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Saga The Prophecy of a Chosen One ... do you like it ? ( with a Poll )

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Saga Explorer, Aug 28, 2015.

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Do you like the concept of the Chosen One and the Prophecy ?

  1. Yes , I find it great .

    59 vote(s)
    34.5%
  2. Yes , I just like it .

    28 vote(s)
    16.4%
  3. I could do without it , but it's here so I accept it .

    37 vote(s)
    21.6%
  4. I'm indifferent , but it would be better without it .

    6 vote(s)
    3.5%
  5. No , I don't like it .

    26 vote(s)
    15.2%
  6. I am wholeheartedly against it .

    15 vote(s)
    8.8%
  1. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Luke would have to start the whole thing anew...but that doesn't mean that wiping out the Jedi was a condition of the prophecy.

    Then again, looking at TFA, it doesn't look like Luke's been running around training little padawans for the last 30 years, so there you go.
     
  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    Like I've said for years, Christ doesn't have the exclusive on miraculous births. He just has the better press agent. Hercules isn't a Christ figure, but his story is that of the hero's journey of myth and was the son of Zeus. The legend of Hercules pre-dates Christ by about two hundred years, or so.

    [​IMG]

    So, I take it you're spoiler free?
     
  3. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    LOL.....Pretty much....I'm just going based on what's on the trailers.

    ([EDIT] I guess I should have specified Jedi padawans. ;) )
     
  4. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    I had to be sure. Come back in a month and we'll talk.
     
  5. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Clearly we have different ideas on what should be considered "the key part of that statement".

    Unfortunately none of the information in canon about the prophecy says any such thing. It's just what some people want to believe. I don't know that the prophecy said anything at all about Jedi.

    Who cares? Are Jedi thoughts supposed to be part of the prophecy?

    The lesson to take away from a prophecy being fulfilled is to not trust prophecies?

    [​IMG]

    His plan was obviously set in motion a long time ago. In the absence of Anakin it goes down whenever he wants it to.

    That doesn't make any sense. If you want to know why a Sith does something, you would have to find a way to get inside that Sith's head. Perhaps you think Sidious left "Why I Do ****" pamphlets all over the place and the Jedi were just being lazy in not scooping them up.

    Who's supposedly running the government here, the Sith or the Jedi?

    Already did that. They even made a movie about it!

    Ah, yes. The hysterical "everybody empty your pockets right now" tactic. But given that nobody in that group was actually a Sith, it wouldn't have accomplished anything. And wasn't this supposed to be a list of things that maybe, just maybe, would have allowed the Jedi to thwart Sidious? So by that standard it fails.

    Or they get to use it against you.

    "If he had been born in the Republic, we would have identified him early."

    Ha ha no.

    Where's the evidence of this?
     
  6. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Nute Gunray met with Dooku, who was already working for Palpatine and had assured them that they would never go to prison. Hence after four trials in the supreme court, the Federation was never convicted of any wrongdoing for the Naboo invasion. The Sith made sure of that.

    The Jedi did, but got nowhere as there was no way to prove that Sifo-Dyas was not involved due to his death and the fact that Dooku had covered up the trail for the most part. But then Sifo-Dyas Lightsaber was found, which lead the Jedi to re-investigate and find out that Tyranus was really Dooku.



    But the Jedi realize that they cannot do anything other than to win the war, before Dooku and Sidious put their plan into motion.

    The Jedi do not have that authority. And whoever has a high Midichlorian count doesn't mean that they're a Sith, since anyone could have a high enough count and not be trained in the ways of the Force. Besides, in the old EU, that did happen and that person was eliminated before they could figure out who was a Sith. What the Jedi did was keep tabs on the Senate and look for whoever was suspicious which turned out to be Palpatine and we saw what happened then.

    That's not how it works. The Jedi's ability to sense the future and the dark side in people has diminished, aided by the fact that Palpatine is concealing his true emotions from the Jedi. He has blurred the line enough that the Jedi don't suspect that he is evil until just before Anakin reveals that he is more than just suspicious, but is Darth Sidious. When Mace finally confronts Sidious, he senses that he is like a black shadow. The darkness is so strong and deep within him, that it was staggering.
     
  7. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012

    Yeah....this, in itself, is a major sticking point for me. Palpatine gets elected on the platform of defeating corruption in the Republic (along with the sympathy vote of course)...what else could his platform be, given the reason for the vote of no-confidence in Valorum.

    Then...his first act is to advise Padmé that nothing can really be done about the invasion of Naboo (you know...the very inaction that lead to the vote of no-confidence). In AOTC, and even later in ROTS he is still employing the "bureaucrats" that he advised Padmé were "in the pay of the TF"...and, under his watch the TF get away with the invasion of Naboo (which, I'll say again, Palpatine was willing to do nothing about) and start up a separatist movement who appear to be inciting military action against the Republic.

    So...given his complete inaction on corruption (what he was elected to combat) and that the situation seems to have become far worse (war)....why in the name of the Force do the Senators trust him with emergency powers?...(he's still employing staff in the employ of the TF....that under his watch has gone unpunished for an invasion of a defenceless planet.....a situation about which he was unwilling to take action)? Why does Padmé describe him as her most trusted advisor (he's employing staff in the pay of the TF...as he told her, he was unwilling to take action against the TF...which Padmé ousted Valorum for..and under his watch the TF got off scott-free).

    And...why, having watched her defenceless planet invaded by the TF and using the Gungan army in order to win back her planet, does she think that not having an army is somehow going to act against an invasion by the Separatists....who include the TF who invaded her (defenceless) planet?

    This galaxy is peopled by some really, really dumb people.
     
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  8. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    The real world is also full of dumb people, which is why we're in the sorry state that we are in. Somebody should nuke the planet from orbit, just to be sure. Remember, Lucas was influenced by human history.

    "This idea of a democracy being given up and in many cases being given up in a time of crisis, you see it throughout history whether it's Julius Caesar, or Napoleon, or Adolf Hitler, you see these democracies under a lot of pressure, in a crisis situation, who end up giving up a lot of the freedoms they have and a lot of the checks and balances to somebody with a strong authority to help get them through the crisis. It's not the first time a politician has created a war to try to stay in office."

    --George Lucas, interviewed by Leonard Maltin, 1999.


    "To get an idea of the kind of man Palpatine is in the prequel trilogy you need to read about the Roman Emperor, Julius Caesar, and his spectacular rise to power in Rome."

    --George Lucas, Leonard Maltin interview, 1999

    One of the larger issues that surfaced in the telling of Anakin's fall to the dark side and his rise to becoming a corrupt figure was that of the fall of democracy at the hands of the very people who initially fought oppression.

    "You have the personal issue of Anakin and his turn to the dark side, but then the children later bring him back to being a human being," Lucas says. "But the larger issue is that you've given up your democracy, and that the bad guys never took it -- it was handed to them. That theme was there 30 years ago which came out of the Vietnam War and Nixon wanting to change the rules so he could get a third term.

    I'm a big history buff and I was really into Caesar at the time," Lucas recalls. "I always wanted to know why the Roman Senate gave Caesar's nephew a dictatorship after they had gotten rid of Caesar. Why after the revolution in France did they create an Emperor? Why did the Germans after they had a Democracy after World War I, turn it into a dictatorship? Those were my initial questions 30 years ago."

    --George Lucas, Star Wars Homing Beacon #142.


