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Saga The Prophecy of a Chosen One ... do you like it ? ( with a Poll )

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Saga Explorer, Aug 28, 2015.

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Do you like the concept of the Chosen One and the Prophecy ?

  1. Yes , I find it great .

    59 vote(s)
    34.5%
  2. Yes , I just like it .

    28 vote(s)
    16.4%
  3. I could do without it , but it's here so I accept it .

    37 vote(s)
    21.6%
  4. I'm indifferent , but it would be better without it .

    6 vote(s)
    3.5%
  5. No , I don't like it .

    26 vote(s)
    15.2%
  6. I am wholeheartedly against it .

    15 vote(s)
    8.8%
  1. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Nonsense. The Skywalker genetic bloodline is right there in the holy OT. Thus, you would undermine the OT not by including such a thing, but by throwing it out. It's part of Lucas' concept and exists in both trilogies.

    On the part of Sith, or those in the process of becoming Sith. A Sith-like philosophy being expressed by such characters is only what we would expect to see. Should there have been no Sith in the PT? Was Anakin's turn to the dark side something reasonable people should have expected to see in the PT?
     
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  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    They failed to deal with the Sith, because it was never their destiny to defeat them. The arrogance and complacency is one major reason why. But that wasn't what I was getting at. Again, we're talking crossways.

    But as we know, not the only one. Vader didn't need lightning to batter Luke senseless and the PT demonstrated that Force shoves were just as effective. Not to mention a Force choke. No, he doesn't know about the lightning and he would have if he had finished his training.


    Luke can fight Palpatine without falling to the dark side. What Palpatine does is goad him into thinking that the only way to destroy him is to give into his fear, anger and hate and use them to destroy him. That's why he uses the Death Star trap to force his hand. First by revealing that this whole operation was a giant trap, then that the Death Star was fully functional and then finally managed to get the appropriate response out of Luke. Luke could fight Palpatine without falling. He only chooses to stop fighting because he doesn't need to. He's succeeded when he understands the riddle of the cave.
     
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  3. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    There was plenty of time to tell Luke after the whole "Don't underestimate the powers of the Emperor" speech. Seriously, it's not like Luke is running to catch a bus or anything. ROTJ is the end-game.... Everyone knows this.... This is why Yoda tells Luke he knows all he needs to know, which makes the lightning a glaring omission. It's silly to claim they're saving it for "later". He needs it now.... unless the omission was intentional.

    Debatable, but Luke knew it was a trick either way, so we'll never know. What is seen in the cave, however, is Luke fighting an armed Vader and turning into Vader.... so even then, there was a threat of turning to the Dark Side.
     
  4. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    They do not know what Luke will do as his future is clouded like his father's. They do not know that he will throw down his Lightsaber or not. Nor whether or not Vader will turn back, since they couldn't believe that he would admit that. Everything Luke does going forward was up to him and unknown to them.


    But Luke only realizes the meaning of the cave is that if he kills Vader using the dark side, he will become Vader. Not that killing Vader period will do so. When he sees Vader, he is afraid. He is afraid that he's been found before he's ready. That fear turns to anger because this is the man who killed his father and Obi-wan. That anger becomes hate at the man who destroyed his life. That is why he failed. That's why Lucas said that by taking his weapon in there, Luke was going to fail his test because he was going in there afraid and he was going to react a certain way. If he had heeded Yoda's warning, then he would have had a different vision hit him.

    As to Luke realizing it is a trick when Palpatine goads him, he only knows that he's being encouraged to attack Palpatine. Then he actually does because he let's his fear and anger get the better of him.
     
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  5. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Not terribly good examples.
    Arthur's role was more than just pull a sword from a stone, he was to be King and that would entail a lot more. Anakin had to do just one thing, kill a man.
    Beowulf's story is a lot more than just him killing Grendel.
    As for Thor, if you are referring to the Norse Myths, people other than Thor could lift Mjolnir.
    If you are referring to the Marvel comics, again other people could lift Mjolnir and have the power of Thor. If you are talking about the movies, again other people are able to lift Mjolnir and also, Thor could not do it at first because he wasn't worthy. So he had to prove his worth. Anakin is just born "special".


    Time was wasted talking about "no father", "prophecy" and so on. Time that could have been spent elsewhere.

