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Saga The Prophecy of a Chosen One ... do you like it ? ( with a Poll )

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Saga Explorer, Aug 28, 2015.

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Do you like the concept of the Chosen One and the Prophecy ?

  1. Yes , I find it great .

    59 vote(s)
    34.5%
  2. Yes , I just like it .

    28 vote(s)
    16.4%
  3. I could do without it , but it's here so I accept it .

    37 vote(s)
    21.6%
  4. I'm indifferent , but it would be better without it .

    6 vote(s)
    3.5%
  5. No , I don't like it .

    26 vote(s)
    15.2%
  6. I am wholeheartedly against it .

    15 vote(s)
    8.8%
  1. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Nonsense. Because of the fulfillment of the prophecy a significantly worse outcome was averted. And of course the prophecy in no way said that everything would be wonderful either way. If the prophecy had not ended up being fulfilled, you might have an argument. Perhaps some fan fiction writing is in order.

    The clones didn't witness any of that, and I don't recall Anakin testifying to the Senate. Ultimately Palpatine can issue Order 66 anytime he wants to.

    It takes a Chosen One to deliver a message to Mace Windu?

    Didn't see it, didn't happen, right? Again you act as if the result leads directly to Palpatine, and the Jedi would obviously have found something incriminating if only they had tried. This, unfortunately, necessitates throwing out something we are given to understand about Palpatine as a character.

    We have evidence that shows they don't always get the outcome they want just by virtue of the fact that they want it. And there may be several reasons for this.

    Or you don't find anything worthy of note, because your opponent is not as careless as you might want him to be, and then you're right back at square one. Suspicions prove to be unfounded literally all the time.

    Didn't see it, didn't happen. No one went to the bathroom; between the events depicted on screen in the films, the characters simply stopped existing.

    Wrong. Now you're just making things up. Can you cite a canonical example of this happening even once?

    Nope. Still making things up. When did this happen? Can you provide a list of the characters who say "emotion is evil"? Or is the problem that you are unable to differentiate between positive and negative emotions?

    No. You just assume he does, but your assumptions hardly constitute proof of anything or actual film content.

    Because canon doesn't back up your revisionism, canon is the enemy! [face_laugh]

    By the same token, nothing in ROTS contradicts them believing in The Clone Wars that Sifo-Dyas ordered the army. "Nothing" is funny like that. It goes both ways, it doesn't support one alternative over the other.

    The cartoon is at the same level of canon as the films, nothing is "superseded". That's decided by the franchise holders. It's certainly not decided by you. AOTC does not tell us what the Jedi believe. They are clearly skeptical but they do not come to a definitive conclusion regarding Sifo-Dyas' involvement. The fact of the matter is that they do not have enough information by that point to reach a conclusion, because they have not yet investigated the matter. By the time of TCW/ROTS their appraisal of the situation may be different as it may reflect additional investigation on their part. And that is only what we would expect.

    Because that's how investigations work. You suspect something, you investigate it, and you gather evidence. And when the evidence says that Sifo-Dyas ordered the clones, you go with the evidence, right?
     
    Thomo93 likes this.
  2. Thomo93

    Thomo93 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 27, 2015
    I love the idea of the chosen one & always have. It was written somehow or another that a being was to be born by a virgin mother with no biological father & that they would one day bring balance to the force. That person ended up being Anakin Skywalker (It almost sounds as though he was Jesus in the Star Wars galaxy). He possessed the highest ever midichlorian count ever known to be held by a force user thus making his connection to the force immensely powerful. If he didn't suffer his injuries on mustafar that put him in a suit for the remainder of his life, he probably would have been most powerful force wielder to have ever lived, IF he reached his full potential that is.
    But also, even though he was still a young man in ROTS at 23 years of age, it probably might have taken him maybe another 5,10,15,20 years maybe to reach his full potential? Everyone learns at different pases afterall.

    Also, George Lucas mentioned that his original intention had been to make Luke Skywalker the chosen one of the force. But once Lucas made the decision he would go back & make the Prequels he then decided to make Luke's father, Anakin chosen one & the center of attention instead.

    If anyone disbelieves that Anakin was indeed the chosen one. Go watch Season 3 of the Clone Wars episodes 15-17. :)
     
  3. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    Here is my final word regarding the issue of canon:

     
    MeBeJedi likes this.
  4. Pancellor Chalpatine

    Pancellor Chalpatine Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2015
    It justifies Sidious's death,he seams to strong to die unless it's destined.
     
  5. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    No canon wars or attacks on other users.

    He was human, humans die.
     
  6. Pancellor Chalpatine

    Pancellor Chalpatine Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2015
    Yes, but he's kinda the strongest human in the entire galaxy with God like powers, a galactic army at his side, and made a lap dog out of Vader. So if he's gonna die I think it should have been something he shouldn't have been able to get out of easily (a darn throw)....like Vader force pulls hiss Saber and SURPRISE slashes him in half! Much better then slowly throwing a character who can levitate himself up or simply bounce off the wall back up there.
     
  7. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    You've already got a thread for that. This one needs to stay on the Chosen One prophecy.