    So human history is filled with people making bad decisions and trusting politicians who weren't always trustworthy and always had their best interests at heart. In the case of the GFFA, Palpatine's true motive was to get people to support his totalitarian government. So he starts off by showing how ineffectual the Republic was, bound by its own rules and morals regarding law and politics, by exploiting a tense situation. Then he shows that while there is always a strong leader, said leader is handcuffed by the rules put in place long ago. These checks and balances hurt rather than help and so Palpatine pushes things towards a situation where he will be given political power necessary to bypass the Senate. For instance, the US President has certain executive powers that allow him to bypass Congress, but there are also limit to prevent the President from going too far and becoming a tyrant. The Senate is willing to give Palpatine power because most of its members are weak willed, spineless bastards who cannot think for themselves and are unable to pull their heads out of their rear ends, in order to protect themselves.

    What's more, the reason Padme opposes the Military Creation Act is that she is almost completely a pacifist. Not a total one, but enough one of that she dislikes engaging in war and would fight against the use of an army to solve problems. Even in the wake of the Naboo incident, she still believed in a democratic and peaceful solution. She was truly an idealist and part of the problem. An unwillingness to fight to protect yourself will ultimately end in being trampled. She could not adapt well enough to the situation and she started to pay an emotional toll, well before Anakin's betrayal. The Republic itself was also problematic because it gave up too much of its security in favor of freedoms, and without a balance, the whole thing fell apart and the Sith exploited that. In the end, in the old EU, the New Republic still had a standing military following the conclusion of the Galactic Civil War.
     
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  9. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    Yes, because the prophecy turned out to be a Monkey’s Paw.
    It goes down, but whether it succeeds or fails is up in the air. Anakin is key to the plan’s success.
    Or you launch an investigation. Que bono? Who benefits? What do the Sith get out of this arrangement? Who most directly benefited from the whole invasion thing?
    You don’t think the Jedi have some pull? Presumably, the Jedi would have some kind of functioning relationship with the prosecutors in this system.
    Wait! That was an investigation into who ordered the clones? That’s gotta be the worst investigation…ever. Not just in movie history but in the history of investigating things. No one thought, “Hey, isn’t it incredibly convenient that we stumble across this great big army just a few days before the first galactic war in 1,000 years breaks out? And that all this happens when the leading anti-war Senator has been forced aside when the crucial vote is cast…and a complete and utter tool takes her place and grants the leader dictatorial powers? In fact, the investigation into the assassination attempts on that very Senator’s life led us to this army. Something is wrong here.” Nope, that thought never crosses the minds of our genius protagonists.
    Yeah, nobody in that group is a Sith…except for the leader.

    So the Emperor wasn’t born in the Republic? Otherwise, they would’ve identified him early, right? They would’be taken him away from his parents and indoctrinated him as a Jedi?

    On second thought, maybe the Jedi did need to be eliminated and given a fresh start.
    Presumably, the Emperor’s Force clouding has a source and emanates from somewhere- most likely himself.
     
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  10. SW Saga Fan

    SW Saga Fan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 19, 2015
  11. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012


    NONE of those examples are relevant to the situation in the PT and with Palpatine. Nobody gave Augustus a dictatorship...there were a number of wars that occurred after Caesar's assassination and, with his army surrounding the Senators, Auugustus told them how this was going to work.

    Caesar didn't overthrow democracy because...the Roman Republic was not a democracy. Napoleon overthrew the revolution by use of the army, that he lead. The Germans had a 'democracy' imposed upon them along with crippling reparations which destroyed their economy...it was a failed state.
     
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  12. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    Which leads to another problem. Why are the green guys still working for the evil hologram who clearly duped them and set them up? Why were they taking orders from the evil hologram in the first place? Imagine if I Skyped the CEO of Citigroup while wearing a ski mask.

    ME: I can help you manipulate the government into lowering your tax rate.
    CEO: Who are you? Why should I trust you and what do you stand to gain out of all this?
    ME: None of that is important. Just obey my commands!

    Yeah, that’d work out real well. Hell, if I were the Emperor, I would’ve quietly eliminated these losers long before the start of the Clone War. God knows they’d be more than happy to reveal the scheme for a (significantly) reduced sentence.

    I’m not talking about the cartoon that retroactively fills up the movies’ plot holes. I’m specifically talking about JUST the movies.
    Again, I’m not talking about books that retroactively explain this stuff. I’m talking about the movies. If it’s not in the movies, it’s not in the movies…period.
    It’s pretty clearly implied that the Emperor is responsible for fogging up the Force in order to hide his activities. Also, if I’m a Jedi, and I sense that someone is deliberately blocking my ability to use the Force to sense their emotions, I’d get pretty suspicious pretty quickly. I mean, we know that Yoda can sense Anakin’s emotions even when he’s in an entirely different country, so clearly, the Emperor hasn’t blocked their ability to sense the emotions of EVERYONE.
     
  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    And if they had not accepted Anakin, it would have been annihilation. No Chosen One to destroy the Sith. No Luke to destroy the Death Star. No one to pass on the Jedi teachings to a new generation.

    The plan didn't need him and would succeed regardless. The only thing Vader was, was a giant middle finger to the Jedi and the Force. He was just a bonus for Palpatine.

    They did launch an investigation and came up with nothing. It never occurred to them that Darth Sidious controlled the Senate, much less was Sheev Palpatine. Even Dooku told Obi-wan that the Council would never believe that the Sith were in control without their knowing it.

    DOOKU: "What if I told you that the Republic... was now under the control of the Dark Lord of the Sith?"

    OBI-WAN: "No, that's not possible. TheJedi would be aware of it."

    DOOKU: "The dark side of the Force has clouded their vision, my friend. Hundreds of senators are now under the influence... of a Sith lord called Darth Sidious."

    OBI-WAN: "I don't believe you."

    DOOKU: "The viceroy of the Trade Federation was once in league with this Darth Sidious... but he was betrayed ten years ago by the Dark Lord. He came to me for help. He told me everything."


    OBI-WAN: " Do you believe what Count Dooku said... about Sidious controlling the Senate? It doesn't feel right."

    YODA: "Joined the dark side Dooku has. Mmm. Lies, deceit... creating mistrust are his ways now."


    OBI-WAN: "Tyranus? You are the man called Tyranus?"

    DOOKU: "I told you everything you needed to know on Geonosis all those years ago, Kenobi."

    They might have, but Palpatine had money to buy them off and if they couldn't be bought, they would be eliminated and replaced with those who would do what he wanted.

    MACE: "Master Kenobi, remind the Council of what you discovered regarding Master Sifo-Dyas before the start of the Clone War."

    OBI-WAN: "My investigation of the bounty hunter Jango Fett led to Kamino. The Kaminoans recounted that it was Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas who ordered the production of a Clone Army."

    YODA: "Without the consent of the Council or the Senate, he did this."

    MACE: "Prior to the blockade of Naboo, Sifo-Dyas sat on this Council until we judged his ideas to be too extreme. At the time, the Council rejected those ideas."

    PLO KOON: "Indeed, he said he foresaw a great conflict and that the Republic would need to raise an army."

    OBI-WAN: "Well, it's not the first time we've been wrong recently, is it?"

    YODA: "The creation of the Clone Army, kept secret from us Sifo-Dyas did. How this was done we know not, yet now a new piece of the puzzle we have. Perhaps clarity it will bring us, yes."

    Thus the Jedi did believe that Sifo-Dyas, prior to this death, had done this and enlisted the help of Tyranus, but the Jedi have no idea who he was. Not until later.

    The Jed don't steal children. They offer parents a choice; enrollment in the Jedi Order or staying with their families and living a normal life. Many parents have chosen to deny enrollment. But the Jedi had a codex of all those who were tested and kept on file. Palpatine was taken in by Plagueis, but he was born on Naboo and apparently not tested, nor cataloged.
     
