did the prophecy not add anything much in my opinion. It also took time away from more interesting bits and the whole suffered because of it.

    Mace could have killed Palpatine if Anakin had not interfered.
    If Anakin had been a little careless, he could have crashed the ship and killed Palpatine.
    A clone trooper could have killed Palpatine in RotS.
    You seem not to understand the difference between "Did Not" and "Could Not".
    Luke Did Not kill Vader but he certainly could have. Vader Could Not give birth to Luke because he is Male and thus lacks an uterus.

    As for the Matrix. Neo was shown to be far more powerful than the rest of the humans in Zion. He could do things they could not. And he could do things the programs could not.
    Anakin isn't shown to be that much stronger or more skilled or capable of anything much more than the run of the mill Jedi.
    And the prophecy was shown to have an impact on Neo and his character while Anakin apparently didn't give a moments thought to the whole thing.
    Also, Neo's function was just to be another system of control but he rebelled against it and accomplished something greater. Anakin rebelled against his fate sort of but that accomplished nothing but darkness and eventually he came back to it. So Anakin was in the end a dutiful little drone and did was he was made to do. Neo did something greater.

    Again, this is exactly my point why this prophecy thing is so unneeded.
    As for John Connor, anyone Could kill him. SkyNet's problem is that no one has. And thus SkyNet sets about to alter history. But in a way one could say that it winds up creating John Connor and itself. If no Terminator had been sent back, John Connor would not exist but maybe SkyNet would not either.
    In all, those are much more interesting questions than the prophecy in the PT.


    Which to me suggest he didn't know where to go with this idea and what to do with it so he tossed in a supposed ambiguity which made the whole thing even weaker and even less interesting.


    First, if there is no Sith and no one to practice with, how could he know that a lightsabre could block it? Answer, he was told about it.
    Second, he could then also have been TOLD about the possibility to use his hands. Your argument was that Obi-Wan didn't KNOW that using his hands was an option. If Jedi lore has info about Sith powers and how to block them, then since he knows one way then no reason he would not know an other way. He might not be trained enough to do it, but that doesn't mean he didn't know about it.

    What are the possible outcomes of Luke facing Vader?
    Luke is captured. This would be very bad and he will then be brought to Palpatine and he could tell Luke the truth in order to turn him against Yoda and Obi-Wan. Which is what Vader did.
    Luke somehow kills Vader before learning the truth. Imagine how angry he would be at Yoda and Obi-Wan once they tell him after the fact.
    Luke is told the truth but escapes.
    Luke gets lucky and escapes and somehow also saves his friends. Neither this or the second and third options are very likely.
    So three out of four options would have very bad outcomes if they don't tell Luke the truth.

    Vader's plan was to capture Luke and take him to Palpatine. And Obi-Wan says in ESB "It is you and your abilities the Emperor wants." So Luke would come face to face with him sooner or later.
    And if it is as simple as "Your lightsabre can be used to block Force Lightning." this would take five seconds to tell Luke and they have ZERO reason not to and are morons for not telling him.

    As for Vader turning back, Obi-Wan pretty much rejects that possibility. Yoda isn't as categorical but nothing suggest he had any hope for Anakin.


    [/QUOTE]

    He has enough training, this is stated IN the film. You are trying to overrule Canon.

    Knowing EVERYTHING is quite a lot.
    In order to become a doctor, you need some training and knowledge. Once you know enough and have passed enough tests and exams, you are a doctor. That doesn't mean you know EVERYTHING about medicine.

    And in this case, since Luke's job is to "conquer" both Vader and Palpatine, knowing about Palpatine's powers would very much be needed info for Luke. But both Yoda and Obi-Wan are apparently stupid and decide not to tell him for some reason.

    As for half-trained, Palpatine gets the better of Mace's posy, where they half-trained too?
    Yoda even looses against Palpatine, was he half-trained as well?

    You contradict your own point by bringing up Dooku later on.
    Dooku was fully trained and very experienced and yet he was tempted and fell to the Dark Side.
    So clearly being fully trained is no guarantee not to fall.

    Luke was fully trained, both Yoda and Vader say this. He still had to face a test, to see if he had been able to learn all that he had been taught.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  16. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Correct. As Lucas said, the Dark Side is always a threat for any Jedi. Not even Yoda is immune to it, despite his many decades of training. What Luke demonstrated to Vader was that, as tempting as the Dark Side may be, one can come back from it. Vader had been convinced by Palpatine that this was impossible, but then realized that the only thing holding himself back was himself. Once he turned back from the Dark Side, he redeemed himself and died a Jedi, thus returning as a Force ghost.