    Why then do you keep arguing that since Anakin killed Palpatine, that proves no one else could?
    Han killed Greedo, Leia killed Jabba, is that also proof that those could not have been killed by anyone else?

    First, Vader didn't really "beat" Palpatine. He took advantage of Palpatine being distracted and threw him down a shaft.
    What beat Smith was that he absorbed Neo, the One or just 1. And since Smith is his negative, he is -1. Add those together and you get zero. So Neo's "One" power could be seen as what beat Smith.
    Or the machines managed to erase Smith once he took over Neo since he was plugged into them.

    As for Anakin, you contradict yourself. First you say that it was Anakin's power than caused him to fall and then you say that if Anakin had just been more diligent in his training, he could have beaten Palpatine. So is the power or lack of attention the reason?
    Also, if him being so powerful was a problem, why did the Force make him so strong? If the Force made him. It could just have made him above average and not super strong and then he wouldn't have fallen. And as long as he is Anakin, he can still kill Palpatine.

    You seem to be changing your stance, first you stated that Obi-Wan didn't know. Now you admit that he might have known but opted not to use it.
    Second, it is likely that it is far easier to block lightning WITH a lightsaber than without one.
    So since Obi-Wan has a lightsaber, it would be stupid not to use it.

    And why would he not use one of the best ways to turn Luke against his mentors? That he could show them as liars and manipulative people? This is pretty much what Vader does in ESB.
    So unless Palpatine is a moron, he would use it.


    If we go by this logic, they would not tell him until after he had killed Vader even after he had finished his training.

    I was talking about the situation when it was clear that Luke was leaving. So that was no longer an option. But telling him the truth might have actually compelled him to stay.

    ????
    I am talking about RotJ here, why bring up ESB?
    Also Luke did confront Vader in ESB and yet they still didn't tell him about Force lightning after that.

    Your earlier posts fails to explain why they didn't mention that a ligthsabre could be used to block lighting, one of the Emperor main powers. It would take less than a minute and they are fools for keeping that from Luke. Unless they secretly want him dead.

    First, Yoda knows that Luke will confront Vader again since he says so IN the film.
    Second, your argument still doesn't work. Luke had been trained with the aim to get rid of Vader and Palpatine. That is what Yoda and Obi-Wan wants. So for them to NOT tell Luke about one of Palaptine's primary weapons and that is can be blocked quite easily. That is plain idiocy.
    It would be like if some cops are sent out to arrest a suspect and the dispatcher fails to mention that the suspect is armed.
    Yoda does warn Luke about the Emperor and to not underestimate his powers. So Yoda seemed to known or suspect that Luke would have to face him soon. So why omit the bit about this specific power and how it can be blocked?


    Assuming the characters lie without evidence gets us nowhere.
    Provide movie proof that Obi-Wan lied, otherwise it doesn't stand.

    [/QUOTE]

    You keep contradicting your own argument.
    Luke isn't Anakin and thus not the chosen one. So it doesn't matter how much training he has had.
    It would not matter because he can NEVER EVER beat Palpatine by virtue of not being Anakin.
    Luke could train for ten years and it would not matter in the slightest. As long as only Anakin can kill Palpatine, which you keep arguing, Luke can do squat against Palpatine.

    If Anakin and only Anakin can kill Palpatine, then Luke could never do it, no matter how powerful he was or how much he had trained.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  6. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Of course theoretically they could. Sidious wasn't innately immortal as we saw. The historical fact is that they didn't.

    Which does you no good at all. Because simply denying it doesn't at all work.

    This is exactly the case. It's like denying the boulder has broken your foot but you are arguing that it maybe possibly isn't really your foot at all.

    If you really were denying then you wouldn't argue that it didn't happen.

    No, Lucas wrote all the scripts and was as executive producer in essence the co-director of the other two. Whatever labels you want to place on it they are his films.

    Not much point going into the greater context of everything here but the point is Lucas with the prequels was able to make films pretty much exactly as he wanted them to be with no restrictions due to digital technology. He made TESB and ROTJ as best he could with the restrictions of optical and ANH with the restrictions of that plus the studio system.

    He always writes "on the fly". That is his way. As he says he sees the general story but has to create the fined details in another process.