    Your opinion that Anakin needed to be the Chosen One in order to kill Sidious is noted, but let's not take this thread off course.
     
  8. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Interesting discussion generally.

    Just wanted to say, the chosen one prophecy would make things interesting for a viewer who first views the films 1-6.
    If you weren't paying close attention you would expect Anakin to end the Sith in ROTS, then you get a surprise when Lucas subverts expectations and he becomes the main bad guy.
     
  9. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Can Palpatine really levitate himself, though? I know there were things like "Force levitation" - of oneself - in the old EU, but it feels inconsistent with the films. There were several instances where a film character could have profited from such an ability.
     
  10. darkspine10

    darkspine10 PT Trivia Champ star 8 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    There is Yoda's hover chair, that could be possibly levitated via the force.

    On the over hand, it could just be a hovering chair.
     
  11. Pancellor Chalpatine

    Pancellor Chalpatine Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2015
    I won't go off thread, but I feel it's on point. I mean the prophecy is based around killing Sidious. Simply put.
    And I feel the prophecy justifies his death a bit. It also gives him more importance then simply being someone who turned twice, he was a living legend.

    Also we seen levitating in clone wars. The chair thing can go either way. I think what people complain about the prophecy was the fact his birth was very close to the way jesus was, with there being no father. And some people got offended, or just didn't like it. I don't mind though.
     
  12. darkspine10

    darkspine10 PT Trivia Champ star 8 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    When do we see levitation in TCW?

    Other than the Ones on Mortis, but they can do a lot of abnormal stuff. Plus they have wings.
     
  13. Pancellor Chalpatine

    Pancellor Chalpatine Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2015
    Well in the first clone wars we see Dooku levitate down to applaud Ventress, also in the OT didn't Vader do some levitating? I remember him doing that. I mean if you can lift ships, I don't see why they can lift themselves.
     
  14. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Yes, Vader seems to do it during his duel with Luke on Bespin. Kind of floats down the stairs.
     
  15. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    He leaps down the stairs. Not the same as levitating.
     
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  16. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    If you watch it he floats more than a leap though. You don't move forward that far at the same height from a regular jump.
     
  17. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    We're talking about Sith Lords using the Force to leap. Didn't you watch the films?
     
  18. zldeltah

    zldeltah Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2015
    The Chosen One prophecy is fantastic, and it allows for a much more in depth view of the nature of good against evil in the Star Wars universe. The only Jedi that believed Anakin to be the chosen one were those that weren't entirely "good" Jedi. For example, Qui-Gon, who was very in touch with the force, was infamous for his recklessness and irrationality with the council. He believed in the prophecy. I believe that Sidious believed in the prophecy as well, and that's one of the things that motivates him to keep Anakin under his leash. My point is that only the Jedi that were capable of seeing both sides of a story were able to believe in the prophecy. Which, is very symbolic, considering that Anakin is a powerful figure for both the light and dark before he finally bring balance to the force.

    And yes. The Chosen One is Anakin. There is no way of denying that. Watch The Mortis Story arc for confirmation if the ending of Episode 6 isn't enough proof for you.

    Overall, The Chosen One prophecy adds a great amount of depth to the universe, as well as the Skywalker family.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    minnishe likes this.
  19. Straudenbecker

    Straudenbecker Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 22, 2015
    I like it. I give GL credit for taking risks in which he did with having that in the story. I don't think he would have gotten away with that back when he was making the OT.
     
  20. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012

    Another way of putting this would be; If TPM had been the first movie made in the Star Wars universe it would have been the only one - and we wouldn't have the boards here. There might likely be a very small board discussing that obscure movie made back in the late Seventies but...that meandering, overblown nonsense would have grabbed very few people.

    "There was no father" - I mean all we need here us some choral music in the background and the scene is set. I think there would a lot of puzzled looks at that point, a kind of."wtf..space jesus?!!" moment. People warbling on about this thing called the force which appears to be carried by some kind of bacterial infection... don't think it would have been a great success.

    But, what really undermines the 'prophecy' concept is that...Lucas doesn't even know what the story is. He actually changed the story, right at the last minute in ROTS. It is obvious when you watch without the film of 'hero Lucas' covering your eyes; there's a major disjoint between the build up to Anakin's fall and then how it is actually accomplished. Right up until the last minute Anakin was going to be 'brought back into the fold' by his 'father' (Sidious) but...it didn't work, so Lucas instead turned to a 'Faustian pact' - reverting to an earlier concept that Anakin is born of the force....and so all the build up to the original turn is now obliterated. He cannot be buying in to Palpatine's world view because if he does there is no pay-off of the Faustian pact. If he believes what he is doing is the right thing to do then he offers nothing in return for his pact - he cannot know he does evil if he believes what he is doing is right.

    There is no narrative for the prophecy, but that is a major problem with the PT more generally; there are no logical narratives. It's a supposedly 'complex' story made up on the fly, and it shows. Where I am told there is this 'complxity' I see only muddle, a mess of ideas that are thrown together ad-hoc, utilising 'characters' as, instead, cyphers for those ideas.
     