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  14. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    edit: double post.
     
  15. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    Without Anakin, Samuel L. Jackson doesn’t fall into the Emperor’s trap, and as stated, the Jedi might actually do something instead of twiddling their thumbs waiting for their Chosen One to save them..
    Yet the movie shows that he needs the Jedi to attack him in order to “justify” Order 666, thus, he needs an insider who can (unwittingly) help him spring the trap. Granted, the Emperor is very good at adjusting to changing circumstances (as shown in THE PHANTOM MENACE, when he manipulates Natalie Portman into making him the leader), but he’s not invincible. Jackson probably would’ve killed him if Anakin had needed to take a bathroom break on the way over to his office, or if traffic had delayed him by 5 minutes or so.
    What investigation? They never investigated the identity of the second Sith (at least not onscreen). Hell, even Yoda is just acting incredibly stupid here. “Mmm. Lies, deceit... creating mistrust are his ways now.” Yeah, just dismiss all that, Yoda. I mean, it’s not as if someone used the Trade Federation in order to attain a position of power, 10 years ago, and then took advantage of the Clone War to acquire near-dictatorial powers.
    Just like he did with Natalie Portman and Jimmy Smits, right?
    I have no memory of this being said in any of the films. I do remember this line, though:

    “They say Master Sifo-Dyas placed an order for a clone army at the request of the Senate almost 10 years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that.

    The Jedi clearly seem to believe that he did NOT order the Army, despite whatever EU material you’re relying on.
    Again, next to none of this is actually stated in the films. All we know is that it’s stated that Force-sensitives are identified early and indoctrinated at an incredibly young age (how the hell is Little Baby Annie “too old”?). At least in HARRY POTTER, they wait until you’re about 12 or so, and they don’t force you to live a life of complete emotionless detachment amidst an order of creepy weirdos who think that love will cause you to become evil.
     
  16. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    No. The prophecy was accurate. The conclusion is obvious, nonsensical contrarianism aside.

    Wrong. The clones work the way they are designed to. Nothing about that was left up in the air.

    Nope. The plan predates Anakin's first appearance and the concept of Order 66 has nothing to do with him at all. It works the same way in both an Anakin-inclusive universe and an Anakin-free universe.

    There are various references to Jedi investigation in the film; they describe actively trying to locate and determine the identity of the Sith; we see a Jedi investigation in progress. How does one ignore all these indicators and instead come to the conclusion "the Jedi don't investigate"? Do you believe that nothing in this universe happens except what you're shown on screen? Does Yoda go to the bathroom? And of course there's another problem with this poorly-thought-out concept: it presumes that Palpatine has no concept of covering his tracks and has carelessly left a clear trail for the Jedi to follow. If they had only tried, instant trophy!

    TPM and AOTC don't seem to bear that out.

    Isn't it weird when just having a thought doesn't actually provide any new information about anything?

    How did you get the printout of their thoughts? Is this some super-secret manuscript from the Lucas ranch?

    Exactly. And once again, as usual, the Jedi should have aced the test by the simple method of knowing the answers beforehand.

    Not according to the prophecy, which seems far less frustrated by lack of omniscience. So who exactly needs such a thing? Disgruntled fans?

    Or maybe... the Force? And is this guy supposed to be so stupid that he does this while standing in front of the Jedi?

    Wrong. The Clone Wars is not EU. It is currently on the same level of canon as the films. In TCW the Jedi believe that Sifo-Dyas ordered the army, and in other canon material it is said that he did make the initial order. I guess impressions aren't any more magically guaranteed to be correct in SW than in any other setting.
     
  17. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    As I said, a Monkey’s Paw.

    Then why did the Emperor wait until Anakin “witnessed” Jackson attempting to “assassinate” him before putting Order 666 into motion.
    Order 666 only works because of the whole idea of a Jedi coup. The Emperor uses Anakin to lend legitimacy to his claims of an attempted coup.
    Presumably, someone PAID the cloners. I’m willing to bet that they didn’t just say, “Yes, we’ll create this great big army for you…and you can just pay us whenever you want. 10, 20, 30 years, doesn’t matter.” Even Inspector Clouseau would at least know to look through the financial records. This simple idea is never given even a cursory mention.
    You mean to tell me that “the guardians of peace and justice” “for over 1,000 generations” had no prosecutors willing to work with them? Even though a rebel insurrection can gain sympathy in the legislature of a fascist dictatorship just 20 years later in this universe (“The Rebellion will continue to gain support in the Imperial Senate.”)? That’s logic.
    It’s called a suspicion. That’s how investigations work. You suspect something, you investigate it, and you gather evidence.
    If they did think it, they never acted on it. Seriously, these guys make Frank Drebin look like Sherlock Holmes. When it comes to investigating, these damned Jedi are about on the same level as Shaggy from SCOOBY-DOO. “Zoinks! A Sith Lord, Scoob!”
    Or just anyone who doesn’t particularly like a group of self-righteous idiots who forcibly separate toddlers from their parents and indoctrinate them into believing that emotion is evil. Less “guardians of peace and justice” and more “Vulcan extremist zealot monks minus the logic”.

    Except for the fact that he blatantly does use this power when Yoda is literally sitting right across the table from him.

    EMPEROR: Master Yoda? Do you really think it will lead to war?
    YODA: Hmm, the dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see, the future is.
    a) Canon is a joke. Anything not in the films is EU by definition. The entire concept of canon is nothing more than a bad joke. I only have one rule regarding canon: **** canon! NOTE: I ain’t just talkin’ STAR WARS here. This applies to EVERY major franchise. Canon is a bad joke, nothing more, whether it’s STAR WARS, STAR TREK, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, DOCTOR WHO, GAME OF THRONES, BLAKES 7, BATTLESTAR GALACTICA, BABYLON 5, CONAN THE BARBARIAN, Marvel, HARRY POTTER, or even ****ing TWILIGHT.

    b) The movies supersede the kids’ cartoon. In CLONES, the Jedi clearly don’t believe that he ordered the army. Nothing in SITH contradicts that.
     
  18. DaveyWanKenobi

    DaveyWanKenobi Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 2015
    I'm kinda indifferent to the prophecy. I like it sometimes, and dislike it others. Not because it's too fantasy trope or anything, but just because of how it was handled poorly across the PT, imo. The council doesn't believe that mumbo jumbo--no wait, The council is convinced beyond a doubt Anakin is the chosen one---No,wait again! A prophecy that misread, could have been...

    It kinda felt like Lucas didn't really know how his own characters should feel about the prophecy. And, while it did fit perfectly fine with the OT, it felt a little cheap cuz we all knew how it ended already.

    Don't love it. Don't hate it. Indifferent.
     
  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Ah, but you're overlooking a few things. First, Augustus was seen as the lesser of two evils by the Senate, who had wanted to get rid of Mark Antony. Augustus then worked with the enemies of Julius Caeser, who attempted to portray Antony as a threat to the Republic. All of this while Augustus built up his army. Sound familiar? Palpatine seized control by setting Valorum up to fail, while secretly building an army. Once in power, Augustus was given propraetor imperium, which allowed his troops to be deemed legal. Palpatine was given Emergency Powers under the Emergency Powers Act, thus making the Clone Army legal. Augustus sent his troops to help at Gallorum and Mutina, just as Palpatine let the Jedi take the Clone Army to Geonosis. The Senate had given power to Augustus under duress, but before that moment, they had an opportunity to be free of the rule of someone like Augustus, following the death of Julius Caesar, but chose to give power to another.

