ST The Romantic Future of Kylo Ren and Rey

The subtle sexual undertones in their scenes are crazy. I cant believe I didn't notice his sharp intake of breath when he enters her mind in the interrogation scene, its a pleasure noise.

I think he was snooping around in her mind a lot more when he first met her in the forrest and I think we will see deleted scenes, as I said before there is a weird cut because his position alters within seconds.

It jumps from him being far away from her, to being right close to her face (like he was in the interrogation scene) what's more he jolts backwards when the stormtrooper comes like he's just been caught doing something intimate and embarrassing with her.

In the novel he's snooping around in her mind long before he is interrupted and takes her to his ship. To me it means he probably wanted to do this more but that wasn't the time or place, he's excited and so he takes her, forgets the droid (lol), at this point she is what his focus is about.

In the film, when he has her on the ship it's like he cant contain himself when he has the opportunity to go into her mind again.

 

So I'm thinking that Star Wars is going be huge at the MTV movie awards. Never cared for it, but I will this time around lol. I can see Star Wars cleaning house, but they do have stiff competition against Hunger Games and Mad Max I think. I think fans vote so that's why I'm thinking Star Wars will win big. I'm hoping Adam Driver will win best villain and he'll have to go up and be awkward up stage haha. I'm also hoping Daisy and Adam win best fight and have to go up and accept the award together. Fingers crossed!!! (I'm not one to ship the real people together, but I really want to see more Adam and Daisy interaction. We know she's super tight with Oscar and John, but what about Adam??)

 

Yea omg that's so hot though!
Like he goes so close so quickly! I noticed it too in the woods, when he jumps up as the storm troopers interrupt him. He definitely is overly curious besides looking for the map.

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"You know I can take whatever I want" when Ren states it during interrogation is definitely NOT about sex. I don't think that he has any sexual connotations towards Rey in his mind when he says it, apparent or subliminal, alike. The sexual context here is in the mind of the beholder/audience that chose to perceived it that way, imo (and not all of them did, though, hence many say the subtext is only in Reylos heads)
I actually perceived him delivering that as him being hurt, along with the sexual subtext. Him being hurt that she will not willingly give him what he wants because he doesn't want to make her do it like he can make others do it, others who mean nothing to him...hurt because he has tears in his eyes and his head is slightly tilted back...he thinks she is special: he carried her, showed her his ship, made her his guest and she is still defiant like that?!! *chuckles

Jokes aside, there is something in the conviction with which he says those words that made me take that as a factual truth, a certainty....that he really can take whatever he wants from whomever he wants it, and that he has done that many times in his life....whether it was about taking something from someone's mind (information or a feeling or a memory) or it was about taking someone's body (in a mutually consentual act, so I wouldn't be misunderstood)
That made ME think that his virginity is more metaphorical (emotional) than actual (physical).... and I do think he is lonely and detached from the world, but not because he didn't have sex with anyone, but rather because he hasn't given himself to anyone. ...there was no one to whom he would like to do that....before a scavenger poked his interest....at least that's the way I am reading this and how I chose to perceive it

I dunno....didn't see it that way....Of course I do think Snoke is manipulating him to an extent but I am not willing to believe that Ren is completely enthralled and a pupeteered by Snoke. ...that would pretty much remove any responsibility for what he did choose to do off him....and him holding himself responsible for what he did is something that, IMO, is crucial for his redemption and atonement...

Hmmmm...I would take that more like Snoke was interested in the innocence of Ben's mind not his body. ....because he did started to manipulate him when he was a child, right? I guess I don't get why would he be interested in the purity of his body back then...and later when he grew up I think Snoke would want him to have disfunctional relationships with women because that would turn him deeper to his isolation and loneliness making him further screwed up and wanting to reach to darkness to restore (illusion of) control....

I can respect that. But your comment does post a question in my mind...where would Ren find all the women to mess with, hahaha? On Starkiller base? Are there any female KOR?



Brobi-Wan

Hahaha...I still don't know what the hell are you saying, but it at least started to sound funny

 

I agree. ”Associating Ren with such common mortal attributes somehow betrays the character” is especially well said. It’s not that there’s anything special about virginity in the real world; it’s not a big deal at all. But in fairy-tale terms it would make him something special, as it isn’t too often that we see the prince in the role of the mythical virgin, let alone the villain. I see Ren as a highly unusual hybrid of the Big Bad Wolf and the Sleeping Beauty. The strangest Disney prince of all time.

It would also bring an interesting twist to the sexual symbolism associated with the character, the bridal carry and so forth, but especially the phallic symbolism of the lightsabre that crackles like unstable fire and, in Driver’s words, ”could spontaneously combust at any minute”. It could be interpreted as sexual energy that’s repressed and contained, but only just. He’s not allowed to be his natural self, and I see him as leading a life of miserable self-denial on every level. I don’t think the character would be as powerful and make as much sense - again, in fairy-tale terms - if he’s actually having a bit of fun every now and then.

