The Second Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [Congratulations KiwiRogue]

Ah, dang. I think you've got this (again!) Shurron, unless numbers work out perfectly for me.

 

*whew*

Well, we'll see. Anything can happen. Numbers in a sec.

 

Well, a couple of things...

Buffalo Bill's isn't so bad, with the two Skywalkers having some connections

Really, how do they have connections aside from the same last name? In that case, you should note Kol and Leia in the same vein for the Knights.

Obi-Wan was tentative to go fight Darth Vader. How eager is he going to be to take on Anakin, his brother and former padawan who hasn't fallen to the darkside?

You're kidding, right? I sincerely hope you didn't base any of your judgement off of this, considering the fact that the entire concept of the Jedi Draft consists of setting these kinds of reluctances aside when it comes to players versus other players-- otherwise, I'd simply draft a team with Mara, Leia, and Allana all the time, since top dogs like Luke, Anakin, and Jacen respectively are going to be incredibly tentative facing them.

And that maybe, just maybe, he'd like to show him that could be the Jedi he should be, and that maybe Obi-Wan was holding him back. Maybe, just maybe.

The fact that any type of reluctance from Kenobi doesn't come into play aside, we get to see what basically equates to Skywalker unleashed in RotS as the brand new Vader-- and without anyone holding him back, he's still bested by Kenobi.

I'm not sure either of Cade or Kol would want to go up against each other, and I'm fairly certain they'd do whatever they could to avoid having to battle each other, even if it meant taking on opponents they can't defeat.

Again, this is...these aren't intangibles, and I really hope you didn't base your decision off of this kind of logic.

The Horn line's inability to use TK could hurt here, too, as a battle this close could call on every possible edge a team or individual can grab.

And yet, you fail to mention, as both Kiwi argued and I noted before, how their natural affinity towards the Force absorption ability could make up for this inability.

To be honest, though, superior cohesion or not, no matter who they're facing, the top of the other team or the bottom of the other team, the backfield for Shining Knights is going to go down faster than the backfield for Buffalo Bill.

Interestingly enough, you don't provide any evidence whatsoever for an individual breakdown you put such emphasis on. Especially considering Jolee > Nejaa. Honestly. But at least you spelled his name right.

 

You got something at stake here, Ken?

 

All that is pure and good in this world.

 

You misunderstand me. I didn't mean a connection with each other, I meant they have connections with other members on the team (Cade with Shado, Anakin with the PT-era Jedi).

And, no, I'm not kidding about tentativeness. You can't just ignore that element. Otherwise, we wouldn't care if you paired to mortal enemies against each other. Because surely you could just as easily set that aside.

And I'm still trying to figure out why you, Ken, are trying to play up the Vader-Kenobi duel as such a great victory for Kenobi. It was basically a draw until Vader decided to do a very stupid jump. If the battle takes place, I don't know, anywhere but a giant lava pit, there's no need for such an attempt. It's not like Anakin was completely pwned by Kenobi or anything, so don't make it seem like he was.

There's really no need to get so worked up about a match that's so close. It's not like I'm putting Thon over Jacen Solo or anything.

 

<center><h2>Championship Match</h2></center>

Mustafar Conference Champion vs. Hoth Conference Champion

Buffalo Bill's Dance Party (0) vs. Shining Knights (0)

Let's do this one last time with number 6 kicking us off ...

<img src="http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d42/DarthIntegral/Bindo.png">

Jolee Bindo

<h1>vs.

<img src="http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d42/DarthIntegral/Saba.png"> + <img src="http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d42/DarthIntegral/Tesar.png"></h1>

Saba Sebatyne TRUMPED with Tesar Sebatyne

 

How did I lose this ****?

 

Wang: You got something at stake here, Ken?

All that is pure and good in this world.

And maybe some nachos?

Inty: You misunderstand me. I didn't mean a connection with each other, I meant they have connections with other members on the team (Cade with Shado, Anakin with the PT-era Jedi).

Gotcha.

And, no, I'm not kidding about tentativeness. You can't just ignore that element. Otherwise, we wouldn't care if you paired to mortal enemies against each other. Because surely you could just as easily set that aside.

Well then you're going against basically every single Draft there ever was, or at least every one I've been a part of, up until a couple ago. The idea of cohesion, which is specifically taken into account, is how well people are going to work together, and if two mortal enemies are on the same team, then it affects how well they're going to do that. Yet there's been multiple times when matches have come up, like Luke vs. Mara or something, and someone has argued that Luke wouldn't want to kill her. Well of course he wouldn't, but this is a game where he does-- where it's had to be specifically set aside. Could you just as easily set aside cohesion? Sure. But that's not how it works, unless at some point this changed?

And I'm still trying to figure out why you, Ken, are trying to play up the Vader-Kenobi duel as such a great victory for Kenobi. It was basically a draw until Vader decided to do a very stupid jump. If the battle takes place, I don't know, anywhere but a giant lava pit, there's no need for such an attempt. It's not like Anakin was completely pwned by Kenobi or anything, so don't make it seem like he was.

