ST The ST: What Would You Change/Revise?

Ok, we’ll come to the opening battle next.

Are we agreed on the saber toss being revised tonally?


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Agreed. This is just an experiment.

 

I'll say that's an easier adjustment to make. Have Luke toss aside the lightsaber like he does in ROTJ, which might cue the audience into thinking "Oh I've seen this before," as opposed to "WTF."

 

Super simple fix:
Leia: We've just lost the carrier Calrissian with all of our Y-wings! Poe, we can't take out the dreadnaught without them! Call off the attack!
Poe: We've still got those old bombers, don't we? They can do the job!
Leia: They're obsolete, they'll never survive the attack, we're just using them to transport munitions.
Poe: And I know just where they can transport those munitions, right down the dreadnaught's throat.
Leia: Call off the attack, thats an ord-
Poe: Sorry, general, you cut out.

I'm on board. Anything that isn't shock humor.

 

I’ll let the thread build up a bit (or die, whichever happens first ) then we’ll agree on the crawl, the saber and focus fully on the space battle and the humour with Hux and Poe. I think as much as possible we should work chronologically. It’ll make things easier to track. And we will need to keep an eye on how a change affects everything else through the story.


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That Leia/Poe exchange, seems a bit cringe and prequel era dialogue-wise.

 

I think we can look at making the bombers not destroyed quite so easily maybe. I don’t think we need dialogue to set them up. I also think we want to avoid lots of little lore name checks like explaining why they’re not Y-wings.


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Fans here are starting with a simple edge that Rian questionably didn't use. Anyone's ideas here have the advantage of actually seeing the first movie of the ST before trying to design a sequel.

If you don't know what movie you're following, you're automatically starting on a bad foundation.

 

I'm not claiming to be a Hollywood writer, so I don't expect my dialogue to be up to snuff. I'm just trying to get the idea across as to why they wouldn't be using Y-wings. Pretty straightforward: They just lost the Y-wings, and the bombers are all they've got left, even if they're obsolete.

I figure its better to keep the basic course of the battle the same, rather than change it by making the bombers more durable/faster/better.

 

This kind of baiting is not welcome here.

 

That wasn't baiting and I changed the word to questionably. But if you're going to design or revise a sequel are you going to take the original into account?

 

Yes, and so did TLJ. This is not going to turn into a debate about that, because there are plenty of threads where that can happen.


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Move the setting ahead by months. This back to back is a conceit that doesn’t work.

Start Rey Luke training in media res. Well intentioned and helpful character subversion of Luke can still be delivered, but it dawns on the viewer. Have a sit down backstory scene as was successfully demonstrated in SW77 and ROTJ. Hold recollection of the resolution of the Rey Luke lightsaber scene until a carefully chosen moment when Rey needs to learn something crucial. It can retain the lightsaber flip, but the context will make the subversion sensible.

A technobabble line that the Imperial ships are unable to do a precision jump to cut off the fleeing Rebels, to explain why that doesn’t happen.
A technobabble line that the Rebel cruiser is specially designed for the tactic it took, to explain why the tactic is surprising.

As this offering is mainly about Kylo Ren, have Kylo Ren give one line (~10 words) about where he first encountered Snoke or who Snoke was to him, at that original time. Have Kylo Ren give one line (~10 words) about what the First Order was, at that original time. He can tell Rey, who is otherwise already the main avatar.

 

Thanks (were you referring to mine?). I also find it funny seeing your avatar as Palpatine and you saying things haha. I just wish that these sequels felt more complete. I think there needs to be a focus on a coherent story. And I'm all for heroines and heroes. I like Jyn in Rogue One (and I love Cassian and Chirut etc). But I just don't feel that Rey as what appears to be the primary protagonist feels like a character. She doesn't seem to grow. With Princess Leia we see her personality throughout the OT. Same with Padme. And with Anakin and Luke, and Windu etc, even Palpatine, we see each character grow, succeed, fail, fall etc. Even wise Master Yoda!