The thing about emotional virginity versus physical virginity is interesting in realistic fiction, but I feel like the concept would be a bit too complicated for something like Star Wars…? The idea of desperate loneliness is easier to grasp in fairy-tale terms if the isolation is emotional, mental, physical, metaphorical, all of it. ”He’s had lots of casual girlfriends but nobody has ever really understood him, deep down” would take away much of the mythical potential of such a character.

I have to add that one additional reason why I’d prefer to think of Ren as a virgin is that some people already seem to see him as some kind of a metaphorical rapist or even actual sexual predator. It would take some of the edge off of those accusations, in a way, if he were the sole inhabitant of his isolated Mythical Virgin Island.

(I can’t resist repeating that I’m not a mythical beast either I have real-life experience of being a 30-year-old virgin so it isn’t exactly something that only happens in the realm of fantasy. And I don’t even have the excuse of having a Snoke watching my every move.)

 

Is it true that he also takes a little shuddering breath when she reads his mind?

 

But I guess that would be the beauty of this films...anyone can take it the way they want to, or are inclined to....projecting is inevitable, IMO
But that just leaves me wandering if THAT was intentional and masterfully constructed within TFA or is it just a figment of the viewers imagination? IMHO, I think it should be somewhere in between...
I have never shipped anything before in my life so I would like some input from more experienced shippers on the matter: don´t you think that most of these analyses exist only in our heads, or do you really think that the writers intended such deep ramifications of their work of fiction?

 

I agree, it can be read in many different ways.

I did immediately see sexual metaphors with that line because he looks at her body etc.
The Novel made me uncomfortable though, the way it explains what he's doing to her in her mind, it's quite sexual. Again that could just be my interpretation but the whole "pushing his probe into her, he brushed aside her feeble attempts to resist him and he discovered her anew" just had me cringing a little bit because it sounds so sexual but its forced and she doesn't like it.
Im quite glad we did not get that in the film really.

 

MOD WARNING: Hey kids lets stay civil and not bait each other. Not only will I ban you but so will my partners in crime. So let's stop. I get it that some of you are very passionate about Rey and Kylo on both sides of that fence. Doesn't mean you can't play nice with each other.

 

Somewhere in between, no doubt. That's the beauty of fiction: the creator provides only half of it, and the reader/viewer the rest

Most of the analysis I indulge in is pointless in terms of what actually might happen in the future films, but I do enjoy it nonetheless.


Edited to add: Did I miss something because I haven't noticed any baiting today? (I always get a bit paranoid, wondering if I've unwittingly said something offensive myself.)

 

YES..!
"Exactly...exactly... !" to quote my favorite radar technician.

I tried to describe this earlier, but your comments better capture what I was trying to say.
Adam would totally blow a scene of emotional power like that out of the water if it was allowed to happen in the context of the forthcoming story.
Absolutely.

Like I said previously, there is a real valid reason why JJ pursued and worked hard to convince Adam Driver to take on this role.
We have only seen a tiny bit of the huge iceberg of potential for this character, and I personally cannot wait to see what is coming next.

 

Wow, that came across arrogant. I'm not even a proponent of casual-hookups with Ren, I have a very particular view of what he does, how he does it and how often, but all of this is pointless speculation anyway. Calling someone else's view "ludicrous" or "betraying of the character" is unnecesary at best, condescending at worse. I'd also argue my opinion is as intellectual as yours but honestly, who the heck even cares, especially when it comes to something like this. We're just having fun coming up with ideas. Love your essays, etc. but (and I mean this in the nicest way possible) you're not the ultimate authority on Kylo Ren's characterization. I realize you've never said as much, but I have a feeling you may not realize that's how you come across at times. Maybe it's a question of the tone of your post more than anything. That kind of wording can be alienating to people with differing views.

 

Kylo's a virgin in some way (emotional or emotional and physical). He is so confused about what's happening to him when Rey's around while Hux and Storm Troopers figured it our right away, the moment he dismissed BB8 so he could bridal carry Rey. His libido awakened. Hux pretty much calls him out on it in front of Snoke. It's Kylo who can't define what's going on because he doesn't know.

 

Kybro is the one of the 3 most powerful men in the galaxy. He's had sex before. He might not have been intimate, might not have been all gushy, but he's had sex. Women love power. Not all of them, but a lot of them. Enough that he'd have the Star Wars equivalent of groopies available in droves.

I could see him having a friends with bens with some female FO underling types. That story has brotential. I doubt he's ever had a bromantic relationship. Those feelings are probably new.

 

Unless the writers, designers, and actor decide to spill the beans on what considerations specifically influenced their design and acting choices, we'll never know for sure if a character's sexual experience was intentionally coded into their design choices.