Whoaaa, I'm not trying to make it seem like he got "pwned" at all. Hardly, time and again I said this battle would be incredible-- and I'll go on the record for the nillionth time if I have to...Anakin Skywalker versus Obi-Wan Kenobi is one of the greatest matches imaginable. Period. Which it is, when we get to see a version of it in RotS (almost my exact words in a previous judgement of Vader). Considering this match, however, where Kenobi matches maneuver for maneuver what basically equates to this unleashed Anakin you referred to in your original quote, as well as the abundance of other support for Kenobi (other matches vs. Vader, more experience, a perfect form matchup, etc.), the victor is clear to me-- and that is what I try to convey in my arguments.

There's really no need to get so worked up about a match that's so close. It's not like I'm putting Thon over Jacen Solo or anything.

Or Anakin Skywalker.

EDIT: Oh, and...

Jolee Bindo vs. Saba Sebatyne trumped with Tesar Sebatyne

Yeah, overkill.

Winners: Saba Sebatyne trumped with Tesar Sebatyne

 

Ill take the trump on this too

 

<center><h2>Championship Match</h2></center>

Mustafar Conference Champion vs. Hoth Conference Champion

Buffalo Bill's Dance Party (0) vs. Shining Knights (1)

This post will only contain forfeits ...

From Number 1

Shaak Ti TRUMPED with Kyle Katarn

vs.

Tesar Sebatyne (forfeit)

From Number 2

Kyle Katarn (forfeit)

vs.

Corran Horn TRUMPED with Leia Organa-Solo

And from Number 5

Anakin Skywalker

vs.

Leia Organa-Solo

 

<center><h2>Championship Match</h2></center>

Mustafar Conference Champion vs. Hoth Conference Champion

Buffalo Bill's Dance Party (2) vs. Shining Knights (2)

And so number three will almost assuredly give us the champion ...

<h1><img src="http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d42/DarthIntegral/Vos.png"> + <img src="http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d42/DarthIntegral/Cade.png"></h1>
Quinlan Vos TRUMPED with Cade Skywalker

<h1>vs. </h1>
<img src="http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d42/DarthIntegral/ObiWan.png">

Obi-Wan Kenobi

 

Now there is a fight. It seems the Obi-wan is the man of the draft this time around. Beating Anakin and Darth Vader. Let's see if he can win this match

 

Good match.

 

I knew it, I knew it! I'd toyed with ditching the second trump myself in case you were gonna do exactly that. I typed the trump in, pulled it back, typed it in, pulled it back. Like eight different times.

Worst part is, I'd actually settled on taking the second trump out, but I accidentally sent in the numbers with the two trumps there. Then when I was about to PM Inty with an "Oops" messages to change it, something else came up that I had to take care of, and I just figured I'd let 'em go out as is. Whatever, right?

So now there's this... *sigh* I can argue it, but... is there any point, guys? Not you, Ken. We all know where your vote's going.

 

Well, this is a match worthy of deciding this draft. Quinlan Vos is a beast, and Cade is an up-and-coming beast. But Obi-Wan Kenobi is a beast slayer. There is absolutely no cohesion to this trump to speak of, with the two being of two different eras, so this match is pretty much Obi-Wan vs two individuals attacking him at once. And Kenobi certainly can handle two attackers at once with Soresu. Especially after going against Greivous' four lightsabers, attacking at eighteen strikes per second. Quinlan Vos, knowing Obi-Wan and his reputation, would be cautious, but Cade on the other hand would probably be more reckless, leaving himself open at one point for Kenobi to take advantage of, and when that occurs it becomes Kenobi vs Vos, which, while good to watch, is in no doubt.

(Pre-Edit: What were you going to do and what happened Shurron?)

 

Let me just clear something up right now. Cade is not going to charge in like an idiot. What in the world makes you think that he would? Because his last name is Skywalker, which is the same as Anakin's? Which means that, of course, he's going to do exactly what Anakin did against Dooku when they first met? Because Cade charged in at Nihl? Did Obi-Wan kill Kol now?

There's nothing personal going on here, so Cade's head is not going to clouded with anger and general stupidity.

Also, they obviously taught history at the academy, as he immediately recognized the image of Mara in his hallucinations. The image of an even bigger legend than her, like Obi-Wan, would almost certainly be recognizable as well, and, once again, Cade is not an idiot. He's not going to charge in like an angry moron at Obi-Wan kriffin' Kenobi.

EDIT: Okay, my bust. I don't know where, but I totally thought you used the phrase "charge in" in that post. I must be going crazy. Okay, but reckless. Again, same thing. That's doubtful, considering he's almost certain to know exactly who Kenobi is. And if not, he's got someone there who can tell him right quick, and he'll damn sure know the name.

 

I did not say he would charge in like an idiot, I said he would probably (indicating that I wasn't sure, having not personally read Legacy) be more reckless (than Quinlan Vos), which I take to believe that he may be overconfident.

Geeze. I may have deserved other headbites, but I don't think this one.

EDIT: Alrighty then, that's more clear and does make sense.