    No, it wasn't. However, Lucas was using a generalization to make a point.

    Ah, but again, you're overlooking a few things. Napoleon was able to gain control because the Directory was unpopular with the French populace following the War of the Second Coalition, where France suffered a number of defeats. The Republic was also bankrupted by the war. Napoleon did take part in a coup, which is not much different from Palpatine's own coup, only by using the Trade Federation's invasion of Naboo to force a vote of No Confidence. Later on, Napoleon was able to gain enough votes to give him his role as dictator. Palpatine was given Emergency Powers and then additional powers until he, like Napoleon, was able to declare a New Order.

    Right. Because of that, they were more than willing to give Hitler his spot due in part to how he was able to persuade many to his side, due in part to his charisma. Then President Hindenburg appointed Hitler as Chancellor and a month later a state of emergency was declared, which wiped out the Constitutional civil liberties and combined with the Enabling Act of 1933, ended the Weimar Republic and Hitler had his power.

    Lucas combined various bits of historical fact and created an amalgamation that he used to create Sheev Palpatine.

    Except, as we saw, the Jedi Posse were going to Palpatine's office to force him to surrender his Emergency Powers, when Anakin intercepted Mace and told him what he just found out.

    MACE: "I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi. The dark side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor."

    Kl-ADI-MUNDI: "If he does not give up his Emergency Powers after the destruction of Grievous, then he should be removed from office."

    MACE: "The Jedi Council would have to take control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition . . ."

    YODA: "To a dark place this line of thought will carry us. Hmmmmm. . . . great care we must take."


    ANAKIN: "Master Windu, I must talk to you."

    MACE: "What is it, Skywalker? We are in a hurry. We have just received word that Obi-Wan has destroyed General Grievous. We are on our way to make sure the Chancellor returns Emergency Powers back to the Senate."

    So Anakin wasn't necessary here. The Council was already going to force Palpatine into a corner, which was precisely what he wanted.

    Or Palpatine creates a different scenario, much less uses his second Lightsaber to kill Mace.

    The Council did investigate, but we're talking about a galaxy wide search. That's called "Looking for a needle in a haystack". As to the rest, the Jedi refused to believe that the Sith had control of the Senate because they would know it. They believe that the Sith invaded Naboo to cause problems which would lead to war, which it did. It never occurred to them that Palpatine, whom they had trusted and couldn't sense that he was evil, was the mastermind. The Jedi were waiting for the Sith to act openly as they had in the past. They never thought that the Sith would use politics to their advantage and orchestrate their rise to power through legal means, rather than taking it directly as they had before.

    The cartoon is not EU. It never was. Lucas himself said that because he had control over it, it was canon. He himself was involved in creating stories and signed off on everything.

    "Now these three different pillars don't always match, but the movies and TV shows are all under my control and they are consistent within themselves."

    --George Lucas, Total Magazine interview, 2008.

    As to the rest, the Jedi don't know everything about what happened to Sifo-Dyas. They know that he was assigned to Felucia, but he had been killed and his body cremated by the locals. In truth, he had been killed by Dooku, who had assumed his identity.

    SILMAN: "Sifo-Dyas? He died. Died, died, died, died. Tricked, we were. The Pykes are not to be trusted. Oh, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. But the Pykes were not the ones. No, no, the Pykes were not the reason."

    ANAKIN: "Who was responsible?"

    SILMAN: "Someone powerful, someone who who wanted to be Sifo-Dyas."

    The rule is that Jedi candidates are brought in at a young age. Younger than Anakin, who was nine. The Younglings seen in AOTC and ROTS, were between four and five. Young enough to not have attachments to their parents. It isn't creepy to not have attachments to people.

    "The key part of this scene ultimately is Anakin saying "I'm not going to let this happen again." We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the dark side because the dark side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side which is the dark side, but ultimately it would be your undoing. But it's that need for power and the need for power in order to satisfy your greed to keep things and to not let go of things and to allow the natural course of life to go on, which is that things come and go, and to be able to accept the changes that happen around you and not want to keep moments forever frozen in time."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

    "The scene in the garage here, we begin to see that what he's really upset about is the fact that he's not powerful enough. That if he had more power, he could've kept his mother. He could've saved her and she could've been in his life. That relationship could've stayed there if he'd have been just powerful enough. He's greedy in that he wants to keep his mother around, he's greedy in that he wants to become more powerful in order to control things in order to keep the things around that he wants. There's a lot of connections here with the beginning of him sliding into the dark side. And it also shows his jealousy and anger at Obi-Wan and blaming everyone else for his inability to be as powerful as he wants to be, which he hears that he will be, so here he sort of lays out his ambition and you'll see later on his ambition and his dialogue here is the same as Dooku's. He says "I will become more powerful than every Jedi." And you'll hear later on Dooku will say "I have become more powerful than any Jedi." So you're going start to see everybody saying the same thing. And Dooku is kind of the fallen Jedi who was converted to the Dark Side because the other Sith Lord didn't have time to start from scratch, and so we can see that that's where this is going to lead which is that it is possible for a Jedi to be converted. It is possible for a Jedi to want to become more powerful, and control things. Because of that, and because he was unwilling to let go of his mother, because he was so attached to her, he committed this terrible revenge on the Tusken Raiders."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

    "The Jedi are trained to let go. They're trained from birth," he continues, "They're not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can't form attachments. So what all these movies are about is: greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody. And the ultimate state of greed is the desire to cheat death."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 213

    The Force is a power that can work on its own, but it can be fueled by emotion and raw, negative emotions will result in one turning to the dark side. The Jedi must constantly train themselves to love, but not become attached.

    Except Anakin didn't testify. Palpatine did with doctored footage and twisted facts.

    BAIL ORGANA: "I was held up. What’s happening?"

    PADME: "The Chancellor has been elaborating on a plot by the Jedi, to overthrow the Senate. He's been presenting evidence all afternoon."

    And again, Anakin was needed to start the coup, since Mace was on his way to force Palpatine out before Anakin told him that he was Darth Sidious.

    Right, money paid from private accounts controlled by the Sith. They've had a thousand years to make a nice sum of cash to pay for this army.

    The Sith controlled, or eliminated them surreptitiously. They also covered up all evidence linking them to the Clone Army, to the Naboo invasion and other ventures. You don't manage to remain "dead" for a thousand years without learning a thing or two.

    They know who did it and they know the reasons. What they don't know is the real reason.

    Vulcans with emotions are known as Romulans. Remember, before Surak, the Vulcans were savages who waged war and were controlled by their emotions. Surak saved their race though Logic. Those who didn't fall in line left Vulcan and created the Romulan society which became the Romulan Empire and was one of the most dangerous political and military factions in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. They were responsible for the Earth-Romulan conflict which lead to the birth of the United Federation of Planets and later aided the Dominion during the Dominion War, before allying with the Federation after a betrayal.

    The Jedi believed that fear, anger and hate fuel the dark side and it is accurate. Those fears are tied to people which is a dangerous thing. Luke himself almost turned because of his attachment to his sister and his friends. Anakin turns because of his attachment to his mother and to his wife. Even the Sith know this, which is why they exploited those fears to their own ends.

    Uh, Palpatine didn't use his power. The dark side is growing strong because the Force is going out of balance.

    "If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is gray. In each of us we to have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this. In The Phantom Menace one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of the Force is starting to slip, and will slip further. It is obvious to this person that the Sith are going to destroy this balance. On the other hand a prediction which is referred to states someone will replace the balance in the future. At the right time a balance may again be created, but presently it is being eroded by dark forces."