    (Interesting note: in a prior version of ROTJ, Yoda prevented Anakin from becoming a Force ghost. In another version, there's a hint of a third spectre, but it's not clear if it's Anakin or not.)
     
    Darth__Lobot and Tosche_Station like this.
  17. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012
    This... Absolutely on the mark.

    That is evidence only that no-one did kill him during that time, not that no-one could. Your inability to "understand that kind of thinking at all" doesn't really say anything about the logic of the argument itself.



    .....which I did. I'm aware that the only option I have to deny it is...to deny it.


    Nice misuse...or rather, misunderstanding, of a quote. If a boulder lands on your foot an breaks it...no amount of 'not believing it' will make the fact of a broken foot go away. This is not such a case. In fact your argument hinges upon clear untruths.......such as..

    He didn't write the scripts. Two of the movies he didn't direct, he was the executive producer of those movies. You seem to be talking about the PT movies here....

    When he was first starting TPM, Lucas said something along the lines of his being in a position, now, to make the movies he always wanted to make. That suggests that the movies he had made prior to that were not the movies he wanted to make. When you watch the 'making of' videos it is clear that Lucas is writing the majority of the stuff on the fly, as the story is being made.

    As Samuel Vimes has pointed out, there was within the story that the OT told a rich structure for a back-story. A wide and interesting set of stories were there to be told had the story that already existed been elaborated upon. What we have instead is some notion of a prophecy that a) doesn't really go anywhere or do anything; b) is full of ideas and tropes that leave me, for one, cold and; c) (and as a corollary of b)) undermines a greast deal of what the OT actually was about.

    I'll just say, before I leave this, that the OT movies have a 'spiritual' aspect to them. For me, and I think many others, there is a clear philosophical underpinning to them - and one that resonates deeply with me. The PT, on the other hand, is filled with tropes that are incompatible with those earlier ideas. "Bloodlines" and genetic elites, demi-gods, an over-arching agency - a kind of "invisible hand" guiding events, a focus on a notion of 'power' as the precursor to 'greatness' - as examples.

    There were a number of great stories to be told as the prequels to the movies as they were, within the stories they already told. What Lucas decided to do, instead, was subvert those stories...for some reason.
     
    Darth__Lobot and Tosche_Station like this.
  18. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Oh, it's not that big a deal. I just watch the OT.... It hasn't been subverted. ;)
     
    Darth__Lobot and only one kenobi like this.
  19. ThisHurricane

    ThisHurricane Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2015
    Seems like most of the board liked it. :) Good story telling by Lucas.
     
  20. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Luke succeeded in not turning to the dark side. But just because he succeeded there, does not mean that his life will always be free of the dark side. But not turning doesn't mean that he stops the Sith. It just meant that he stopped them from turning him.

    I think you fail to grasp my meaning. The stories like this are designed specifically for one person, not anyone. Otherwise, Lancelot would have pulled out Excalibur rather than Arthur and be king of the Britions. Morpheus or Trinity would have been the one to end the war against the machines, rather than Neo. Anyone can pick up Mjolnir and have the power of Thor. Anyone else besides Beowulf would have killed Grendel. Any person could be the Slayer. Harry Potter wouldn't be the one who could destroy Voldemort. Ash Williams isn't the one who would stop the Deadite army from claiming the Necronomicon. Samson would not have delivered the Isrealites from the Philistines.

    Anakin Skywalker's story is designed for that purpose.

    Barely anything was really talked about it in the films and didn't detract from other plot lines in the films.

    I do know the difference between the two phrases.

    Neo's power did not beat Smith since he was stronger than him. Neo was the One because he came to understand that the machines were not evil and that both humans and machines needed each other. The problem was choice. The humans in the Matrix wanted to be free. Not all of them, but many did. He arranged to allow the machines to let them go, if they wanted out and to not be hunted down by the Agents. Anakin's power was the reason why he turns to the dark side. He wanted to be all powerful, because he did not take his training seriously. When his mother died, he became convinced that he had to be all powerful and in the end, because of his obsession with power, because Palpatine planted those ideas in his head, he became Vader. He had to realize that power offered nothing to him. If he had trained hard to begin with and taken it seriously, he could have beaten Palpatine when the time came.

    He did know where to take it. He wrote that Palpatine created Anakin and that ultimately is why he chooses to side with him. Lucas felt that was saying that Anakin was predisposed to being evil and so he left it as ambiguous.

    He may or may not have known, but opted to block it with a saber since he saw Anakin get taken out and thus acted on instinct. Second, knowing about how to block without a saber and using the Force is not the same as practicing it.

    Or that Palpatine wouldn't tell him the truth and instead use other means to get Luke to turn.