    Well I can't agree in the least. The total opposite I'd say. It take the essence of what the OT was really about regarding Luke's journey and compares and contrasts that with Anakin's. It doesn't undermine it in the least and actually enhances it to a degree I doubt anyone ever thought possible.

    I find it interesting you keep using the word trope (for some reason in a derogatory way).

    Trope - A literary trope is the use of figurative language – via word, phrase, or even an image – for artistic effect such as using a figure of speech. The word trope has also come to be used for describing commonly recurring literary and rhetorical devices, motifs or clichés in creative works.

    Star Wars is full of "tropes" from the start. That kind of is the point. There is a clear philosophical underpinning to them all. The PT tropes are completely in harmony with the OT ones in terms of the point of showing the different but similar journeys of the father and son.

    "Bloodlines and genetic elites" as you put them are already in the OT. As is the Force. It's almost as if some people are annoyed that the Force itself which binds the galaxy together etc etc is actually far more important in the story than they think it should be. Anakin had power and was seen as being someone who was on the path to greatness. Didn't really work out that well for him did it?

    Once again it was all about his choices:

    you have control over your destiny, you have many paths to walk down, and you can choose which destiny is going to be yours.

    I see no subversion at all only enhancement. Now the issues are far clearer than they were originally since he now have the overall context of the story from the father's perspective.
     
  7. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    The point I'm making is that it isn't something that everyone can do. It takes a specific person to do something important. It doesn't matter if it is balancing the Force or a bunch of things. Anakin's actions are important. And in the case of Marvel Thor, it only takes certain people who are capable of lifting Mjolnir. Spider-Man cannot, but Captain America can.

    Spent on what?

    The difference is that Anakin was seen killing Palpatine, not anyone else. A whole prophecy was built around Anakin's actions. It was far more important a thing that happens than killing a couple of losers.

    First, you're splitting hairs. Neo and Anakin both beat their respective opponents, not by winning a straight up fight, but by other means. Their brains and their hearts won the day.

    You're missing the point. Anakin was born with a stronger connection to the Force. When he started his training, he found that it didn't take him long to catch up to the other Padawans and even in some ways, surpass them. The more he went on, the more he began to become arrogant and lazy. He wasn't trying as hard because it was so easy for him. Obi-wan notes this when he says that Anakin's senses may not be as attuned as his are, when he says that his saber skills could be better if he spent more time practicing and he tells Yoda and Mace that his abilities have made him arrogant. This all comes to a head when Anakin fails to save his mother and fails to best Dooku. He blames Obi-wan for his own faults. And worse, you have Palpatine telling him that he will be better than everyone. So what happens is that after his failures, Anakin tries to make himself more stronger and more powerful, but he becomes obsessed with power. He becomes obsessed with becoming so powerful that nothing bad will ever happen to him and his loved ones.

    Had he taken his training seriously from the get go and had not been mind ****** by Palpatine, he would have been strong enough both physically and mentally to do what needed to be done.

    His power was the result of creating him without a father. It is a consequence of his birthright. It is a necessity if he were to face the Sith as a proper Jedi, like say Yoda. Yoda had the mental discipline and the power to face many foes. If Yoda were stronger, he could have beaten Palpatine in battle. But he wasn't. Anakin could have if he had been more like Yoda. It's like Superman's Post Crisis origins; he's only Superman because of genetic tampering done to the Kryptonian race which resulted in their being able to absorb yellow sunlight and thus it grants them powers, and he was descended from those with the genetic tampering. He still has to choose to be good or evil, but the power is the result of forces beyond his control.

    I didn't change my stance. I said that Obi-wan may or may not have known about the lightning before the fight with Dooku. If he did know, then he knew that he needed to prepare for it and that his Lightsaber could help. It is also likely that he didn't know, in which case he reacted based on what happened to Anakin.

    Vader reveals himself because he realizes that Luke doesn't know and uses that to tempt him into joining him. Palpatine wouldn't need to because he can find other ways to turn Luke without needing to reveal his parentage to him.

    They would tell him so that he would have all the information available to him when it came to facing Vader. So that he would understand the dark side of the Force. Already we see Luke question why he couldn't use it.

    LUKE: "But tell me why I can't..."