    --George Lucas, Cut Magazine Interview, 1999.

    "As evil begins to take over, it pushes the Force out of balance."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

    "It's not that they can't see the dark side coming, it's just that the dark side begins to envelop everything. It's like walking into a fog. The Jedi's ability to see lessens as the dark side grows."

    --George Lucas, Starlog Magazine Interview.

    YODA: "The shroud of the dark side has fallen."

    Palpatine isn't using the Force to cloud their vision. He's not sitting there like John Cena doing his "You can't see me" spill.

    [​IMG]

    Their power is weakening because he's blurring the lines of good and evil, by turning the Jedi and the Republic who are good, into villains and making the Separatists who are evil, look like good guys.
     
  20. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001

    Not if you're watching I-VI and don't know spoilers. In that case, you'd expect Anakin to do something about Sidious.
     
  21. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t have drawn their lightsabers immediately after walking through the door if they thought they were just dealing with some petty corrupt Nixonian politician. Not to mention that the Emperor’s plan hinged on Anakin arriving at just the right moment to save his ass. The move was clever, but success wasn’t guaranteed.
    Considering that Jackson would’ve killed him had Anakin not intervened at the exact right moment, it’s debatable at the very least. Remember that his overconfidence is his weakness.
    As I said…they’re idiots! They know that the dark side has clouded their a ability to use the Force, yet they refuse to believe that a powerful Sith yields influence over the Senate because the Force, which they can no longer use, would’ve told them so.
    Canon is the last refuge of a coward. By relying on canon, you are conceding the point. Either cite the films or STFU. The films show that they find the whole notion of “Our guy secretly ordered the clone army 10 years ago” to be a bunch of BS.
    Separating a 3-year-old from his or her parents and prevent them from ever having any kind of relationship ever is incredibly creepy. Less “guardians of peace and justice” and more “weird creepy cult”. Ironically, another highly-anticipated film came out the same year as THE PHANTOM MENACE, and prominently featured a creepy cult that practiced emotional detachment and rejected anything resembling a human connection. It was called EYES WIDE SHUT. Makes you wonder how Jedi procreate.
    Yes, the essence of this is that being a human being will cause you to become evil.

    Not to mention that this inane “logic” contradicts the films. After all, what if Luke Skywalker had followed this dumb advice? What if he had had no emotional attachment to his father and just learned to “let go” and accept that “the good man who was your father was destroyed”? Things wouldn’t have turned out so well, huh? It’s almost as if emotional attachments are a good thing, and the Jedi are just full of crap. In fact, Obi-Wan and the Emperor seem to be in agreement on this one point, almost as if Lucas was making a point that Obi-Wan and the old Order were wrong.

    LUKE: I can’t kill my own father.
    OBI-WAN: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.

    EMPEROR: His compassion for you will be his undoing.

    OBI-WAN: He’s more machine now than man. Twisted and evil.

    EMPEROR: By now, you must know your father can never be turned from the dark side.

    Yet Luke’s attachment to his father, his refusal to let go, and his refusal to accept that his father is dead save the day.

    ANAKIN: You already have [saved me], Luke. You were right. You were right about me.

    I guess part of the reason I like Luke so much is because he rejects the blindness, arrogance, and short-sighted, dogmatic, narrow-mindedness of the Old Order and is proven to be absolutely right to reject their dogma. Looking at the story from that perspective actually makes the prequels alot better. The way I see it, Luke really is the pivotal character of the 6-film saga because HE represents the balance that the Force needed…a balance it wasn’t getting with the Old Order in charge and certainly wasn’t getting with the Sith in charge. In that sense, Anakin truly did bring balance to the Force- he fathered said balance and created circumstances under which Luke could re-invigorate the Jedi Order. Luke could be a wise, benevolent leader who would reject the stale dogma of the Old Order, whilst also rejecting the oppressive tendencies of the Sith.
    And you know that evidence doesn’t include the testimony of Anakin Skywalker how?
    This specific plan was what the Sith had spent 1,000 years orchestrating? How do we know that such cloning technology was even at this level 1,000 years ago, or that the Sith would’be been able to predict such advances? It’d be like a family here on Earth making 1,000-year long plan to take over the world that was entirely predicated on the invention of the Internet. You’d have to be remarkably good at predicting things to see that coming.
    Well, they miserably failed at covering up their involvement in the invasion of Naboo, since Liam Neeson figured that one out as soon as he saw Darth Maul…and the Jedi clearly believe he’s right in his suspicion.
    Clearly, they don’t know who ordered the army of WHY it was ordered. If they knew about the Emperor’s plot all along, then the entire Order should’be immediately been ruled mentally incompetent.
    “Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end.”

    “I always had a different vision than my father, the ability to see beyond pure logic. He considered it weak. But I have discovered it to be a source of extraordinary strength. Sarek would have seen this mission of reunification as a fool's errand. Somehow I think it is not. Logic cannot explain why, I only know that I must pursue this.”

    These statements are the culmination of Spock’s character development. In a way, Spock does for the Vulcans what Luke does for the Jedi. After years of struggling with the emotional side of his personality, constantly trying to suppress it, he eventually finds a balance between logic and emotion, determining that to be true wisdom. His death and resurrection, as well as his close bond with Kirk and McCoy, undoubtedly play a huge role in shaping that outcome. Unless, of course, you think Spock is evil. He also clearly has emotional attachments, especially to Kirk, eventually embracing Kirk’s form of “cowboy diplomacy”.
    And I clearly demonstrated why this is wrong, especially with Luke. But let’s look at Anakin for a minute. You say that his attachment to Natalie Portman caused his turn. Let’s go with that for a minute. What brought him back? Did he eventually return to the light by learning to let go of his attachments and accepting the death of his loved ones? Absolutely not! The great irony is that his emotional attachment and refusal to let the ones he loves die brought him back to the good side! His attachment to his son. His refusal to let his son die. Again, so much for the stupid Jedi idea that having an emotional connection with another person inevitably leads to evil.
    How strange is it then that this Force cloudiness seems to be lifted by the time of the original trilogy, i.e. when the dark side is at the height of its supremacy and should be completely enveloping the galaxy. But it doesn’t, say, prevent Obi-Wan from having “felt a great disturbance in the Force. As if millions of voices cried out in terror…and were suddenly silenced.” Nor does it even prevent Yoda from sensing Anakin’s anguish after the death of his mother, even though Anakin is in a different country (since Tatooine apparently isn’t part of the Republic). Nor does it prevent Yoda from watching over Luke for 20 years while hiding out on Dagobah (“This one, a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away…to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was! Hmph! What he was doin’! Hmph! Adventure…peh! Excitement…peh! A Jedi craves not these things. You are reckless!”). Yoda certainly seems to have done a good job watching him from afar for 20 years, even though the dark side has completely covered the galaxy. It’s almost as if the Emperor was just using some kind of Sith power to prevent the Jedi from sensing what he was doing…and as if the Emperor stopped using that Sith power once he decided that the Jedi were no longer a threat.
     
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  22. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Mace, Yoda and Ki-Adi-Mundi had just discussed forcing Palpatine to give up his control, before finding out who he really was. So they were going to get him to give it up, either peacefully or by arresting him. Palpatine needed Anakin there not to save his ass, but because it was his way of turning the boy to the dark side since he didn't aboard the Invisible Hand after killing Dooku and didn't after he revealed himself to him. He didn't need Anakin to save him, but he used Mace to force Anakin to choose. He knows that there is no absolute guarantee that Anakin won't return, either in time or at all, much less that he would save himself. Palpatine would have anticipated that.