With Rey, we have someone who can do everything, speak more languages than C3PO, who is fluent in over 6 million forms of communication, fly the Millennium Falcon better than anyone, having never piloted a single starship (if Rey does the Kessel Run, she'll do it in just 1 parsec) and use the Force straight from the get go outdoing not only Luke Skywalker, but the Chosen One, Palpatine, Yoda, Windu, Kenobi, pretty much on her first day. I mean whatever she's doing, she should train an entire order of Jedi Knights, or with so much power, maybe Rey will be Supreme Leader. It's too artificial.

I have nothing against the actors and actresses, it's just that the writers don't appear to have sorted out that the story should be the focus, and what makes the characters great is that story and how they fit into it.

And I do think that in the main Star Wars SAGA, the focus should be on the Skywalker family. Assuming we are going for a happy ending and they told us that there would be 3 films (unless there will be another 3 after this), the Skywalker surely has to be on the good side by the end. So for Rey to be a MAIN character, surely she has to be a Skywalker. And it would also at least explain her unparalleled strength with the Force. From the PT, it is established that whilst the Force is an energy field that connects with life forms based on their midicholorians and that certain people may demonstrate stronger skills. Anakin is said to be this Chosen One (an event that does not occur every day clearly by the reaction of the Jedi). And in the OT, on several occasions we are told that "The Force runs strong in your family", by Yoda etc. This surely means that unless Yoda himself had offspring on the sly, to be so strong in the Force and take on Ben Solo, Rey must have to be a Skywalker if she is demonstrating such skills at this point?

Luke had training by Obi Wan and wasn't perfect in Episode IV, V and arguably even in VI (he won morally, but was not powerful enough to take on the Emperor alone). Anakin, also was not as powerful as Rey, before he lost his limbs. At this point, I'm not sure even Palpatine would have dared carry out his plan with Rey around.

I just feel that the Skywalker Saga element of Star Wars within the main saga has been forgotten? No one questions that the Force is within all of us. But Star Wars had exposition, galactic state of affairs, and rational explanations set within the context of the rules of the galaxy what the Force is. If I may phrase a favorite quote from the sequels by Han Solo, the writers don't seem to realise that what they are showing is: "Not how the Force works!"

Look I love Star Wars. And I loved seeing both films in the cinema and still watch them (or will watch in the future). They are extremely entertaining. But I can't help but feel like these don't flow naturally with ON SCREEN information only from the other films. Watching Episode VII after Episode VI feels a little odd. It's super fun to watch and visually SPECTACULAR for sure. NO question. But the story feels off.

Lucas' Star Wars, whether it be PT, or OT, had exposition. You knew who the players were without having to research for hours on end in some online dictionary or television show what happened. We had connections to the planets shown, destroyed or mentioned. We knew who was in charge, who was fighting them. There was mystery with PAYOFF. There was character growth, with failures, successes and plot twists. I feel like here, they haven't gone with what Lucas intended and we aren't really making the story the main focus. And we don't appear (unless there is some major turn around and twist in Episode IX) to be focusing on the Skywalkers, the focal point of the SAGA films. Nor are we explaining what happened in between the OT and ST.

We mustn't forget this is NOT a brand new franchise. You are telling us this is Episode VII and Episode VIII, that are a continuation of the story. Imagine reading a book. You get to chapter 7 and suddenly you have jumped ahead in time with no explanation whatsoever of what just happened and your main characters behave completely differently. The Empire you loved is gone with no explanation, replaced by a corrupt Republic of which you are not told about and is then destroyed, for which you feel nothing.

I feel excited and am so grateful we have more Star Wars. I personally thought Rogue One was a great film. But seeing the Star Wars celebration, seeing Mark Hamil's interviews and speeches, I can't help but feel super sad. It's like they have indeed gone down the route of merely making a film to "sell". And for them that is enough for a successful film. The original Star Wars films sold because of a STORY. These SEQUELS were ALWAYS going to sell. They would have sold more and gone down in history as perhaps the greatest Star Wars ever if they had done this better in my view at least. More flashbacks like in Episode VIII would help. More Luke being Luke rather than this Luke we don't know. And explaining who is Snoke (not keen on the name unless it's a code like "PLEASE" was in HIMYM). Maybe Snoke stands for (So Not Obiwan KEnobi?)