    YODA: "No, no, there is no why."

    Luke doesn't quite understand yet the temptations of the dark side. He isn't ready yet. What he is ready for was the tree cave. Luke needs to learn about the Force, before he can learn of the truth about Vader.

    Or it might compel Luke to stop training because he'd be afraid to become like his father.

    Or they want him to throw his saber down, so that his father would snap out of it and save him. Or perhaps they did explain it to him and he still chose to throw down his saber.

    No, he doesn't. He just says "And confront him you will.". That doesn't mean that he had seen it. It could that you will do so sooner or later.

    The powers of persuasion. Not the lightning.

    Obi-wan's already lied to Luke. It isn't unreasonable that he would lie about wanting Luke to killing Vader, thus forcing Luke to look for an alternate solution. Besides, he never said that he had to kill him. Just that he had to confront him. Luke assumes that he has to kill him.

    You're almost getting it.
     
  8. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    No, but Lucas does...so this does not enter into the equation. There's no indication that they're holding off on teaching Luke about lightning for a later date, especially since Palpatine will be killed in this one (per Lucas' knowledge), and at the time, Lucas had no intention of continuing the films beyond ROTJ, where knowledge of lightning might be helpful in future engagements.
     
  9. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    And the Point I am making is that killing isn't very unique. Animals kills, plants can kill, almost everyone and everything can kill.
    You are so fixated on Anakin's absolute uniqueness. HE and only he can do a thing. Not because of anything about who he is as a person, just due to what he is. He is the chosen one, the only being in the Universe that can kill Palpatine. Not due to him being good or bad, powerful or not. He can just because.

    Han was seen killing Greedo, so what?
    Building a prophecy around Han killing Greedo wouldn't make it more significant.
    Nor does adding a prophecy to Anakin killing Palpatine make it more significant than it already is.

    Yes you did, you initially argued that Obi-Wan didn't know that lightning could be blocked by hands, without any proof I might add.
    Now you admit that he might have known but just didn't use it.

    Yes he does, he say quite emphatically that Luke must confront Vader before he is a Jedi and that he WILL confront him. So Yoda knows that part of Luke's future at least.
    Plus he knows that Palpatine is after him and Luke can not hide forever and sooner or later, Luke will have to deal with Palpatine.

    Persuasion? You mean the, "Kill you father and then you'll become my slave until I tire of you and have you killed and replaced by another apprentice." That bit?
    Not too appealing really.

    Palaptine isn't giving Luke any incentive to join him, he is just goading him to get boiling mad.
    Vader is the one who tries to sweeten the deal. Both in ESB, when he offered Luke the chance to rule the galaxy and in RotJ when he suggest that Luke can save his friends if he turns.
    Palpatine offers nothing but slavery.

    And Luke has to avoid falling sure but as soon as Palpatine realizes that Luke won't turn he will try to kill him. Yoda would know that and thus is an idiot for not warning Luke about Palpatine's offensive powers.



    Oh I see, now anything the character says is a lie. Still not proof, still not relevant.



    [/QUOTE]

    And yet you still fail to see my point.
    You argued earlier that Luke got beaten by Palpatine due him being half-trained.
    And that if Luke had been fully trained he could have beaten Palpatine.
    But later you say that Yoda and all the other fully trained Jedi master that fought Palpatine, they all lost because they were not Anakin, ie the chosen one.
    So by your own logic, Luke can NEVER beat Palpatine. It doesn't matter how well trained he is nor how powerful. Since he isn't Anakin, he can never ever win.

    Earlier you gave these criteria for the chosen one.
    But really these don't matter in the slightest.
    Only one criteria matters "Has to be Anakin Skywalker."
    Everything else is totally irrelevant.
    Power, good, bad, all that is not important.

    All that matters is being Anakin Skywalker. If you are, good then you can kill Palpatine and indeed you will at some point. If you are not, sorry, you can never kill Palpatine no matter what you do.

    It removes the importance of who the characters are and only focuses on what they are.

    We could go on and on about this but would probably get nowhere so I'll take my leave from this discussion.

    Bye.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  10. LZM65

    LZM65 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2015

    Be like Yoda how? :confused:
     
  11. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Anakin's uniqueness is that he was born without a father, giving him a strong connection to the Force that no one else has. I never said that killing Palpatine made him unique.