    In ROTJ. After he had crushed his enemies and had driven them before him, while listening to the lamentation of the women. Also, Mace was going to kill Palpatine because Anakin was there.

    "Mace was going to do the right thing by arresting him, but after Palpatine does the lightning, he changes his mind."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 204.

    They refuse to believe it because the Sith have a history of lying, over telling the truth. For once, a Sith Lord has told them the truth and it is a whopper of a lie as far as they're concerned. The Sith have a history of creating mistrust. So this is why they refuse to believe until Palpatine has begun to show that he is abusing the system and refusing to yield control.

    The Jedi teach the children how to love without becoming attached. How to have friendships without becoming attached. And how to let go of their emotional connections when the time comes. This is what Anakin could not do. He could not accept that he was not powerful enough to save Shmi. He could not accept that death comes to all people and that was because he was raised by his mother, before he began his training. And so he lusts for power, the power to cheat death. Because he's afraid of death. The Jedi have connections. Obi-wan was friends with Dexter and Yoda expressed his care for the Wookiees. Ahsoka was friends with Rex. Kanan formed a friendship with Hera. Anakin and Obi-wan were friends. So Jedi can make connections, but they're trained to understand the difference between compassion and passion. Unconditional love and obsessive love.

    As to procreation, the Jedi are not celibate, but they can indulge in intercourse without getting married and without emotional attachments. That's why Obi-wan was aware of Anakin's relationship with Padme, but not that they were married and not that she had gotten pregnant. Not until it was too late. That's why he went to see Padme before leaving for Utapau. He knew they were intimate with each other, and why he asked her to try to reach Anakin since he would not open up to him.

    You're missing the point. Luke saves his father not because of his emotional attachment, but because he shows compassion for him. It is his emotional attachment to Leia that nearly destroys him, since he doesn't want her involved and when Vader finds out that she exists, Luke loses control and nearly kills his own father, after repeatedly saying that he couldn't do it. And that is because of his attachment to Leia. Luke has to let go of his attachment to Leia and to his father, in order to save himself. Just as Anakin had to let go of Padme, if he was to kill Palpatine. Remember, that's the only reason he doesn't kill him is because of his emotional attachment to Padme.

    PALPATINE: "You do know, don’t you, if the Jedi destroy me, any chance of saving her will be lost."

    "It's about a good boy who was loving and had exceptional powers, but how that eventually corrupted him and how he confused possessive love with compassionate love. That happens in Episode II: Regardless of how his mother died, Jedis are not supposed to take vengeance. And that's why they say he was too old to be a Jedi, because he made his emotional connections. His undoing is that he loveth too much."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stone Magazine Interview; June 2005.

    "You almost come a second too late. You're rushing over to make sure that nothing happens-but your anticipation is that they're going to hurt each other. When the lightning starts things are going from bad to worse from your point of view. And when Mace is going to kill him, you have to act.

    Try and increase how uncomfortable you feel as the shot goes on. Try to think back on the Darth Plagueis story-run that through your head. Take it one step further: you realize that by telling the Jedi about Palpatine being a Sith that Padme is going to die. Basically, you just killed her."

    --George Lucas To Hayden Christensen, The Making Of ROTS.

    "Okay, well this sequence always started out with Mace uh overpowering Palpatine and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace and Mace deflecting his rays with his Lightsaber. It always was that Anakin cut the Lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later cause this is it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here and you can see that he’s now that its very clear that he’s, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

    --George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

    Letting go of your attachment means letting go of all that you fear to lose. Anakin had everything that he could want and was afraid to go on without the one thing that he wanted, which was Padme. He couldn't bring himself to kill Palpatine, because it mean sacrificing Padme.

    Because he doesn't need his testimony. Especially since Anakin Skywalker will be counted among the victims of Order 66.

    PALPATINE: "Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design."

    That's why the Sith waited. They waited until the time was right. Until the Jedi were so arrogant and presumptuous in their abilities, until the Republic was in a sorry state of affairs, until they had everything that they needed to launch this plan. Patience is a virtue and the Sith had a lot of patience.

    Ah, not right away.

    QUI-GON: "...my only conclusion can be that it was a Sith Lord."

    MACE: "A Sith Lord?!?"

    KI-ADI-MUNDI: "Impossible! The Sith have been extinct for a millennium."

    MACE: "I do not believe they could have returned without us knowing."

    YODA: "Hard to see, the dark side is."

    It is only after Obi-wan and Qui-gon have fought Maul, do they believe that the Sith are back. But while the Jedi know now that they are back, finding the other Sith Lord is not that easy. The Jedi know that they were involved, but they do not know where he is, what his Sith name is or if he has an alias. And after what the Sith did for the Federation, they were able to avoid any problems.

    They thought it was Sifo-Dyas for two years until his Lightsaber was found, which caused them to re-open the investigation and they soon discovered that another Jedi had gone with him and Valorum's aide to Felucia, where Dooku, the Jedi in question killed Sifo-Dyas. Then he assumed his identity and ordered the Clone Army. So they knew that the Sith had created them and used Sifo-Dyas as a cover, but they don't know what the Sith are planning with them.

    YODA: "Know now we do that guide the creation of the clones from the beginning, Dooku did. Hmm, our enemy created an army for us."

    MACE: "If this was known, public confidence in the war effort, the Jedi, and the Republic would vanish. There would be mass chaos."

    YODA: "Cover up this discovery we must. No one, not even the Chancellor, may know. Valiant men the clones have proven to be. Saved my life and yours they have many times. Believe in them we must. Win the war swiftly we must, before our enemy's designs reach completion, whatever they may be."

    MACE: "Are you sure we are taking the right path?"

    YODA: "Hmm, the right path, no. The only path, yes. Designed by the Dark Lord of the Sith, this web is. For now, play his game we must."

    So they knew and the only thing that they could do was to try and stop it the only way they knew how.

    Spock doesn't abandon logic either and slipped back into his logical side again, when he went to Romulus. There is nothing wrong with emotions, which Spock himself point out. But negative emotions are never good. Would you sell your soul to the devil to save one life? That is what Anakin did and he did it because of his emotional attachment to Padme.

    "It really has to do with learning," Lucas says, "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love- primarily the Emperor- and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die. Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221.

    See, it is okay for a Jedi to save a life of someone, but they have to be willing to let go of their fears, in order to do so properly. Their motivation has to be pure. Anakin's motivation was not pure when he betrayed the Jedi, because he was acting out of fear and motivated by greed. When he saves Luke, he is no longer afraid of death. He is no longer afraid to lose people. He is no longer motivated by greed, but by compassion. He is no longer thinking of himself, but he is thinking of Luke. Remember, when Anakin turns, it is all about himself. "I cannot live without her", "I need him". He is a selfish and pathetic person in that moment. He damns everyone because of his fear and his greed. He is saved because he thinks of Luke over himself.

    "Luke is therefore urging Stoic wisdom upon Vader when he tells him to let go of his hate. Unfortunately, hatred has had such a vise like hold on Vader for so long that he tells Luke: "It is too late for me son. The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master now." For servants of the Dark Side, the true nature of the Force is servitude to evil, enslavement to hate. Like virtues, vices tend to control one's behavior. Vader has used fear and hatred to achieve his ends for so long that now the superior hatred and aggression of the Emperor use him. That is how Vader's mastery of the Dark Side is at the same time servitude to it."

    --Star Wars and Philosophy, page 27.

    Further proof that a logical decision is required, as well as what Luke himself was going to do against Vader.