    Or Luke doesn't get angry, because he understands that maybe the Jedi were right to withhold that from him before he was ready to hear it.

    Or Luke stays on Dagobah, finishes the training and then is told before going to confront the Sith.

    Right, which is why they would wait until after the confrontation with Vader. Or at the very least teach him that before he left for Cloud City.

    See my earlier post on that.

    Or Obi-wan isn't being honest and thinks that it is possible, but wants Luke to figure it out for himself, rather than just follow orders blindly as he and the other Jedi did during the war.

    Originally, Lucas had intended for Luke to finish his training, but felt that was too much like TESB if he did do that. So he opted to have Luke be partially trained, so that there would be a greater danger of his turning. So in having no training sequence and removing the Jedi from helping Luke against the Sith, that leaves us with a Luke who was trained enough, but not enough to face this battle without temptation.

    "In coming back to see Yoda, we have to figure out Luke’s training and the fact that he never finished his training, and that obviously now he’s got a big question he wants answered. There is a point where the hero has to be left alone on his own two feet without anybody there to help him. And you can sort of have him be in a different place or something, but at some point you have to say well now all the props have been taken away, and he has to face the evil monster alone. In this case, the scene establishes that the evil monster is actually his father, and he’s going to have to do it upon his own, and that he’s really not equipped to do it. That he was too impatient, he didn’t finish his studies, and now he’s going to be half trained to face a difficult physical and emotional challenge."

    --George Lucas, DVD Commentary, Star Wars: Return of the Jedi, 2004


    They were fully trained, but they were not the Chosen One. They were not powerful enough to defeat Palpatine.

    No, in the rough drafts, Yoda helps Anakin to retain his identity. Lucas then decided that he shouldn't be a ghost, but was then talked into it by Kazanjian.

    After Brackett wrote her draft, Lucas wrote the second draft and the revised second draft in April of 78. He then wrote a third draft just after meeting with Kasdan to discuss the first Indy film. Kasdan then wrote drafts four and five, with revisions, between October of 1978 and August of 1979. On ROTJ, the first draft by Lucas was finished in February of 81 and had a revision in June. Kasdan wrote a second draft by September of 81, with revisions in November. Third draft was turned in by early December, but after Kasdan did a revision, Lucas then did two revisions in January of 82. One before filming and one that took place after the first day of filming and looking at the rushes.

    As to directing, he did co-direct some scenes on ROTJ and was involved in editing that film. But what Lucas was talking about making movies with the PT, he's not downplaying Kasdan or the two directors. Rather, he's referring to not having to answer to a studio system and not having to worry about not being able to do something because the technology doesn't exist to do it.
     
  21. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    No, Luke's act was precisely what Anakin needed, as stated by Lucas.
    His actions were more important than you give him credit for.

    I agree, and I stated as much already.

    As stated previously, the Dark Side is always a danger to /any/ Jedi. There is no immunity.

    That said, his actions demonstrate to Vader that one can come back to the Dark Side. Without Luke's momentary slip, Vader would have continued to believe it wasn't possible.

    LUKE
    Search your feelings, father. You can't do
    this. I feel the conflict within you. Let go
    of your hate.

    VADER
    It is too late for me, son. The Emperor will
    show you the true nature of the Force. He is
    your master now.

    Vader signals to some distant stormtroopers. He and Luke stand
    staring at one another for a long moment.

    LUKE
    Then my father is truly dead.
    ---------------------------------------
    EMPEROR
    Ah, yes, a Jedi's weapon. Much like your
    father's. By now you must know your father
    can never be turned from the dark side. So
    will it be with you.
     
    Tosche_Station likes this.
  22. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    I'm not taking away from what Luke did. All I'm saying is that the notion that Luke refusing to turn stops the Sith is a bit off. It did help Vader to break free, but wasn't what the Jedi were wanting Luke to do. They wanted him to not turn, but they also wanted him to get rid of the Sith. only one kenobi just thinks that is all that they meant when they implored Luke to stay on Dagobah. That they wanted him to just stop them and not destroy them.

    Well, what I mean is that Obi-wan would at least hope that it would be a situation where Luke be able to face Vader in a manner that he did with Dooku, where he didn't feel tempted to give into the dark side. Not that Luke couldn't ever be tempted, but that if he were fully trained and more in control and accepting of things, then there wouldn't be any danger. Lucas felt that there needed to be that temptation and danger, which is why Luke never goes back to be trained and any help that Luke would have, was removed from the equation. And his reasoning for this was that Luke was going to face a difficult challenge without finishing what he started and this would then set the stage for his lashing out because he feels powerless to stop it. Just as Anakin's temptations were the result of his feeling powerless.
     