As someone who has worked with actors for years and been privy to seeing them develop characters, it seems inevitable to me that Adam Driver (at minimum) has some kind of conception of what his characters emotional/romantic/physical past has been (at least until the writers deliver him a script that contradicts previous choices by giving him an explicit romantic past) unless we have read the movie completely wrong. He was brought onboard for a trilogy, not a single film, and as the one "recruited" actor whose character arc was apparently sketched for him (to some degree) before he accepted the part, he must have some idea where Kylo Ren is going. He, at least, must know what genre he is performing in. He is also given tools as an actor, and those tools include his costume.

Even if the designers who clothed Kylo Ren were only thinking "Layers upon layers of black will look freaking awesome against a white snowy forest! Especially as the heroine chops flaming bits off!," the actor still had to put on the costume and inhabit it hour after hour after hour. There wouldn't have been a single moment in that performance when he wouldn't have been profoundly aware of what he was wearing and its implications for his own body and his character's. The actor would have been surrounded by costume and makeup people ensuring that his dress was perfect at all times. He wouldn't have been able to eat or have a cup of coffee or visit the craft table without peeling those gloves off his hands. The man couldn't see or move. The lighting would have had to have been adjusted around him all the time (black isn't easy to film). And what Adam Driver he said about his costume was "The costume — even putting it on at first — was very uncomfortable and tight. But there was something about someone who decides to completely hide themselves that I felt was kind of interesting . . ." (http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/herocomplex/la-et-hc-star-wars-adam-driver-20151221-story.html).

There is nothing natural about filming a movie. When we watch, we don't understand how it was made. But those super-close-up shots of Adam and Daisy during the sword fight, with the dewy faces and the shining eyes and the orgasmic expressions? That was not politely shot from a distance. That would have been shot over and over and over again by a camera that was probably less than a foot away from the actors' faces. There were lights to be set up and adjusted and perfected. They had stand ins and rehearsals. They had makeup people ensuring just the right amount of dishevelment.

I was an extra for Nurse Jackie once, and can actually be seen in the background (foul language warning, but the clip I am thinking of is the first 2 seconds of this scene and before any of the swearing):




I sat in that studio and watched them film that moment when the actor leans over Jackie's hospital bed bathed in light. You know what? There was no hospital bed. There was no Jackie. There was nothing but a director and an actor leaning over the camera. And they did that scene, that "lean in to the camera," over and over and over again with about half a dozen different approaches. And technically, it was freaking hard, because the actor not only had to be sincere to a character who wasn't there (because she was off in her dressing room making a phone call, raiding the craft table for some chocolate, or something like that, who knows?), but he had to make sure that his eyes focused on the exact right part of the camera every time or it wouldn't look like he was gazing into the viewer's eyes as he leaned down and smiled.

The level of intimacy and the suggestiveness of the interrogation scene and the sword fight cannot be construed as accidental or imaginary in any way. I assure you. The implications of a bridal (or monster) carry are not accidental either (though it can be interpreted in at least two ways at this point: either as the beginning of a romance, or the beginning of a monster abduction).

Shippers can be wrong about what they are seeing due to misreading clues, or due to reading too much into what they see (I doubt very much that Force Awakens had a team of scholars doing world building, but I am certain that the many different collaborators drew on research and shared their ideas to come up with a harmonious whole). But it would be foolishness to suggest that shippers are responding to things that aren't there at all. They are there. They were put there. The creators had to work very hard to put these things there. The actors, if they are good (and I am going to assume that a Julliard-trained actor has some experience and skill building a character and thus he's not a hack reading lines), have made choices based on every bit of information they were given.

The clip I posted of earlier this morning showing Alan Rickman talking about Snape's buttons was intended to illustrate this magical collaboration between actor, director, and designer. Something as simple as a costume can give a lot of nuance to a character.

 

This will be me if this ship doesn't happen!!!





Only I'll be think WHY!!!!!!!

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Allow me to add my thank you as well for IMB. Now if I can figure out how to favorite your AO3 name, we're set! I've got a coupke stories bookmarked at AO3 and FF.net. Waiting for the next chapter in O Night and Stars Return by greenfire87 on FF.net. This thread is the place to go when I need another Reylo fix.

 

AnneNeville

Most perfect description of that particular scene when they lock swords, he asks her to be her teacher and all that follows.

 

If romance forums are any indication this type of heroic villain is one of the most wanted ones in romantic novels. I'm not talking about byronic hero, oh no, but literally a character that does pretty dark deeds, some even in the end don't fully redeem themselves, more so walk the grey line between good and evil, but he still gets the girl. A common thing in most of them is as dark and twisted as this character is, he treats heroine differently than the rest of the people and often starts leaning towards the light because of her. I agree though it's not often that we see such stories in the movies that are connected to big names like Disney . That is why I love it when I hear that the next Star Wars movie is going to be different and darker than the rest, it gives me hope.