I feel like two thirds of the way in, we have spent too much time focusing on replicating nostalgia and visual effects and simply trying to make the new cast as awesome as can be (with no explanation) without realising that we had to explain the time gap between OT and ST. Without establishing what the story arc is.

They could have neatly tied this all together with a Plageuis, or even Windu dark side story line. Imagine the irony of Plageuis twice failing to see his apprentice turn on him. For Snoke to be a random bad guy having risen without any explanation feels cheap at best. So anyone can take over the galaxy now? What was the point of toppling Palpatine? And the point of Palpatine's brilliant elaborated plan to take over in the first place?

Rey should be a Skywalker to keep this as a Skywalker saga. I don't think people get the protagonist has to be in order to make this a happy ending (unless they will end with the First Order obliterating everyone and ruling for ten thousand years). On top of that, I don't think we really see Rey grow, develop, or fail as all other characters (especially the Skywalkers) have done so in the other 6 films. From Qui Gon, to Maul, to Palpatine, to Windu, to Yoda, to Obi Wan. Especially to Anakin, to Padme, Luke, Han and Leia.

Currently, Leia can speak more languages than C3PO. She can do more than Dak and take on the entire First Order by herself. She can best Luke (the last of the Jedi Knights for all we know) in a fight. Fly the Kessel Run in the Millennium Falcon without a copilot in 1 parsec and 1 handed. She is awesome, but you don't feel the same connection to her character as you do Leia, because she could do all of this from day one without any explanation. Superman was invincible, but because of Earth's Sun. I mean even he had vulnerabilities. Palpatine had his arrogance etc.

The ST are visually absolutely spectacular. Give us a story arc, and they would be awesome. But I do seriously think that Episode VII and Episode VIII could have been MUCH BETTER if told better.

I don't think the OT required any off screen explanation to understand the wider story. The PT certainly didn't. And we can't wait forever for the ST to correct, as we will run out of films and it will be too late!

I remember seeing people say wait for Episode VIII they will explain everything.... They didn't. And now we are two thirds of the way in without having corrected for deviating from the story for the sake of bigging up the new cast and trying to stifle out the old saga legacy.

Action wise, visually, sound wise, the new sequels are phenomenal. They just need to tie in to the whole saga, have better ON SCREEN exposition and a story.

 

I can go with the technobabble line if it wipes out that complaint, sure (a precision jump). I don’t think we need one for the Holdo jump.

We’re not going to start with Luke training Rey because that changes everything. And I don’t think we should lose the gradual mystery behind Luke’s Exile. I think that plays well as it is and you weaken the impact of the Rashomon scenes if you mess with that too much.

We can try and find a way for some further Snoke and Kylo context, but that will be quite tricky I think.


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I'd of made Kylo Ren's real name Benjamin Solo.

 

Since the Kylo / Rey relationship is the primary undiscovered country, this minimal exposition on Kylo's part (~20 words) can be framed as him feigning the weakness to be understood by Rey. The audience sees, and the audience learns, and his abilities as a manipulator are enhanced. The character can really use this because Palpatine has already set a high bar for what it takes to tighten a grip on a galaxy. This kills three, not just two, birds.

 

I'd have made Ben Solo/Kylo Ren shoot at Poe first on Jakku.

Poe didn't fire first....

 

What does that scene look like then?

I kind of feel it’s a bit shoe-horned to suddenly have them talking about Snoke. You’d have to lead in. Maybe in the scene where she talks about Han and he admits to being a monster.

But what would they say?

It has to play on Kylo’s insecurities I think.

 

Interesting idea! I like it. Assuming the story stays roughly the same right? I do hope this was George Lucas' story though and I kinda wonder when I see what people posted here about Mark Hamil. I feel like Mark might provide us with the best answer for what should go down!

But I think:

1. Humour - I loved what Luke did with that leaf on Rey's hand. Feel the Force. I would have liked to see R2-D2 also use his electric shock. Actually an R2-D2 and BB8 versus a single First Order droid with a dual shocker (like a dual lightsaber) fight scene on Coruscant should be in this film haha. I think, humour by Luke and Rey was decent. Finn, not so sure, needs to be dialled back. Leia was fantastic.