    Anakin being good only matters in that he needs to find the balance within himself, before he can bring balance to the Force. Once Anakin accepts his failures and lets go of everything that he thought mattered the most to him, is he able bring balance. If he had done this in ROTS, he would have been able to bring balance and the dark times would never have happened. And had he been able to let go of Padme, he would have found the strength that he needed to defeat Palpatine. Once he has turned to the dark side, he joins Palpatine and as a result of his injuries and other circumstances, he is able to bring balance when he chooses to save Luke because of the Rule of Two.

    Foreseen. Greedo was nothing but a pissant. Palaptine was the devil incarnate. That makes all the difference.

    It does because it sets Anakin apart from the other Jedi. It establishes that there are dire consequences that weren't apparent to the audience originally. We see that he could do something great, but he chooses not to because he is selfish. It places a burden on both him and Luke, the latter indirectly.

    We're getting confused. I thought we were now talking about Obi-wan knowing to block with a Lightsaber. Obi-wan probably doesn't know that he can block the lightning without a Lightsaber, but he may or may not know that he could with a Lightsaber before Dooku used it.

    Yes, Yoda tells him that he must confront him to pass his trial. But that does not mean that Luke will go right out and fight him, especially since Luke tries to avoid doing so by going to Endor, after telling Obi-wan he won't do it. Yoda cannot see what Luke will or will not do. But he makes it clear that Luke will confront him because he believes that Luke will do it.

    He doesn't know that Luke can hide forever? Sure, he could. Obi-wan and Yoda hide themselves just fine. Nor that Luke won't kill himself rather than go out and face his father. Luke's future is uncertain, just as it was for his father.

    The power of persuasion is what got Palpatine to where he's at. His ability to manipulate people was far greater than the Force. And given that Palpatine managed to turn two Jedi to his side, Yoda would have good reason to warn Luke about that.


    Palpatine offers him the power to save his friends. He just doesn't use Darth Plagueis. He offers to him that he will finish his training and does so by encouraging him to use his feelings to destroy them. That only by using his aggressive feelings can he save his loved ones. Much like how Dooku encouraged Anakin to use his aggressive feelings to destroy him.

    He would warn him before a confrontation with Palpatine. He doesn't know that both Sith Lords are going to be at Endor before he dies and neither he, nor Obi-wan can interfere to warn him once he's at Endor.

    Does Obi-wan say, "You must kill him?" Nope. He just says that he must face him. So Obi-wan doesn't lie. He just lets Luke draw that conclusion that is what they want him to do, so that he can find his own path.

    Right, you're almost getting it. Luke has the same potential that his father had to destroy Palpatine. But because he wasn't trained from birth and because he never spent the time finishing his training properly, Luke cannot destroy Palpatine. He could if he was trained like Obi-wan and Yoda. Obi-wan cannot beat Palpatine, because he is not in his league. Yoda could barely hold his own against him. That's why it falls to Anakin. He's the only one left who can take out Palpatine, but he cannot do it in a straight up fight. He could have before his injuries, but not now. Now, he can only do what he does in order to take him out. The result of choices made by Anakin and Luke is what shapes their destines.

    Be more diligent in his training and be willing to sacrifice his loved ones in order to do what needed to be done.
     
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  12. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Which means Vader was out of Palpatine's league, and yet still managed to destroy him anyways.

    And if Luke had held on to his lightsaber, he might have been able to defeat Palpatine much as Mace almost did before Anakin stepped in. Does this mean Mace was more powerful than Yoda?
     
  13. Davak24

    Davak24 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 15, 2015
    I think it's amazing.
     
  14. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Vader as he is in ROTJ was out of his league, since his power was diminished as Lucas said. Vader was more like Dooku, which is why he wanted to turn Luke since he needed his help. On his own, Vader could fight certain Jedi and beat them single handedly, like we saw in "Rebels". But he couldn't do the kinds of things that he was capable of doing, before his injuries. He was stronger than he was at the end of ROTS, but he wasn't "Superman". He only manages to take out Palpatine here because of it being unexpected and not a straight up fight.