  23. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Yes, but Palpatine presents himself as "unarmed". Neither Ben, Yoda, or Anakin ever warn Luke about the lightning, or being able to block it.

    Then there's serious disconnect between Yoda saying Luke knows all that he needs to know, and Lucas saying Luke is half-trained. There's also a contradiction between two Lucas quotes.

    But it's also about the transformation of how his son came to find the call and then ultimately realize what it was. Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it's only in the last act--when he throws his sword down and says, "I'm not going to fight this"--that he makes a more conscious, rational decision. And he does it at the risk of his life because the Emperor is going to kill him. It's only that way that he is able to redeem his father.
    ------------------
    In this case, the scene establishes that the evil monster is actually his father, and he’s going to have to do it upon his own, and that he’s really not equipped to do it. That he was too impatient, he didn’t finish his studies, and now he’s going to be half trained to face a difficult physical and emotional challenge."

    So, either Luke surpassed Ben's and Yoda's expectations despite his training because he finally understood the Force in a manner that Ben and Yoda didn't (Odd, since they were Force ghosts, meaning they are one with the Force),

    ....or (and this is my personal theory), they told him what he needed to hear so guide his actions in a manner that would hopefully affect Anakin, causing Anakin to do what needed to be done, much like the Matrix, where Neo is told he isn't the One, which was technically true at the time:
    The Oracle: Sorry, kid. You got the gift, but it looks like you're waiting for something.
    Neo: What?
    The Oracle: Your next life maybe, who knows? That's the way these things go.

    Neo, and the audience, are given the clue that he needs to die first before he can truly defeat the machines, which means the key is sacrifice. Luke is sent in with the belief that he has the necessary skills, but it's his love for his father and commitment to his beliefs that ultimately save the day. Unbeknownst to him, his Jedi training was meant largely to keep him alive long enough to be able to persuade Anakin. Keep in mind, Ben and Yoda keep telling Luke to confront Vader....not to destroy him. Even Ben says The Emperor knew, as I did, if, Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him.. Now, one interpretation would be that they would be as powerful in the Force as he was, but another interpretation would be that they would serve as a reminder of who he once was, and what he should do, which is supported by Lucas" but when you see the next trilogy, then you see the issue is, How do we get Darth Vader back? How do we get him back to that little boy that he was in the first movie, that good person who loved and was generous and kind? Who had a good heart."

    Basically, both Luke and Anakin cannot simply be told what to do (which would remove suspense from the film).....they must come to their own realization of what must be done, and commit to that action regardless of the consequences (sacrificing oneself for the greater good.)
    ---------------------------
    "The part I am working on now [ROTJ] is mostly about Darth Vader, who he is, where he came from, how he became Luke and Leia's father, what his relationship to Ben is. In Jedi, the film is really about the redemption of this fallen angel.. Ben is the fitting good angel, and Vader is the bad angel who started off good. All these years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That's what Ben has been doing, but you dont get this in the first film." - George Lucas: Annotated Screenplays
    -----------------------
    Should Anakin have been trained?

    "GL: I think it is obvious that he was wrong in Episode 1 and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The Phantom Menace refers to the force of the dark side of the Universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader - also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction, and Qui-Gonn are correct - Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor."
    -----------------------
    "Sam Davatchi's website reports that George Lucas told a reporter for Studio Magazine that Anakin is indeed the one who brings balance to the force. In this interview, Lucas said that Anakin vanquished the Emperor and brought balance to the Force, although he did need help from Luke to do so. In addition, Lucas said that Anakin is the only person who could do that, because he is the only one who had enough power and was close enough to the emperor to destroy him. As pointed out by Cinescape Online, this fits into the following statement made by Lucas in the Making of Episode I book: "The mystery around [the chosen one] theory is that we don't know yet whether the chosen one is a good or bad person. He is to bring balance to the Force; but at this point, we don't know what side of the Force needs to be balanced out." (6/18/99)." -1. In general, what will the New Trilogy be about?
    ----------------------
    "The first film starts with the last age of the Republic; which is it's getting tired, old, it's getting corrupt. There's the rise of the Sith, who are now becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this you have Anakin Skywalker: a young boy who's destined to be a very significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and the Republic.

    In the second film, we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Replublic, sorta the beginning of the end of the Republic, and it's Anakin Skyalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he's coping with.

    Then we will get to the 3rd film, where he is seduced to the dark side, which brings up to films four, five, and six, where Anakin's offspring redeem him allowing him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe. - George Lucas - from the American ANH VHS tape in the making of Episode II in the 2000 release.
    ------------------------
    MOYERS: Do you know yet what, in a future episode, is going to transform Anakin Skywalker to the dark side?