 

I can't tell you how tempted I am to ask John and Jan to weigh in on this match. I mean, who would know better exactly how good Quin and Cade are than the people who created them?

But I really do kinda want to know if it's worth me even getting into this in detail.

 

I suppose I'll take the lack of a response to mean that an argument from my end wouldn't be a total waste of time.

I'll try to have something up tomorrow.

 

Not a total waste of time at all. I think you should have learned by this stage of the draft that I am indeed fairly high on Quinlan Vos. And that I'm not completely familiar with Cade, since I'm TPB-only on Legacy at this point in time, which means I've read very little past "Broken" (I did read the "Emperor Fel at Bay" issue while waiting for the Harry Potter release, but that's it). And that means I'm going on second-hand accounts for Cade's power, skill, experience. So yeah, arguments are good.

Definitely leaning, and leaning hard, towards Kenobi here, though, so your work is cut out for you.

 

Ah, well, that's the thing, really. A lot of what I would say hinges quite a bit on my opinion of Cade. And I think we've established here that, as of now, it's a good deal higher than that of two out of the three judges we have here.

And I'm not sure I could really present a whole lot more on Cade that I didn't get to in that trump/trump match. And if that didn't sway you, then I'm doubtful anything else I say at this point will, either.

So I guess what I'm saying is, if you're stuck on Saba > Cade, go ahead and vote Kenobi now. Because Quin, badass as he is, isn't winning this with a trump partner that can't beat Saba. Of course, that's not what I think he's stuck with, but, yeah...

 

I guess I'll pitch in here, if only because the judges would seem to favor Kenobi on this. Personally I haven't really made up my mind here (leaning towards the trump slightly), though this is much closer than it seems.

We're all aware Kenobi is very well-equipped to take on almost any amount of numbers, so the trump may only have a slight advantage in their "superior numbers." I see no problems in the Vos/Cade partnership, cohesion isn't great though. It isn't at all bad in any sense, and they probably won't have any problems working together.

Moving on. Power seems in favor of the trump (at least to me). Cade is an absolute powerhouse, and Quinlan's no pushover either. Together it seems clear their combined power tops Kenobi's. Kenobi isn't exactly renowned for his power, I can't recall any displays of power that are even comparable to Cade's reviving Wolf and Marasiah Fel. Cade's telekinetic abilities seem further developed than Kenobi's as well, as again I can't recall any feat of Kenobi's (relating to his telekinetic abilites) that tops Cade's throwing a starfighter/rubble/Darth Talon quite a bit of a ways on Vendaxa. I'm not going to list feats here, as it seems somewhat clear to me, especially after you factor in Vos.

Skill seems relatively even. The number of notable kills Vos and Cade have racked up is very impressive to say the least, though the same can be said for Kenobi. Just to list these, Vos fought/killed several Morgukai warriors, defeated Bulq, fought the Witches of Dathomir, and more impressively fought Windu (although the duel was "interrupted"). Cade's fought and arguably defeated Nihl as well as Talon on Vendaxa, took on an Acklay on the same planet, fought/captured Hosk Treylis, sparred with Shado, fought a vision of Darth Vader, and also fought a handful of Yuuzhan Vong on Ossuss. Also, I doubt anyone can forgot Cade fighting the waves of Sith lackeys during the Invasion of Ossuss alongside Shado.

Kenobi, on the other hand has killed Darth Maul (though many Star Wars fans call this a fluke), fought Dooku on two occasions, killed General Grievous, defeated an unsuited Vader, fought Durge on Muunilist, fought Ventress on several occasions and defeated her a few times, and then later on fought a suited Vader on the Death Star.

Overall, we really have a quality vs. quantity situation, though truthfully I can't determine who deserves the edge here. Either way, it would be a very, very slight edge to whomever receives it to say the least. I'll call this a push.

Experience goes to Kenobi, again we have a quality vs. quantity situation, though quality should be given a whole lot more priority here, and victories don't need to be taken into account nearly as much as they do in the skill category.

I guess I'll adress intangibles as well. Not sure if they need to be taken into account here, though I guess I'll give it a shot. As I said before, the numbers of the trump give them only a very slight advantage. Kenobi is very resourceful, and can adapt well to any situation. He has a good amount of stamina as well. Same could be said for the trump, maybe lesser so, though the fact remains. I would call this a push as well.

So we have:

Power: Trump
Skill: Push
Experience: Kenobi
Intangibles: Push

In my opinion, the trump pulls this out by a hair. Power and skill are normally given higher priority than experience, which is in turn given higher priority than intangibles (which normally don't matter much at all).

Still though, I feel as though I might be missing something, somewhere. If anyone wants to point this out (assuming I am in fact missing something), feel free to do so.

 

Hey, it's great when people do my work for me! There's also a couple things to be said about the cohesion, or possible lack thereof, of my trump, but like I said, tomorrow. Not that it's an epic essay, or anything.

Oh, but Cade didn't have anything to do with the Acklay, did he? That was all Wolf and Shado, wasn't it?

 

Well, Cade fought the Acklay (along with his two buddies and Marasiah), then Shado and Wolf finished it off. That's what I remember anyways.