2. The Hut, I'm not sure what you mean? Do you mean the Flashback? If so, I think we needed much much much more flashback (this should have been done in Episode VII). So for starters, a rough explanation of how Luke wanted to accept an offer by the main faction of the Empire to become its heir to ensure a peaceful transition back to the ways of old, whilst maintaining whatever good the Empire had. The extreme faction of the Empire against it, as also was the corrupt Mothma led element of the Rebellion. The greediness of the new Senate, making Luke feel a need for the Jedi to be separate from galactic politics. The Skywalker heritage publically leaked to the Holonet. Ben and others finding out about Vader not from their parents or uncle, but from others. Ben feeling a need for the Jedi to do what was necessary and take on the family heritage/mantle. Luke later in the film explaining who Snoke was. I loved the mention of Sidious' rising. So mention Snoke being his real name, but who he was, he found out too late. Plageuis. Or Windu. Show us the corruption of Ben Solo, and THAT is why Luke went to confront him. Perhaps Ben lost a fellow student, a love interest, by disobeying both a Republic Order and Luke's principles of non interference, when he led an expedition (of his Knights of Ren, named after a Ren, a bird of action) to a world to fight off gangsters attempting to emulate his uncle's success against Jabba the Hutt. Have Luke not attempt to kill Ben, but Ben sees Luke and his wife Iden, attempting to kill Snoke, the only one who believed in him (having created the situation of villagers being attacked by the gangsters in the first place), and Ben jumping to his aid, then shocked as Luke is knocked out in the collapsing hut and Iden is mortally wounded. Conflicted as Anakin was at his betrayal of Windu in ROTS. Snoke too weak and mortally wounded by Skywalker and flees with Ben. Later tells Ben to purge himself of the past and arise anew as the Empire will, by not repeating its weaknesses of peacekeeping, but simply being FIRSTLY ABOUT ORDER. Luke WOKEN UP by R2-D2 and he sees his dying wife Iden Versio (to hell with the BF2 non trailer story) speak her last words to save Reyla, their daughter.

3. Both Ren and Luke showing expostion/flashbacks about the Jedi Temple being razed. Ben turning on his friends, struggling, but leading his Knights of Ren doing what has to be done. (These are the other students who believe in what he says). They offer the students in the Temple to "JOIN US, OR DIE." A friend of Ben's much younger resists, and Ben thinks he kills him, along with their leaders, by collapsing a wall on them, but one survives without his knowledge. In the process, he accidentally pulled down a column on his baby cousin (Luke's daughter) Reyla Skywalker. he becomes enraged that the Jedi made him do this and immediately starts killing them. The ruthlessness and experience of his older Knights of Ren mean that the mainly younger Jedi stand no chance. The Temple is razed to the ground. Luke arrives with R2-D2 in horror to see his Temple burning. But he feels that not all are dead. He uses the Force to extinguish the fire from rains from above. He walks in to see several Jedi younglings survived by virtue of their own skills. Firstly, a youngling called Poe who had exceptional pilot skills and flew a Jedi starfighter from the hangar into a small cavern to hide. Another Jedi female youngling (to be played by Anna Akana in TLJ, or else Rose), who always hides from view, who uses a Force bubble to obscure herself in an invisible bubble, having ran away and hid out of fear. The other boy Jedi, Ren's friend who's lightsaber skills allowed him to activate it and time his fall down the cliffs below. And Reyla, who's prowess with the Force was awoken, when she held the column above her (like Yoda in AOTC) without anyone realising. Luke uses the Force to SUPPRESS the memories of these Students and is advised by Yoda, Obi Wan ghosts to look for the secrets of the Force hidden at the First Temple, to counter this dark sider who has not been destroyed yet, Palpatine's master Plageuis, aka Snoke. Leia takes on Poe and the Anna Akana girl/Rose. The boy is sent to live with a friend on an Imperial world. But his family's ship is attacked (the First Order offer Imperial Remnant officers a chance to join them or die) and the children kidnapped. Reyla is sent to trusted Senator Lor Sella, who goes to the obscure planet of Jakku, where she grows up in the village, unaware of her heritage, save for dreams of the Temple, a vision of an island, and hearing the legend of Luke Skywalker. She is away from the village when it is burnt by the First Order and discovers BB8 on her way home.