    LUCS: Yes, I know what that is. The groundwork has been laid in this episode. The film is ultimately about the dark side and the light side, and those sides are designed around compassion and greed. The issue of greed, of getting things and owning things and having things and not being able to let go of things, is the opposite of compassion--of not thinking of yourself all the time. These are the two sides--the good force and the bad force. They're the simplest parts of a complex cosmic construction.
    -------------------------
    "All of it is about a journey of self-discovery anyway. That is the essence of what all the Star Wars characters are about. This particular saga is just the saga of one family and what happens when one person in the family does something horrible to the people he loves. What are the circumstances, what are the ramifications, what happens to the rest of the family? I think George has always envisioned this as one big 12-hour film where you can sit down and watch this interesting thing happen. This saga of how somebody takes the wrong course and what it does for the rest of his life and then ultimately how does he redeem himself?" (5/20/00). - McCallum
    -------------------------
    LUCAS: Oh, yes. There is, definitely. You write from your own emotions. And obviously there are two sides to the redeemer motif in the Star Wars films. Ultimately Vader is redeemed by his children and especially by having children. Because that's what life is all about--procreating and raising children, and it should bring out the best of you.

    MOYERS: So while Star Wars is about cosmic, galactic epic struggles, it's at heart about a family?

    LUCAS: And a hero. Most myths center on a hero, and it's about how you conduct yourself as you go through the hero's journey, which in all classical myth takes the form of a voyage of transformation by trials and revelations. You must let go of your past and must embrace your future and figure out what path you're going to go down.
    -------------------------
    Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrong, but he stops the horror."- George Lucas in The Making of ROTS, page 221

    Ultimately, the bait that turns Luke is the same bait that turns Anakin......love for one's family. Anakin turned to the Dark Side to protect his wife, and Luke turned to the Dark Side when Vader threatened his sister. When Luke stops and sacrifices himself, Vader no longer sees his children as a means to an end (destroying Palpatine to gain more power), and sacrifices himself for his children, finally choosing to forgo the "power" he's been seeking for so long.
     
  24. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Palpatine only claims that he does not have a weapon like a Lightsaber. In which case, he is unarmed if he is telling the truth about not carrying a Lightsaber. But Luke is aware that Palpatine can use the Force. So he knows that he is capable of doing that if he were to choose to. But I'm not sure what this has to do with getting rid of the Sith?

    As to the rest, Luke had what he needed because he didn't turn when he fought Vader and had learned from his mistakes when he rescued Han. So in terms of knowing what he needed, that was more than enough. But in terms of being fully trained, well, compare Luke in ROTJ to the Jedi of the PT. Luke is still a ways off from being like them. But in terms of what the Jedi were after from Luke, there is what I said earlier when talking to Vimes. You and I are on the same page, but we're somehow talking over each other.
     
  25. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Well, there are some discrepencies in terms of interpretation and outcome.

    In terms of comparing Luke to the PT Jedi, Luke succeeded where Obi-wan failed in terms of turning Anakin from the Dark Side. Anakin succeeded where Yoda failed in terms of defeating Palpatine. While the PT Jedi have flashier lightsaber choreography, they failed miserably in terms of dealing with the Sith threat. They spent a great deal of time trying to find their butts with their own hands....otherwise, we wouldn't even have had the OT (in terms of movie chronology). One might say that the PT Jedi failed due to complacency and ignorance. So, Luke may not have had as much experience as Ben and Yoda, but he certainly exceeded both their expectations and accomplishments as far as Vader and Palpatine are concerned.

    But Luke doesn't know about the lightning....a truly offensive use of the Force. And Palpatine repeatedly goads him about striking down an unarmed man in order to complete his journey towards the Dark Side, so the only rational conclusion is that Luke cannot choose the path of attacking Palpatine without risking the Dark Side....just as Luke chose not to kill Vader once Vader was disarmed. Force Powers, even the ones Luke knows Palpatine is capable of, simply are not sufficient reason for Luke to attack Palpatine.....even when the rest of the galaxy is in danger of being overrun by the Empire. When Luke throws down his sword, he does so under the belief that he will die, either by Palpatine's hand, or by the Rebels destroying the Death Star with him on it. "Your faith in your friends is [your weakness]."

    He's basically banking everything on the success of the rebel fleet, because he's not expecting to leave the Death Star alive. His goal was to die in the attempt to turn his father back. At one point in the storywriting process, Luke does die on the Death Star.
     
    Darth__Lobot and Tosche_Station like this.