 

Seriously, "a betrayal of the character"? Wut?

I hope that I can have opinions that differ from that of other Kylo/Rey fans here without having my loyalty to Kylo Ren called into question. I don't even know what loyalty to Kylo Ren even means at this point, anyway?? I have my idea of who he is, and y'all have yours. We don't need to hold the same view and we CANNOT because we're all coming from different perspectives and life experiences. I think this whole argument is funny and I'm saying all of this partly with amusement, but this is where we risk going from a think tank (which I love) to an echo chamber. There's no need for this.

I agree with all your thoughts on this. I want for this to happen so, so much. From the moment I saw TFA and became invested in Kylo Ren as a character, I knew that he had to have his moment of realization that he's been so, so wrong. He needs to feel that emotional impact, that moment of utter realization that all he has fought for has been wrong, that he's been used by Snoke and that he's caused so much suffering. I want that rapid succession of emotions to play across his face. Driver would absolutely nail that scene.

 

I apologize if my post came across as arrogant. In all fairness I said repeatedly (in previous posts broaching the topic) that this was my opinion, my perspective and my interpretation of the character, and that nobody has to agree with it. This isn't like the common anti argument of "killing Han extinguished all Light in Ren", which we all know is canonically false. We're probably never going to get a clear answer. That said, I never expressed that I was the "ultimate authority on Kylo Ren"... I never even insinuated that I believed that to be the case. Many of us have equally accurate and intellectual—sometimes conflicting—interpretations of Ren as a character. I can see him one way, someone else can see him another way, and I can disagree with that secondary interpretation without necessarily believing it to be false (as that would imply we have facts we don't have). I don't think the casual hook-up interpretation of Ren is unintelligent or wrong, I just don't agree with it. I really don't agree with it. It makes me uncomfortable, and it betrays my personal interpretation of the character. I'm sure others who don't share my opinions believe my interpretations to be just as ludicrous. That doesn't mean both interpretations aren't equally valid and supported by evidence in the narrative and characterization. We don't have the facts to discount either interpretation, and we likely never will.

As for my wording, I don't know what I can do about that. I picked the terms I felt best described my sentiments. I can't control the way others take what I write... I've been described as condescending before (by antis). I wasn't trying to dismiss other interpretations, just chiming in with my own interpretation because I believe there is a lot of evidence to support it. It's not like we're ever going to know either way, not unless someone actually asks Driver or Abrams.

I'm sorry if I offended you. That was not my intention. We can disagree without calling each other arrogant or condescending, at least in my opinion.

rowan_greenleaf
I don't agree with your interpretation. It is a betrayal of my interpretation of the character, not the character as a whole. He's not my character. What do I know? I thought it was fairly obvious I was speaking from a place of personal perspective in that entire post. I made it very clear that anything broaching the subject was my opinion, nothing more and nothing less. I was not insinuating that your opinion was "wrong", just that I didn't agree with it. More than one person in the thread (myself included) gave evidence and analyses based on why we didn't agree with it, and you replied with "I can have my own opinion" when none of us insinuated that you couldn't.

 

My god I must be going crazy, but I actually understood what you said
I kinda agree with it.....lol

 

I see most of you guys discussing about Kylo sex life huh . TBH im not really into that discussion because i dont really care how his sex life was. Personally to me if Kylo a virgin it will add more depth to his character. He pretty much like Knight Of Templar and it seem he fight holy crusade on extermination of the jedi. From what i read Knight of Templar code seem forbidden to have physical contact of any kind with women, even members of their own family. Maybe Lucasfilm get/draw the inspiration from Knight Of Templar for Kylo Ren characterization just like they get inspiration from monk to create jedi code.

 

Eek, I have to clarify that I don't know what exactly FrolickingFizzgig meant with the "somehow betrays the character" (I'll let them to speak for themselves) but I didn't mean (or read) it as a criticism of other differing opinions. I understand now that it may have come across that way, but I only meant it in terms of "betraying" the character as he comes across to me - as an intriguing hybrid of fairy-tale, subverted fairy-tale and real psychological struggle. Someone larger than life, whose struggle, though framed in a psychologically convincing way, still takes place on a plane that's more myth and fairy-tale than the real world with real-world matters like casual hook-ups.

I hope it goes without saying that these are all just opinions and interpretations - or headcanons - and I'm certainly not trying to put others down if I disagree on something I apologise if it ever comes across that way!

 

We've been on a 1 day detour from our usual topics of discussion to revisit a past debate on the secrets of Kylo Ren's boudoir. We are probably due for a change of topic. But this one does incite passionate feelings, clearly.