    Palpatine stopped fighting in order to make Anakin choose. That's why he fakes being weakened by the lightning being reflected back, only to spring back to life after Anakin's attack.

    The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness.

    --The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; Page 204

    "(Palpatine is now laying down) But this part where he pretends to lose his power and become weak is something that I added later. Cause this moved the point where Anakin turned to this moment right here."

    --George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.


    Mace got in a lucky kick, but by that point, Palpatine sensed Anakin's approach and quickly came up with a new plan. Mace could barely even hold back against Palpatine's barrage and he had two Lightsabers as it is. So he wasn't helpless, or without options.
     
  15. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    It seems Palpatine isn't the only one who exaggerates...

    "The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives,"

    "The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives,"

    I don't see anything in Lucas's quote to support the interpretation of a "lucky kick."

    And Palpatine exaggerating weakness when Anakin arrives doesn't mean Mace couldn't have finished the job. If Palpatine had to change to Plan B, that means Plan A wasn't working because, as Lucas stated, "The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives,"
     
  16. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012

    Absolutely on the mark. This is almost as good as the claim that "No more training do you require. Already know you that which you need" is a reference to Luke being only "partially" trained.

    And as Samuel Vimes has pointed out.....surely Luke's training makes no difference in terms of whether he could defeat Palpatine, as only Anakin can... (though, to emphasise again, Mace winning runs against the argument that nobody else can)

    Sometimes I get the impression you are talking at cross-purposes with yourself, tbh. And this seems to be a case in point.

    "was never their destiny to defeat them"? Can you come clean about what you mean by "destiny"? Is it what you chooses to do or isn't it? Wouldn't destroying the Sith be the Jedi's "best destiny" in this odd 'Lucasian' use of the word....but then how could it "never" have been their destiny? Do they have a choice in this or not?

    Apparently they use the clone army because they don't have a choice, but then you reverse on that and decry that they did have a choice but that they were arrogant and complacent.... Well, firstly, do they not have a choice about being arrogant and complacent, and if they had choices then how could it "never" have been their "destiny" to destroy the Sith?

    This seems, to me, to be a whole load of philosophically empty, counter-evidential guph.
     
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  17. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Agreed....just because they didn't accomplish it doesn't mean they were incapable of accomplishing it. Choice doesn't prove ability. Anakin's poor choices throughout the trilogy weren't indicative of his final destiny....they just postponed it.

    And to Mace's "lucky kick"...
    "Gilliard explains how he's rated the various Star Wars swordsmem: "On Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nie [out of ten]. On this film, Obi is an eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up with Sidious. Once you get to eight, you have a Pandora's Box. You could go either way with it. The way not to go is to the Dark Side. But it would tempt you, because that would jump you right past the others. So you need to arrive at level eight at the right age - not as young as Anakin. That young, the Dark Side is just too tempting. - The Making of ROTS

    Even Anakin could have defeated Palpatine in ROTS: You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat-up, he could have beat the Emperor." - The Making of ROTS

    And he was actually supposed to defeat Palpatine in ROTS: "All of it is about a journey of self-discovery anyway. That is the essence of what all the Star Wars characters are about. This particular saga is just the saga of one family and what happens when one person in the family does something horrible to the people he loves. What are the circumstances, what are the ramifications, what happens to the rest of the family? I think George has always envisioned this as one big 12-hour film where you can sit down and watch this interesting thing happen. This saga of how somebody takes the wrong course and what it does for the rest of his life and then ultimately how does he redeem himself?" (5/20/00). - McCallum

    Afterwards, Anakin actually becomes weaker: Palpatine will ultimately be disappointed with Anakin, after he's been permanently maimed by Obi-wan. "He's less than what you bargained for," Lucas says. "By the end of the film, he's just a man in a shell. So when this young kid [Luke] comes along..." - The Making of ROTS

    And therefore needs Luke's assistance to accomplish his destiny.

    "Sam Davatchi's website reports that George Lucas told a reporter for Studio Magazine that Anakin is indeed the one who brings balance to the force. In this interview, Lucas said that Anakin vanquished the Emperor and brought balance to the Force, although he did need help from Luke to do so. In addition, Lucas said that Anakin is the only person who could do that, because he is the only one who had enough power and was close enough to the emperor to destroy him. As pointed out by Cinescape Online, this fits into the following statement made by Lucas in the Making of Episode I book: "The mystery around [the chosen one] theory is that we don't know yet whether the chosen one is a good or bad person. He is to bring balance to the Force; but at this point, we don't know what side of the Force needs to be balanced out." (6/18/99)." -1. In general, what will the New Trilogy be about?
     
