ST The Romantic Future of Kylo Ren and Rey

When we use part and parcel theories, like say a Slavoj Zizek, the analysis takes on the quality of a shell game. You know, here I went Lacan, there I went Erikson.. perhaps I'll switch up to use the Frankfurt school to critique X,Y, Z. The point is we choose our source material based on an argument we wish to prove and the answer we want to get. If you want to have fun postulating than do it. Enjoy. But it isn't an actual critique because a proper critique involves discipline and consistency; otherwise, an adversary will simply find source material to counter yours and it all goes in circles.

I responded to a poster's suggestion that there were no counter arguments to a previous poster's critique of gifs from TFA.

I also said, that the critique ought to be applied to the entire film and not a series of snippets.

That is all.

 

This.

Romantic/sexual Reylo or non-romantic/sexual Reylo, I do agree that there was pretty heavy foreshadowing that Kylo will end up "teaching" Rey as the story progresses. Every single time that Rey used the force, she did so after Kylo demonstrated it first (possibly using the Force Bond, if they go that route). And then, yeah, the "You need a teacher" line.

 

Seizing a few minutes from real life to chime in. RJ is a brilliant storyteller so if somebody can pull this off, he's the one. Looper was a masterful sci-fi thriller with a tremendously emotionally satisfying outcome. As dark as the film is, it's a feat that it managed to be so human, and elicit feelings of such optimism. The film deals with themes of loss, unconditional love, compassion, redemption, moral relativism, self-sacrifice and even motherhood. And it does so cohesively... favoring substance over style, which can be rare for films of this genre. I thought the screenplay was genius, it may be futuristic but it's firmly rooted in the heart . Knowing that TFA is only the bridge into the actual story (as said by JJ) and that the real meat of the story will be explored in RJ's installment, I'm optimistic for the way these characters are going to evolve, mainly Kylo. JJ said they had to go back first, before they could go forward, but the next movie is going to be even more daring. In a way, the trilogy is built around this middle installment. As FrolickingFizzgig says, this first movie was one huge tease. That's exactly how I felt when I first left the theater which is why I was so dissatisfied at first. It was only when I let it all sink in, that I realized I was supposed to scavenge this film for clues, and understand that feeling teased and thristy for more was exactly the intention. I was supposed to fall in love with the new cast and care about where they'd go from here, from this bridge.

 

I would say we've been able to have this discussion because neither of us has attempted to shove opinions or interpretations on each other, which subtracts all potential hostility. We also aren't calling each other "blind" or "stupid" or insinuating that we "don't know how to interpret." You clearly know what you're talking about, and I would consider myself adept in this area of narrative comprehension as well. And yes, that's very true, the whole idea of a Kylo Ren and Rey love story is just extremely sensational right now. It really does sound like some over-the-top fanfiction, which is basically the reason I'm abstaining from insinuating that the writers are going in that direction. They might, and they might not. Ren's redemption is another thing altogether. It has to happen in order for the story to come full-circle. The character's downward spiral over the course of The Force Awakens was meant to elicit a very specific response from the audience. The writers wanted us to feel an attachment to him, just as much as they wanted us to grow attached to Rey and Finn. I am very invested in the future of the character — his plights, his sins, his inner-torment — because I can see that his redemption is just over the horizon. There is no satisfaction in watching a character I — and countless other people — became attached to as a result of the writers very intentional creative choices fall flat and become a manic psychopathic overlord.

I guess what I'm saying is that we all have very specific attachments to different aspects of this film, and we would each consider ourselves "experts" in what interested us the most. People love Ren because of his turmoil, because of his inner-conflict, because of the call to the Light he so desperately tries to deny, not because they want him to get uber powerful and wreck Luke, Leia and the galaxy. It would be unbelievably bad writing, and it would alienate every single one of the countless people invested in watching Ren develop into a character we can love for making the right decisions, not the destructive ones. That's how writing works, and Ren has been positioned to develop just this way.

 

Yet it always feels as though we're being chastised and called disgusting for feeling attachment to a fictional character. Guess what guys, we were supposed to. We were meant to become invested in Rey, Finn AND Ren. They are all equally important to the grander narrative. We were meant to become invested in Ren's development, all of which is pointing in the direction of redemption. I agree 100% with you, Camaro.

 

Before everyone settles on the idea of a Force Bond to explain Rey's skills, could I suggest another possibility?

In the struggle between Dark and Light, an actual physical exponent is required. Snoke seems unable to leave his geriatric care facility or whatever it is, so he needs Kylo Ren to be the physical body that throws out a hand and Force-chokes the minions.

For the Light side, it ought to be Luke, but Luke can't/won't engage. It's clear the Force ghosts of Obi-wan and Yoda are trying hard to get through to Rey. Perhaps they've identified her as a strong, resolute character of great goodness with a high level of FS, and they've elected to make her the Light side's champion to take on Kylo Ren? Perhaps they are pouring knowledge into her to counter Ren's challenges?

And perhaps their intrusion is what was detected by both parties during the interrogation?

 

Great analysis . Something similar from the anti reylos would always be appreciated

 

I agree that Ren's twirling his lightsaber around does not directly equate to sexual attraction. It strikes me as boasting of power and maleness or what we call virility. To me, if he twirls the lightsaber at Finn it conveys a different message than it does to Rey, but the underlying meaning is: look at my big red glowing powerful...lightsaber, look at how dexterously I wield it. You can say there is nothing phallic about that, but I disagree.

And btw, to me "I've never heard this before" is not indicative that an argument is any less valid.

 

That seems really convoluted to me... ghosts interfering? The Force "granting" Rey powers? The Force Bond theory just makes a lot more sense. Light and Dark champions? No, that's never how the Force has been shown to function. It's a valid theory though, just as much as anything else.