4. Snoke, in TLJ, his reveal of who he is. Explanation of how he failed to see Palpatine turn on him, but was impressed. He retreated to the Outer Regions to further his study of conquering life, using what he discovered to prolong his own, though using the Dark Side at the expense of his physical form. He watched the Empire rise and fall. Heard of Skywalker. Or else, if he's Windu, have Windu disgusted with the Republic that betrayed the Jedi. He searches for the First Jedi texts, for the Secret of the Force vowing revenge. He finds a key, but not all of it, learning how to hide himself and prolong his life. He passionately believes now in using either Light or Dark, to do what must be done. And on the Empire's fall, believes in establishing Order first, no longer concerned with being human or kind. Either way, Seeing the Skywalkers' as a powerful bloodline to utilise. And that the Jedi could spark hope, so must be destroyed. Flashbacks of Palpatine's attack on him (whoever Snoke is). Have the IRONY of Snoke again failing to see his apprentice turn. And this time Ren is not arrogant like Palpatine who thought he killed him using Lightning. Ren snaps him in two with the Lightsaber. Have Snoke make his plan clear, total control. By force. And that the Starkiller base's weapon was created utilising a substance found on Jakku, which is why the Falcon was there, with Han and Chewie investigating for Leia.

5. Luke's attitude improved by seeing his daughter survive. Having discovered the secrets he needed to. Accepting the lightsaber and realising who Rey is. Luke being optimistic. Being alive. Luke doing the whole fight scene, but actually being there. And projecting some Force field (literally) to block Kylo's saber from penetrating his torso. Or else, Luke distracting Kylo with a projection, whilst he was secretly on the mountain of the base, activating the Rebel base's ion pulse canon, which he fires, disabling all the FO vehicles, buying time. Or else, Luke having first stopped over on Coruscant, persuading the Imperial Remnant to join the fight and be their leader. Imperial Star Destroyers arriving on scene to fight alongside Leia and others and coordinate their escape.

6. The FO Chase - have that Admiral Holdo be a traitor sharing their location. The mutiny scene was good keep it. The Bombers though, more respect paid to that pilot who sacrificed herself (Rose's sister). Perhaps have her having been a love interest so Poe feels it. Have her remembered and honoured. Alternatively have the chase scene end with the cruiser being self destructed to buy time, or act as a barrier/ shield against the ships fleeing out the side hangar. Have the Imperials roll up and the Resistance think this is it, it's over, then they see those Imperials firing on First Order ships, having responded to Leia's call, seeing her as the Heir to the Empire.

7. Canto Bright I liked. I liked the Fathers. I didn't really need to go too much into the slavery thing. Glad we saw it. But should have explained how the REPUBLIC did NOTHING. NOTHING to stop this, just as corrupt as the Old Republic. Have the chase scene a bit shorter, because it felt a bit too Harry Potter at times haha. Eliminate the need for the original cryptographer. Have the original one be the guy who betrayed them. I liked his moral lessons for Finn. Keep that. Otherwise, if Holdo is a traitor, have the cryptographer replaced with someone who knows how to crack the First Order command network to override the Supremacy's weapons to fire on the rest of it's fleet (faster ships capable of catching up with the Resistance quicker).

8. More exposition and recognition of the Jedi. Have the "Last Jedi" be plural. The Jedi younglings are rediscovered explaining their unique skills (Poe, pilot) etc. Rey realising her heritage and Ben realising who she is, she's his baby cousin. Or if really Rey is random, then Luke is alive and the main protagonist again. AND REY JOINS BEN. She goes to the dark side. Accepts her true destiny. But don't make her parents nobodies, make them someone. Certainly not drunks.

 

I could see this thread coming based on our last suggestion of a scene that you thought would have smoothed things over for a lot of people. Just about everyone who's passionately for or against this movie seems to write on some level so I suspect there will be plenty of engagement and this will just lead all of us back into our corners even more entrenched than before.