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  18. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    He has Palpatine down, but not out.


    No, it just means that Palpatine decided to use this moment to turn Anakin.

    Mace having Palpatine in the corner doesn't mean that the fight is over, nor that anyone could beat Palpatine. It just means that Anakin walked in there and Palpatine used that to his advantage.

    No, it means that Samuel Vimes was talking about one thing and I was another.

    Destiny has always had two meanings in the Saga and I have said as much. The best destiny is figuring out who you are meant to be. Luke's best destiny is being a Jedi, but he has different choices as to what he wants to do. He can be a pilot without Jedi training, he can be a farmer or he can be a Dark Lord of the Sith. He has to figure out who he wants to be. Which is what the OT is about for him. That's why the Jedi and Sith see different things for Luke. Anakin knows what his best destiny is, which is to help people. But he thinks that the only way to accomplish his goals is to become a Sith.

    Then there is the greater destiny which is the thing that you are meant to do. The things that can be foreseen which includes Anakin destroying Palpatine. But when faced with this, Anakin chooses to run from it because of the price that he will have to pay for it. I have never said that there wasn't two concepts of destiny.

    You're missing my point. From their point of view, the Jedi felt that they had no choice but to use the Clone Army. The Republic abolished its standing army a thousand years ago and because Palpatine had the Senate in such disarray, that they couldn't even decide to defend themselves or not, the Jedi found themselves boxed in and bound by their oath to protect the Republic through compromise. They couldn't bring themselves to stand off on the sidelines and not fight in the war, or fight independent of the Republic. They always had a choice to do so, but they couldn't bring themselves to make that choice.
     
  19. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Just to be clear, Mace has Palpatine down because Mace is on the same level as Palpatine. Mace is absolutely capable of killing Palpatine.

    Which was a good idea, because even Lucas says Mace was winning.
     
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  20. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012
    You see, it's that term; "meant to" as in "the thing you were meant to do". By whom? By whose plan? "Meant to" is a reference to an almighty, the invisible guiding hand. Nothing is "meant to" be, things happen; sometimes because of physical forces over which we have no control (Earthquakes, volcanoes, asteroids etc.) all of which have perfectly explicable physical forces that stand behind them. They are not the actions of da gads, or an almighty agency. Other things happen because people choose to act in particular ways given circumstances that they find themselves in. That is agency, what people choose to do.

    So here is the great disconnect between the OT and the PT. The OT is ALL about choice. The events that occur, the outcomes, come about about through the choices that the characters make. Full stop. The PT introduces this notion of "meant to", you know the aspect of destiny that you have (actually) been vehemently denying is in the PT. The PT isn't about choices..it's about the idea that some things are "meant to " be - especially in the way that you describe it (as in - only Anakin can kill Palpatine (because it is "meant to" be, it is "foreseen". Or the Jedi could not destroy the Sith because they were not "meant to")

    It is such a massive disjoint in the contextual nature of the story-telling.
     
  21. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Just like in the PT.

    OT characters were talking about destiny long before the PT even existed.

    It is all about choices, to the point where the audience is repeatedly hammered with the concept, making it especially difficult to miss:

    "This path has been placed before you. The choice is yours alone."

    "You must choose!"
     
  22. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Not quite,

    In the PT, or at least as DS sees it, destiny is very rigid and absolute.
    When it comes to the killing of Palpatine, which is a supremely important task apparently.
    Then the issue of choice is not so relevant as Destiny has made Palpatine unkillable by everyone except Anakin. Mace, Yoda, Luke, they could choose to try and kill Palpatine as much as they want but they can NEVER do it. Because "God" has decreed that Anakin and ONLY Anakin can kill Palpatine. No alternatives exist. If Yoda makes the choice to kill Palpatine, destiny will step in and stop him as he isn't allowed to. Only Anakin can do this.