  21. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    It's supposed to be both. He sees Palpatine's methods as a necessary evil. He doesn't believe Palpatine is a good man anymore, but it is ultimately in Anakin's nature that he can't pass up the opportunity for greater power than he can achieve through the flawed and inferior Jedi.

    What you mentioned about "reverting to an earlier concept that Anakin is born of the force", this isn't necessarily the case. It's left up to the viewer, it was just removed because if flat out stated it made Anakin look too destined to fall. In the final cut he is clearly making a decision that Padme is worth more than the entire Jedi Order by knowingly turning on Mace. Because the Jedi on one level seem conveniently morally equivalent to the Sith here he can consciously sell his soul in siding with the devil, which is the simplest and easiest way out, yet still think total order under a Sith regime is the best option for the ultimate good of the galaxy. It's hinted in parts of AOTC, ROTS, and the OT generally. And even if he disagrees with anything Palpatine does, he is planning to overthrow him eventually anyway, and rule the galaxy as he sees fit.
     
  22. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012


    "It's left up to the viewer" is a cop-out. The scenes were re-written. It was going to be explicitly revealed that Anakin was created by the Sith but...as it was envisaged it didn't work.

    A 'Faustian pact' does not work on the principle that you sell your soul to the devil and get what you desire, sort of. That's not a Faustian pact at all. You sell your soul to the devil to achieve one thing; It cannot be both that he does believe in Palpatine's world-view and at the same time that carrying out what Palpatine wants is the price he pays to achieve the outcome he wants (the pact). This really is so simple.
     
  23. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Maybe, but it seems to me it was simply decided how Anakin was created ultimately wasn't crucially important to why he fell.


    Why can't he knowingly sell his soul yet still find the devil is more attractive because he speaks to him from a point of view Anakin could subscribe to before this?

    Imo it is more complex than you state. He progressively developed his ideals over the PT, eventually believing in order at any cost.
    In TPM he clearly believes in a greater good - "Mom, you say the biggest problem in the universe is nobody helps each other." , "I had a dream I was a Jedi. I came back here and freed all the slaves."

    By AOTC he seems more opinionated; arrogantly suggesting to Obi-Wan their power could be used more effectively than by just protecting Padme, hinting to Padme that he is fed up with the inefficiency of politicians and the Republic (even letting slip for a moment that a dictatorship may be more desirable), and lamenting over the fact that he was not powerful enough to save his mother.

    In ROTS he is more mature, yet still desperately wants the power to "fix" anything. Anakin stubbornly wants to achieve everything by himself (which plays into being the Emperor's right hand man in the OT) - "I'm going to go help them out." , "Do you think Obi-Wan can help us?" "We don't need his help. Our baby is a blessing." In a deleted scene he agrees with Palpatine regarding a quick end to the war at the cost of certain constitutional amendments giving Palpatine more central power.
    He eventually finds the Jedi weaker, inefficient, and more flawed than the Sith. On turning he isn't just paying a price to Palpatine, he obviously thinks that Padme and the galaxy will be safer under the Empire. Part of his internal dialogue is telling him that he is doing objectively evil things as Vader, but this voice is gradually enveloped as he commits more dark acts. He keeps putting off killing Palpatine and ruling the galaxy with Padme, until Padme's death, when he loses will and submits to Palpatine until the discovery of Luke in the OT.


    Besides, carrying out Palpatine's wishes isn't just the price of the pact, it directly increases Anakin's (and the Sith's) power and makes their goal to achieve control over life and death more reachable.
     
  24. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012

    Take the time to read your own description of the story, and then tell me how that fits into a 'Faustian pact'. Here's the deal, what a 'Faustian pact' entails - what it requires for a pay-off. The character must 'make a deal with the devil' - he must do something, or give up something, which he does not want to do or give up, as the price forsome outcome he does want. The outcome Anakin wants is to save Padmé, the price he must pay is to do Palpatine's bidding. The tear on Mustafar is meant to symbolize that he knows that what he is doing is wrong, is evil - and that what he is doing is the price he pays in his 'deal with the devil' to obtain his goal (saving Padmé). If, actually, he agrees with Palpatine's ideals and methods then....he isn't giving up anything - there is no 'deal with the devil'.

    If he believes in what Palpatine has him do then, why the tear? If he agrees with what Palpatine has him do then....what has he given up? He's just doing what he wanted, actually, to do - so it doesn't work as a Faustian pact. If he doesn't agree with what he is doing then...he hasn't brought into Palpatine's world-view. They are mutually exclusive propositions, mutually exclusive narratives. It isn't "more complex", it is a muddle of two different (distinct, non-compatible) narratives.
     
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  25. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    He has no problem killing the Separatist Council, but part of him is not happy that he killed the Jedi. The ones that had taken care of him, gave him a home and had given him a purpose. He agrees that the Jedi needed to be put to pasture, but he's not entirely happy about it. He has given up that part of his life, the life that he left his mother for. The life that he dreamed about. The relationships that he had in the Temple. Those are all gone now. He knows that he cannot turn back now and he knows that if Padme knows the full truth of what happened, it would be the end of everything.