But as a big fan of this film, and even a big fan of the Yoda scene, if you allowed me 8 relatively simple changes that I think would have helped people get on board more they would be:

1) Have Luke lay out overtly why he thinks staying away will help more for anyone who doesn't want to hypothesize. Lay it out. Talk about his journey to Lew'el. Talk about how he thinks other Force users will rise up without the flawed Jedi teaching corrupting them. Even if it's on the nose just lay out where his mind is at more. Make it into the 3rd lesson.

2) Have Luke criticize Yoda for what he told him about staying away, and his own exile, even if just leads to Yoda better explaining the differences. It could have still helped more people get on board.

3) Have Yoda refer to his moment on the platform in Empire. Ask him why he retreated to that metal island and decided to abandon the fight against Vader in that moment. Let Luke answer that question for all to hear and retcon that suicide moment in TESB. Then have Yoda use that response as a life lesson for the present. Whatever it is. Add improved weight and meaning to both that scene and the present.

4) Have Luke provide some minimal backstory for Snoke. Nothing crazy. Even something as simple as this:

LUKE: For a long time there was balance. And then an awakening. There'd been others before. Other Dark Side presences but many found their way back. Others died. None strong enough to lead to imbalance. I was focused on the Temple and the students. Jedi hubris once again let another Master rise right under the Order's nose. Before I could place Snoke to the Outer Regions I realized what I should have sensed sooner. He'd found us first. He'd found Ben first.

5) Have Snoke refer to the KoR as out on a mission of some kind. Just refer to them to keep them alive but out doing something else that could come back in IX.

6) Have Finn begin the Storm Trooper uprising on the Supremacy. Have all of those guys end up killed but plant that seed. Johnson wrote it. It was a great idea. I hope it's back for IX.

7) Have Luke provide some small instruction and feedback while she's swinging the saber and practicing.

8) I don't have any big problem with the Rey vs Luke escalation to fighting but having Luke even use the Force to disarm the saber from her hand as she raises it and just say something like, "I can see you're angry with me. No good can come from weaponry in this situation. Trust me. I've learned this the hard way.

(Saber gets pulled from her hand to his and he tosses it over his shoulder again)

"Now, let's talk."

I'd be even more happy with those moments.

 

This film is the longest Star Wars film. I think if you cut out some of the humor and a bit of the Canto Bight stuff, and splice in some logical additions to maintain continuity, you could end up with a better film.

 

Yes I think same could be said for Force Awakens. We needed exposition, flashbacks, continuity insertion to fit continuing from Episode VI and tie the SAGA together.

I still think Rancors on a spaceship would have been funnier than Rathars. Maybe Rancors versus AT-AT's in TLJ. Wave after wave charging out of that cave.

Anyway, I suggested some exposition and continuity above regarding this film and TFA. Admittedly long, but I feel like otherwise, we should ask Lucas for what he would have done. I would defer to that. But don't feel the writers really came up with a plan here.

 

Good. I am at a full stop on this point as I would need to see the film a second time to pinpoint a best location. Kylo need only refer to an unnamed figure that Rey cannot know, but the audience cannot mistake. Rey digests this information only as it pertains to this individual, Kylo. Rey's assessment of sympathy goes this way or that, and all boats surrounding this point rise.

I retract that Kylo can refer to an unnamed group that Rey might be able to figure out, that the audience cannot mistake, because there is no credible hold that that group can possibly have over Kylo, and so he cannot use that for leverage into Rey's sympathy. That would be inorganically shoehorned. I have an idea for Hux on this point I'll let pass.

Based on Ender's comment a 10-word line about Snoke from Luke to Rey would do the same job. Rey, serving as several forms of audience avatar, should be the recipient of exposition about Snoke.

(A line about the First Order would be suitable between Hux and Poe, where Poe is an avatar to a different purpose than Rey. It could even stretch to the gray scape between 'fascist' proscription against taking initiative and the 'democratic' liberty to take initiative. That opening scene could get some humor in and also some extra insight about context, but also some very thin drops about ideological difference. It could incorporate a Hux line, "Disobeying orders, again, are we, Poe?" Then retort that incorporates information and some comic relief. Do two or three cycles of this.)

 

I wouldn't change a thing. It's perfect as is.

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