    And not because of power as Vader is weaker in RotJ and yet he manages to do it.
    Rotj Vader sure seemed weaker than PT Yoda and Mace. And yet they can not kill Palpatine despite being stronger.

    This type of Destiny is far more controlling and exact and leaves very little room for choice.
    The only one who has any kind of choice is Anakin. And Anakin is basically a Divinely created killer, whose only function in life is to kill Palpatine and until he does, no one else can.

    The OT does make the point that destiny and fate isn't always as final as some think. Palpatine thought that Luke's destiny was to become his apprentice, he was wrong. Obi-Wan, Yoda and Palpatine all thought that turning to the Dark Side was forever, they were wrong.

    Luke has "it is your destiny" thrown in his face a lot but he goes ahead and follows his heart instead and accomplishes what no one else thought possible. He isn't a slave to fate, he tries to make his own when he is able. And he shows Vader that he doesn't have to be a slave either and Vader can break his chains and return to the light again.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  23. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Palpatine also "thought" Vader couldn't be turned. I think Palpatine was playing a lot of head games with both Skywalkers. He'll say whatever he needs to say to coerce others.

    "My son is with them."
    The Emperor's brow furrowed less than a millimeter. His voice remained cool, unruffled, slightly curious. "Are you sure?"
    "I felt him, my master." It was almost a taunt. He knew the Emperor was frightened of young Skywalker, afraid of his power. Only together could Vader and the Emperor hope to pull the Jedi Knight over to the dark side. He said it again, emphasizing his own singularity. "I felt him."
    "Strange, that I have not," the Emperor murmured, his eyes becoming slits. They both knew the Force wasn't all-powerful-and no one was infallible with its use. It had everything to do with awareness, with vision. Certainly, Vader and his son were more closely linked than was the Emperor with young Skywalker-but, in addition, the Emperor was now aware of a crosscurrent he hadn't read before, a buckle in the Force he couldn't quite understand. "I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader."
    "They are clear, my master." He knew his son's presence, it galled him and fueled him and lured him and howled in a voice of its own. "Then you must go to the Sanctuary Moon and wait for him," Emperor Palpatine said simply. As long as things were clear, things were clear.
    "He will come to me?" Vader asked skeptically. This was not what he felt. He felt drawn.
    "Of his own free will," the Emperor assured him. It must be of his own free will, else all was lost. A spirit could not be coerced into corruption, it had to be seduced. It had to participate actively. It had to crave. Luke Skywalker knew these things, and still he circled the black fire, like a cat. Destinies could never be read with absolute certainty-but Skywalker would come, that was clear. "I have foreseen it. His compassion for you will be his undoing." Compassion had always been the weak belly of the Jedi, and forever would be. It was the ultimate vulnerability. The Emperor had none. "The boy will come to you, and you will then bring him before me."
    Vader bowed low. "As you wish." - ROTJ Novelization
     
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  24. darthtimetraveller

    darthtimetraveller Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2015
    I've had a theory ever since seeing TPM for the first time back in the summer of '99, that the prophecy has not been fulfilled yet, or at least not yet in it's entirety. My idea for the prophecy was that the origin of the darkside would be destroyed. The very reason for the great fall/schism would be discovered and destroyed/defeated. Perhaps this wellspring of the darkside would be neutralized or even the GFFA's devil himself would be defeated in a final battle with the Light. The Great Eschaton of Star Wars so-to-speak.
     
  25. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Right, but as Lucas also said, he couldn't beat Palpatine. He can only compete with him. Same with Yoda.

    The thing is that we don't know if there is a God or a group of deities. That's kinda the point. Our actions could be governed by an unseen force. Even when we assume that we have free will, it could be part of a divine plan.

    That's because Lucas is using two forms of destiny. Finding one's destiny, which is figuring out the path that you wish to take and the greater destiny which is what effect your decisions will have on a much larger scale. Anakin's greater destiny was to destroy Palpatine, but he refused to follow that path because of what he would lose in the process. He still has to make a choice to be a Jedi and thus fulfill his destiny, or he can choose to be a Sith and not fulfill his destiny. It still comes down to his choices. The story for Luke was about figuring out who he was going to be; a pilot, a farmer, a Rebel, a Jedi Knight or a Sith Lord. His actions would dictate his future, just as Anakin's did.