 

I would be interested in your deconstruction of Ren & Rey ( Thier ineractions), especially since you are a writer yourself.

 

I'm not arguing with you. I made an observation. It is an observation I have seen made in the exact same context toward people that think the interrogation scene was twisted. Something that we have seen before is being argued to be sexual in this case because Rey and Kylo are opposite sexes. That doesn't mean it's right or not, it's just an observation. I also didn't say that there is nothing phallic about a lightsaber. Obviously swords are phallic. I'm still personally not reading sexual undertones into the use of swords. I personally don't think the Kylo/Rey duel is a metaphor for sex. I think it was a fight where Rey kicked ass.

 

Really where? I must have missed it.

 

I would definitely say Adam Driver's sabre twirl has sexual undertones. This could be his take on the characters display.

 

Watched Looper and some of Letter Never Sent (one of the movies Rian made his crew watch) a while ago. Went through Brick and Brothers Bloom recently (trying to get myself to finally commit to Breaking Bad). Anyway. I get the sense that Rian likes to make his films a sort of stylistic puzzle construction. Of course, the trilogy is very much a collaborative effort with boundaries set by the studio, but reading through Pablo's tweets about the confusing timeline of Ren's betrayal vs the Jedi trainee 'massacre', my gut instinct is that one of the twists we'll be getting involves a retcon about Kylo Ren's exact actions in the past and why/when Rey was placed on Jakku. If it were another director or if some other things about the script/novel/related material weren't suspicious, I would predict a straightforward descent towards pure evil villainy for Kylo, but I just feel like we're not going to get that. Another thing is that in all of Rian's movies, the male protagonist is driven in some way by a love interest out of grasp. This pattern could fit either Finn or Kylo or perhaps even Rey in the upcoming films. I'm just looking forward to something "weird" as promised.

 

Well, that's Adam Driver for you. Thanks to Girls, he's one big walking sexual undertone. He twirls his saber a lot on that show too. They knew what message they wanted to convey when they cast him.

That said, there was a romance that began with "Either I'm gonna kill her, or I'm beginning to like her."

 

Gotta love The Force Awakens concept art. The second one is particularly interesting to me, with warm colours enveloping everything but the single grey chair and cloaked figure. It looks like a statue to me, but who knows? It creates some lovely contrast. I'm still looking for all the Finn/Rey concept art from 2012, but coincidentally it appears to be absent... I love the one with Finn looking in on the Stormtrooper brainwashing though.

 

FrolickingFizzgig Finn is absent because Sam (his original name) was never as big deal in the story development as Kira (now Rey) and Jedi Killer (now Kylo Ren). I think that Kylo's original name is the reason why everyone is talking about Jedi Academy massacre even though "destroyed it all" could mean something else other than a massacre.

This is a pretty great research by a reliable person that shows how characters evolved and that they never seem to have decided what legacy character Kira was supposed to be, but suddenly made Jedi Killer a legacy near the beginning of production:

http://awardswatch.com/forums/showt...S-Episode-VII-Thread-The-Bluth-Awakens/page35

First (long) post by Dent

 

from SW website

 

I'm sure they planned Ren and Rey's story long before Finn's, but I'm really happy that they chose to put more emphasis on Finn as a character. I hope they have an engaging and interesting direction for his development too. It would be really unfortunate if he was ignored for the rest of the trilogy. He lightens the mood.

 

They are not going to ignore him, lol. especially since Storm Pilot went down so well. I bet that 12 O'Clock Noon or whatever pilot movie Rian referenced as inspiration for VIII is about him and Poe.

"Oh Potter, you rotter, oh what have you done?
You're killing off students, you think it's good fun "

Force Ghost Peeves on Jedi Academy Massacre

 

Finn is on the first pages of the Art of the Force Awakens book. Finn is an origin story exactly in the same way Rey had an origin story. Arguably (easily argued imo) he had more character development than Rey did in TFA.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/j-j-abrams-told-us-the-origin-story-of-star-wars-the-1747119292

When Abrams sat down to rewrite the TFA script, he started with these two characters. He didn't say, "I knew I wanted Han and Leia's kid to be a Vader wannabe."

 

I also find it interesting that "Princess" Ben/Kylo is really the only character in the entire movie to be sexualized with styling, lighting, etc.

Typically, that falls on the female lead, and while Daisy is gorgeous and her natural beauty shines through, they really downplayed that in her role as Rey.

We're looking at Ben/Kylo in the way that we'd usually look at a damsel in distress, whereas Rey is the tough, gritty one--with the styling usually reserved for the male lead.

 

I'd imagine it would be like two people with Synesthesia having sex. In case anyone hasn't heard of this condition it's when a person's senses are mixed up. They hear colours; taste music; etc etc. A classmate at my University has it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia

And yes someone asked him what sex was like for him. He responded he was saving himself for marriage.

 

I read a lot of the background information on the script a while back. "Jedi Killer" (Ren) and "Kira" (Rey) were the first two established characters. "Sam" (Finn) was added to the mix later, and I agree with the decision. Finn is fantastic, and I'm really looking forward to what the writers decide to do with him. I wish they had left him with a more obvious direction, as I would have a lot more to say about him.

 

Obviously the villain and the primary hero were thought up first. Jedi Killer, however, was not legacy from jump, which is the most important piece of the puzzle in this particular thread. He started out as just the villain. When JJ rewrote things, he kept Rey and Finn, his two focuses, and then later seemed to decide to make the Jedi Killer legacy.

There's lots to say about Finn. He had lots of development and lots of screen time that was focused on his pov (I believe he is second only to Rey in face time in the movie). If you aren't interested in discussing those aspects of his character, that's cool, but they're there and there is plenty to talk about.