    "It will be about how young Anakin Skywalker became evil and then was redeemed by his son. But it's also about the transformation of how his son came to find the call and then ultimately realize what it was. Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it’s only in the last act—when he throws his sword down and says, “I’m not going to fight this”—that he makes a more conscious, rational decision. And he does it at the risk of his life because the Emperor is going to kill him. It’s only that way that he is able to redeem his father. It’s not as apparent in the earlier movies, but when you see the next trilogy, then you see the issue is, How do we get Darth Vader back? How do we get him back to that little boy that he was in the first movie, that good person who loved and was generous and kind? Who had a good heart."

    --George Lucas, Star Wars Trilogy VHS Boxset 2000

    "In the end I had a problem in the fight between Luke and his father of why he makes the final turn--Luke makes the final turn to the bad side of the force and tries to kill his father. Richard [Marquand] was trying to block out the fight between Luke and Vader and we got down to that point underneath the throne room there and he said, 'You know the script sort of says that Vader says something that upsets Luke,' or something vague like that. I can't remember exactly what the script said but it was a very vague...spark. And we didn't have that actual moment that we needed where you got the sense that Luke is hiding. He's not going to fight him. He refuses to fight. He'd rather die first and then something turns him around and makes him fight. And I never really came up with a satisfactory answer to that of what he could possibly say to set Luke off. And in the process of evolving the script and evolving the importance of Leia as the sister, it was sitting right there in front of my face and it became obvious that turning her to the dark side would be the thing that would set Luke off again."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ Annotated Screenplay; 1999


    The Jedi's abilities are still weakened in the OT. That doesn't mean that Obi-wan couldn't feel Alderaan be destroyed, since we know that Yoda could feel the deaths of many Jedi during Order 66. Despite their weakness, they can still feel a massive disturbance in the Force. Yoda felt Anakin's anguish, but he does not know why he is in anguish and he does not know that Anakin killed dozens of Tusken Raiders in cold blood. Yoda can watch Luke, but he cannot see Han and Leia's fate. He cannot see if Luke will die, or turn when he goes to Cloud City. And your biggest clue is what we've heard in the trailer for "The Force Awakens."

    "There has been an awakening. Have you felt it? Both the dark side and the light."

    Anakin's actions have restored balance to the Force. And balance of the Force is about good and evil.

    "I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil—everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in Star Wars."

    --George Lucas, Time Magazine Article 2002.
     
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  23. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    In other words, he was willing to bet it all on Anakin’s actions, and, had Anakin not arrived when he did, he would’ve died then and there.
    He has control of the Senate and the courts! He’s too dangerous to be left alive!

    Now, maybe I’m just being stupid, but I kinda think cold-blooded murder would turn someone to the dark side alot quicker than forming emotional bonds with other people would.
    Jesus Christ, the Jedi really are the cultists from EYES WIDE SHUT. Just like the EYES WIDE SHUT creeps, they apparently believe only in depersonalized sex. I can just imagine all of them gathered up in the Jedi Temple wearing those masks, not being able to kiss, see each other’s faces, and, for the most part, not speaking (in order to prevent emotional attachments that’ll lead to evil, of course). You reduce what’s normally the most intimate of human interactions to a creepy, ritualistic form of gratification. In the end, I guess the Jedi favor isolation and a complete dearth of emotion.
    If Lucas actually buys into all this crap about emotional connections leading to evil, then all it does is prove that he really did lose sight of what made STAR WARS so great. I’m sorry, but I just can’t help but harp on the irony of the fact that the very same year THE PHANTOM MENACE came out, a director widely criticized for being cold, sterile, inhuman, and lacking all emotion (Stanley Kubrick) made a film about why the lack of warmth, humanity and emotional connection is a BAD thing…the exact opposite of what these idiot Jedi propound. Apparently, going by your logic, Kubrick is more of a humanist than Lucas is.

    And yes, Luke clearly does save his father because of an emotional connection.

    LUKE: I can’t do it, Ben. I can’t kill my own father.

    ANAKIN: Now, go, my son. Leave me.
    LUKE: No. You’re coming with me. I won’t leave you here. I’ve got to save you.

    In fact, Luke even cried when his father died, saying, “Father! I won’t leave you!” Clearly, he rejected Yoda’s brilliant advice of not mourning or missing people and learning how not to care when people you love die. Anakin also rejected that advice. If he’d listened to Yoda, his reaction to seeing Luke fry would’ve been, “Yeah, my son’s being tortured to death. Eh, whatever.

    If anything, the character who most thoroughly embodies the philosophy of “form no emotional attachments and make sure not to care one bit when people around you die” is actually the Emperor. Think about it. He clearly has no emotional attachments to anyone and certainly seems to be quite blasé about the deaths of Darth Maul and Christopher Lee. I’d say he let go pretty quickly. You see, people who are incapable of forming emotional connections and who don’t care when others suffer and die are called “psychopaths”.

    I’d actually argue that there’s a deep undercurrent of irony underlying the prequels. While I may be hyperbolic in some of my claims regarding the Jedi, one thing I actually LIKE about the prequels is that they take our preconceptions of the Jedi Order from the original trilogy and play around with them. I don’t think the Jedi are overtly evil, but it’s clear that they’re blind, arrogant, narrow-minded, and overly dogmatic. I’d even go so far as to argue that, while they’re not directly responsible for Vader, you can’t ignore their role in his creation. These supposedly wise men constantly exercise poor judgment, and the Emperor clearly recognizes this and exploits it. I do sincerely believe that RETURN OF THE JEDI shows just how much their dogma blinded them, and how a rejection of said dogma, by Luke and Anakin, was necessary for their return. This isn’t bad storytelling. It’s actually really quite fascinating. It’s especially amusing how some people, in their zeal to defend the prequels, ignore one of the films’ best aspects and instead opt for a wrong-minded, superficial defense of the exact things the films are actually criticizing, failing to look beneath the surface. Instead of being this noble group of heroes of unimpeachable moral calibre who were tragically ambushed and slain, they were (partly) done in by a clever manipulator recognizing their greatest flaws and exploiting them. The prophecy turned out to be a Monkey’s Paw, at best. It’s the sort of thing you don’t really get from just viewing the original trilogy, because the main Jedi we follow in that one (Luke) embraces the Jedi’s best qualities while rejecting the flaws that allowed the Emperor to destroy them.
    You do realize that he made Anakin his right-hand man, right? And that Anakin is one of the most famous people in the galaxy at this point? I think it’d be hard for him to hide the fact that one of the most recognizable people in the entire galaxy is now serving alongside him. Had Anakin not gotten all burned up, he probably would’ve said something to the effect of, “Without Skywalker’s warning and timely intervention, I surely would’ve been killed. He has proven that he is still loyal to the Republic.” In fact, he even says, “Because the Council did not trust you, my young apprentice, I believe you are the only Jedi with no knowledge of this plot.” Again, how do you know that the evidence he spent all afternoon presenting to the Senate didn’t include the sworn deposition of Anakin Skywalker? “We even have the testimony of renowned war hero, Anakin Skywalker, who intervened in the attempted assassination and saved my life.
    I really hope I don’t have to point out that he says that about an hour or two before Vader turns on him and returns to the light.
    Oh, I’m not doubting that they waited until the time was right to strike (“the opportune moment” as Captain Jack Sparrow would call it). Not to mention that they doubtlessly know the Klingon proverb that tells us revenge is a dish that is best served cold (and yes, I would’ve loved it had the Emperor actually quoted that to Yoda). But the idea that they set up some financial reserve for 1,000 years specifically for this whole clone plan? That’s a bit far-fetched.
    Yet by the time Neeson goes back, they all seem to agree that Maul is a Sith. As I recall, the very reason they ask him to go back is so that he can figure out just what the Sith are doing.
    I don’t remember ever seeing this scene. Is this from Special Edition 4.0 or something?
    Actually, when he says, “Sarek would have seen this mission of reunification as a fool's errand. Somehow I think it is not. Logic cannot explain why, I only know that I must pursue this,” he’s specifically referring to his mission on Romulus. He goes there not because it’s logical, but because it’s the right thing to do. And contrary to what some weirdos may think, there’s a big difference between “I don’t want my wife to die, and I’ll try to find some way to save her” and murdering children. (Which never made that much sense to me, by the way. How is murdering kids gonna help him prevent Natalie Portman from dying? I’m kinda surprised he didn’t say, “Tell he how to save her right now, or I WILL kill you!” to the Emperor.)
    Think about Anakin’s mindset at the time of JEDI. The Emperor has truly ruined his life. The Emperor took away everyone he loved, alienated him from his close friends, like Obi-Wan Kenobi, led Anakin down the path that resulted in his wife’s death, and enslaved him. So now it was Palpy the General, saying what we should do and what not do, and Vader as his mindless, grinning bulldog. Vader has lost everything thanks to the Emperor. Luke is the only thing he has left. Luke believes in him, when no one else does. Obi-Wan doesn’t believe in him, nor do Yoda and the Emperor. Even Vader believes he’s a lost cause. But Luke won’t give up. Luke is the only one who still cares about him, despite everything he’s done. And now the Emperor is about to take Luke away from him as well. Anakin cannot let that happen. “You have destroyed my life and taken everyone else away from me! You will NOT take my son! I would rather die than let you kill the one person in the world who still cares about me!” Look at his last words:

    “You already have, Luke. You were right. You were right about me. Tell my sister you were right.”

    You’re seriously deluded if you believe he has no emotional connection with his son.
    I’m familiar with EMPIRE, thank you. “Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.” Here’s another way of saying the exact same thing: “The future’s not set. There’s no fate but what we make for ourselves.” Or how about: “Your future hasn’t been written yet. No one’s has. Your future is whatever you make it. So make it a good one.” That’s a helluva lot different than “The dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see, the future is.” In EMPIRE, the future is difficult to see because it’s always in motion- i.e. nothing is set in stone. Your choices determine the future, not some prophecy or vision. In CLONES, Yoda can’t see the future because the Emperor is using some sort of Sith power to cloud the Jedi’s vision.
    I don’t like commenting on movies I haven’t seen yet…and given that Disney is trying to distance itself from the prequels, I really doubt that the prophecy will play much of a role in the film.
     
  24. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Calling other posters "seriously deluded" and telling them to "STFU" stops now.

    And let's get back to the prophecy of the Chosen One and away from debating the morality of the PT Jedi.
     
  25. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    No, it means that if Anakin hadn't come there, Palpatine would have continued the fight. He was not without resources. He had two Lightsabers. He would have used it.

    Killing alone isn't enough as we saw with the Tusken Raiders and Dooku. There needs to be a reason that someone trained to be a Jedi must abandon the principles that he or she swore to uphold. That is why Dooku showed Anakin that Ahsoka was in danger on Tatooine. Why Palpatine had arranged two separate kidnapping attempts at Dooku's hands. Why Dooku was told to eliminate Obi-wan during the second kidnapping during the Battle of Naboo, so that Anakin would finally break down and use his anger and hate. It is why Obi-wan loses control of his emotions against Maul on Naboo, after Qui-gon was run through and again, when Maul provoked him on Raydonia. Why Ezra Bridger lost control against the Grand Inquisitor at Fort Anaxes. Why Anakin submits to Palpatine and why Luke goes to Cloud City and later loses control twice aboard the Death Star. It is emotional bonds to those that they care for, that drives them.

    Not at all. You've watched the films. You've seen how the Jedi interact with not only each other, but other people. They can love, but they must love without fear and jealousy getting in the way. They must have no sense of self. No obsessive and possessive qualities. People are quite capable of doing this in the real world. Look at couples who have been together for years. No jealousy. No fear. No paranoia. That is love. True love.

    Emotional connections based on fear, anger, hate, jealously, greed, possessiveness, obsessiveness. Those are the negative traits of love. All Anakin cared about was himself, not Padme. He didn't care that Padme wasn't worried about her own pending death. He didn't care that she didn't want him to pursue these new powers in order to protect her. He didn't care that she didn't want him to go around killing people to protect her.

    What Luke does is show compassion for his father, which is unconditional love. Something all Jedi are taught. That is how they function. That is, as Lucas says, is right. For instance, Han is willing to step aside in ROTJ, because he thinks that Leia is in love with Luke. He will not fight to keep her. He will not let jealousy and anger get in the way. He is letting go of all that he is afraid to lose, because he chooses to think of Leia's needs and desires over his. That would make him a Jedi, if he were capable of being one. Han's reward is finding out that Leia is not in love with Luke, but that they are siblings and that she loves Han as much as he loves her.

    When Luke spares Anakin, he is letting go of his fears. His fear that he will become his father. His fear that he will lose his friends and his sister to the Empire. He is trusting that they can make it out on the other side and if they don't, then that is their choice. Their sacrifice to make. When Luke let's go of his anger, it is the anger towards Vader that he has felt since being told that Vader had betrayed and murdered his father. He is letting go of his hate towards his father for betrayal. And he is letting go of his own ego, for wanting to be the one who slayed Darth Vader, the scourge of the Jedi and the galaxy. That is the Jedi way. Anakin saves Luke because he is letting go of his own fears. His own anger. His own hatred. You clearly did not read what Lucas said. Or if you did, you completely misinterpreted it. Possibly the latter.

    Right and Picard pointed out that his choice to see beyond pure logic could lead into a Romulan trap, which it did. Also, take note of what Data and Spock discussed.

    Spock: "He intrigues me, this Picard."

    Data: "In what manner, sir?"

    Spock: "Remarkably analytical and dispassionate. For a human. I understand why my father chose to mind-meld with him. There's an almost Vulcan quality to the man."

    Data: "Interesting. I had not considered that. And he has been a role model in my quest to be more human."

    Spock: "More human?"

    Data: "Yes, Ambassador."

    Spock: "Fascinating. You have an efficient intellect, superior physical skills, no emotional impediments. Some Vulcans aspire all their lives to achieve what you have by design."

    Data: "You are half-human?"

    Spock: "Yes."

    Data: "Yet have chosen a Vulcan way of life."

    Spock: "I have."

    Data: "In effect, you have abandoned what I have sought all my life."

    At which point, Spock pauses to consider the weight of what Data has just said. Despite going by his own feelings, he is still acting on logic. He is still acting as a Vulcan would and not the balance that he sought between his dual heritage.

    As to Anakin, he has to kill to free himself of the Jedi teachings about morality. He must turn his fear into anger and hate, and embrace them. No mercy. No compassion. For these are Jedi feelings and are useless to a Sith Lord. After killing the Jedi, he admits that he feels stronger than before.

    Anakin is shown compassion by his son and he in turn shows compassion for his son. That is not the same as attachment. Attachment is defined as jealously, possessiveness, obsessiveness, greed, fear and anger. They both show compassion, which is unconditional love.

    Nope, he isn't doing anything directly. The dark side has grown stronger than the light.

    [​IMG]

    This the Force in balance.

    [​IMG]

    This is the Force out of balance.

    [​IMG]

    At the end of ROTJ, the Force is in balance again with the destruction of the Sith. When the Force is in balance, the Jedi's powers will be back to normal.